If you want to be under the Law, don't keep the Sabbath.

[tall73]

To my thinking Acts 15, Acts 21 and Paul's writings indicate that gentiles were not required to keep the whole law, or to be circumcised.

Paul says they died to the law to be married to another. We have been released from the law:

Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


The gentiles then are not under the specific law given to Israel for a time and purpose.

But that by no means indicates that they don't have to follow moral principles. God still wants them to love God and love their neighbor. The whole mosaic law hung on those elements. It was one specific expression of those great principles. And much of the specifics still hold true.

But Paul emphasizes that circumcision etc. is not something that gentiles need to worry about. They are under the obligation to love, but not to keep the law.

Instead the focus is on living by the Spirit as opposed to the flesh.

Now Paul will still use the law to point out specific applications of moral principles. The law was still a direct expression by God to show His will. Even if the gentiles were not under that law, the moral principles that are behind it still do apply and they can learn from them.

So he mentions a blessing from honoring your father and mother. But it is more general, long life rather than the more specific long remaining in the land God gave to Israel.

Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.


Exo 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.


While the specific land promise as part of the covenant with Israel would not apply to gentiles in Ephesus in the same way, there was still a principle of blessing from honoring mother and father.

 

[tall73]

Some see the "moral law" as being the ten commandments. But I don't see this spelled out anywhere. There were laws dealing with morality in the whole law, dealing with sexual boundaries with family or animals, etc. or dealing with oaths, divorce, and other items that are not immediately addressed in the ten commandments.

Those moral principles are still necessary to keep. Nothing about Jesus' death does away with the idea that we are not to have sex with animals, etc.

 

[tall73]

Hopefully in this discussion we can agree that a Christian who is a murderer, adulterer, etc. and does not repent will not inherit the kingdom of God. The Scriptures are clear on that point. So we are not really arguing the notion that there are still moral imperatives.

 

[tall73]

If we are not allowed to break the law how will anyone be saved?

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


There was sin even before the law was spelled out. The Mosaic law spelled out sin, in regards to moral issues, but sin was there before.

And death reigned over all even over those who had not sinned after the "similitude of Adam's transgression."

They had not broken specific spelled out commandments. But they still sinned. And death still reigned.

Since the law was given moral principles are even more clearly known.

Gentiles not being under the law does not remove sin. Nor does it remove the need for living according to moral principles. But it does remove the necessity for gentiles to keep those elements of the MOSAIC law that dealt with items connected particularly to Israel.

And the law is still useful for pointing out sin. As I noted above while the gentiles were not under the specific law given to Israel they still could learn from the moral principles in the law given to Israel.

 

[Cribstyl]

All mankind is under the Law and subject to the death penalty.

Truth is, the wages of sin is death, but absent of law does not mean the penalty of sin not death. The flood in Noah's day came as a result of sinfulness. Destruction of Sodom and Gamorah was also a result of sinfulness.

The scripture teach that we're not under the law
Scriptures say clearly

Rom 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Gal 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The question is, what part of "we're not under the law" dont you understand?

Jesus, though He knew no sin became sin so He too was under the Law. There are two aspects of sin we need to understand.
There is the sinful act and the sinful condition.
Mankind need not break the Law to be a sinner.
A sinner is one who is separted from God and as a result of being separated we do sinful things.

Once we come alive unto God through Jesus we can still do sinful things but now a contriteness rersults.

Contriteness: feeling or showing sorrow and remorse for a sin or shortcoming.

Here is the process of sin leading to death.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

The desire or temptation is not sin and the sin is not the death. The death comes when the sin that is born is nurtured until it becomes full-grown.

Yea, James 1:15 confirms that the wages of sin is death.
What do you mean by "nurtured until it becomes full grown?" Keep in mind that Christ said adultery is based on the intent of your heart.


The Gospel teaches us that love fulfills the law.
Jam 2:8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:


Rom 13:8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 6:2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1Th 4:9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

 

[k4c]

Jesus did come under the whole system, the whole law. And even in Matthew Chapter 5 we see him expanding on not only the ten commandments but other commandments from the law as well.

So I would agree with you there. In fact, while we come at it from different roads I don't think we would be that far off on what gentiles are still to do as to moral requirements, with of course the notable difference on the Sabbath.

Without a doubt Paul lists many moral imperatives for the gentiles. These also without a doubt include many things from the Old Covenant law.

The difference seems to be how we get there. Am I right in thinking that you believe some laws were fulfilled and some not?

Or do you have some other means of accounting for why you do not keep all the law?

Under the new covenant we live by the words of Jesus and the example He set for us. He magnified the Law and brought honor to them. He taught many times on how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of needs pertaining to life and service to God be basically removed the ritualistic keeping of the Sabbath and made it more relational and humanitarian. He never once changed the Sabbath day to another nor did He do away with it. What we find in the teachings of Jesus, regarding the Sabbath, is a removal of the burdens through ritualisim that were placed on it as it relates to things that can be done on the Sabbath.

The things that no longer need to be kept are the shadows that painted a picture of the life and work of Jesus. These shadows had to do with foods, drinks, washings and special days, which were all instituted as a result of sin. The sacredness of the seventh day of creation was blessed and made holy before sin and is not part of the shadows, which came as a result of sin.

 

[k4c]

To my thinking Acts 15, Acts 21 and Paul's writings indicate that gentiles were not required to keep the whole law, or to be circumcised.

Paul says they died to the law to be married to another. We have been released from the law:

Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


The gentiles then are not under the specific law given to Israel for a time and purpose.

But that by no means indicates that they don't have to follow moral principles. God still wants them to love God and love their neighbor. The whole mosaic law hung on those elements. It was one specific expression of those great principles. And much of the specifics still hold true.

But Paul emphasizes that circumcision etc. is not something that gentiles need to worry about. They are under the obligation to love, but not to keep the law.

Instead the focus is on living by the Spirit as opposed to the flesh.

Now Paul will still use the law to point out specific applications of moral principles. The law was still a direct expression by God to show His will. Even if the gentiles were not under that law, the moral principles that are behind it still do apply and they can learn from them.

So he mentions a blessing from honoring your father and mother. But it is more general, long life rather than the more specific long remaining in the land God gave to Israel.

Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.


Exo 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.


While the specific land promise as part of the covenant with Israel would not apply to gentiles in Ephesus in the same way, there was still a principle of blessing from honoring mother and father.

I agree the Gentiles and Jews are both called to love God and neighbor. The firist four commandments teach us how to love God and the last six teach us how to love neighbor. Every sin and crime committed in the world has it's root in the Ten Commandments. When you break any one of the Ten Commandments you violate love.

As far as circumcision goes. Both Jew and Gentile are required to be circumcised under the new covenant.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

This circumcision goes for both Jew and Gentile.

As far as living by the Spirit, the Spirit will convict of sin, which is defined at it's basic level through the Law. Under the new covenant we will be influence by the spirit of the Law, which is love for God and love for neigbor. We will obey the Law, including keeping the Sabbath, but we will go much further than just a ritualistic keeping of the Law in that we will be moved by the indwelling Spirit to care for the needs of others as well.

There is a blessing and a joy in keeping all the commandments for both Jew and Gentile for the Ten Commandments are holy, good and right.

 

[k4c]

Truth is, the wages of sin is death, but absent of law does not mean the penalty of sin not death. The flood in Noah's day came as a result of sinfulness. Destruction of Sodom and Gamorah was also a result of sinfulness.

The scripture teach that we're not under the law
Scriptures say clearly

Rom 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Gal 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The question is, what part of "we're not under the law" dont you understand?

Yea, James 1:15 confirms that the wages of sin is death.
What do you mean by "nurtured until it becomes full grown?" Keep in mind that Christ said adultery is based on the intent of your heart.


The Gospel teaches us that love fulfills the law.
Jam 2:8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:


Rom 13:8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 6:2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1Th 4:9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

It's very important to interpret verses using the Bible and not use verses to interpret the Bible.

You can't just say we are not under the Law without addressing the verses that say, "Though we are not under the Law does not give us the freedom to break the Law". Until you are able to bring into untity these verses you are preaching half truths. You have to make all the verses fit together in light of what the Bible is saying as a whole otherwise you preach confusion.

 

[bugkiller]

I agree the Gentiles and Jews are both called to love God and neighbor. The firist four commandments teach us how to love God and the last six teach us how to love neighbor. Every sin and crime committed in the world has it's root in the Ten Commandments. When you break any one of the Ten Commandments you violate love.

As far as circumcision goes. Both Jew and Gentile are required to be circumcised under the new covenant.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

This circumcision goes for both Jew and Gentile.

As far as living by the Spirit, the Spirit will convict of sin, which is defined at it's basic level through the Law. Under the new covenant we will be influence by the spirit of the Law, which is love for God and love for neigbor. We will obey the Law, including keeping the Sabbath, but we will go much further than just a ritualistic keeping of the Law in that we will be moved by the indwelling Spirit to care for the needs of others as well.

There is a blessing and a joy in keeping all the commandments for both Jew and Gentile for the Ten Commandments are holy, good and right.

No there is no profit in cirsumcision Gal 5:6.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

It's very important to interpret verses using the Bible and not use verses to interpret the Bible.

You can't just say we are not under the Law without addressing the verses that say, "Though we are not under the Law does not give us the freedom to break the Law". Until you are able to bring into untity these verses you are preaching half truths. You have to make all the verses fit together in light of what the Bible is saying as a whole otherwise you preach confusion.

If you are not under (subject to) the law you can not break the law.

bugkiller

 

[k4c]

No there is no profit in cirsumcision Gal 5:6.

bugkiller

Circumcision of the heart is manditory as part of the new covenant.

 

[k4c]

If you are not under (subject to) the law you can not break the law.

bugkiller

That's a personal conclusion you have come to based on half truths that can't be proven through Scripture as a whole.

I can teach, using only half Scriptures, that Jesus is only a man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

I can keep using the same verses over and over again that say Jesus is a man while ignoring all the other verses that say Jesus is also God. This is what you guys do when trying to prove we don't have to obey the Ten Commandments. You continue to use the same verses that say we are not under the Law while rejecting the verses that say, "Though we are not under the Law we are not to break the Law". Until you work these verses into your faith and understand what it means to be not be under the Law in light of the new testament as a whole you will only have half truth and we all know how Satan loves half truths.

The Law on stone under the old covenant dealt with the outward actions of man. As long as these principles remain on stone they will always bring death because the outward man must die and die daily. But under the new covenant the principles portrayed on stone will be written in the heart and will bring joy and wholeness and will manifest outwardly in of lives as love for God and love for mankind. Those who have been born again will hunger and thirst for the principles of God's Law as a newborn baby.

2 Corinthians 3:3 You are manifestly an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

 

[addo]

So he mentions a blessing from honoring your father and mother. But it is more general, long life rather than the more specific long remaining in the land God gave to Israel.
Exo 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

While the specific land promise as part of the covenant with Israel would not apply to gentiles in Ephesus in the same way, there was still a principle of blessing from honoring mother and father.

It would. Even if we know the audience was Israel, God didn't say Israel, but "you". You are you. Your land is not the land of Israel I suppose. God gave me as a living place Romania. If I honor my parents I'll have a long life in the land God has given me to live in.

So it does apply to Gentiles as well. Because it doesn't specify the land of Israel exactly, but your land and you aren't Israel. Perhaps Italy is the land of the Gentiles God has given him to live in? Doesn't it apply?

 

[RND]

So he mentions a blessing from honoring your father and mother. But it is more general, long life rather than the more specific long remaining in the land God gave to Israel.

Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

It's hard to miss Paul's clarification that Israel is typology for the whole earth.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It's hard to miss Paul's clarification that Israel is typology for the whole earth.

Apparently it's rather easy to miss for I don't see it. Where does Paul say that Israel is typology for the whole earth?

Paul seems to affirm that Israel and Gentiles are distinct entities:

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." Romans 9:30-32
​

BFA

 

[RND]

Apparently it's rather easy to miss for I don't see it. Where does Paul say that Israel is typology for the whole earth?

BFA

In his letter to a predominantly Gentile church in Ephesus Paul applied the promise of the inheritance of the land of Israel given to Abram specifically to Gentile children of Christian believers who are obedient.
The fifth commandment promised that obedient children would live long on the land the Lord God was giving them. Paul applied the same promise to the children of Christian parents living 700-800 miles from the land of the Bible. These children of Gentile and Jewish Christians who submit willingly to the authority of their parents will, as Paul promises, enjoy long life on the earth.

The "Land" in the New Covenant context has now come to fulfillment in the purposes of God which was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. So the limitations of the land type under the Old Covenant has been broken so that it stretches as far as the Great Commission reaches which is to the uttermost ends of the earth.

All the promises of God were fulfilled by Jesus Christ and will not be fulfilled in a modern, secular, nation/state.

2Cr 1:20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In his letter to a predominantly Gentile church in Ephesus Paul applied the promise of the inheritance of the land of Israel given to Abram specifically to Gentile children of Christian believers who are obedient.

Indeed. In Galatians 3, he adds that we are heirs according to the promises made to Abraham and not according to laws that were added 430 years after Abraham. I am an heir according to the promise made to Abraham, but this does not suggest that Israel is typology for the whole earth.

What we see instead is Paul consistently contrasting Israel and Gentiles as distinct entities.

All the promises of God were fulfilled by Jesus Christ and will not be fulfilled in a modern, secular, nation/state.

If all has been fulfilled, then we should act as though all has been fulfilled. Holy convocations were intended to be fulfilled. When they are fulfilled, their obligation has been fully met.

BFA

 

[RND]

What we see instead is Paul consistently contrasting Israel and Gentiles as distinct entities.

Really? Where?

If all has been fulfilled, then we should act as though all has been fulfilled.

I agree. No more turning on the evening news and wondering and worrying about what happened in modern Israel!

Holy convocations were intended to be fulfilled.

They were.

When they are fulfilled, their obligation has been fully met.

In Christ.

 

[k4c]

It was by grace that God chose a people in the Old Testament to reveal His charater and will to a fallen world. It was through these choosen people that God gave His will seen in His Law. It was through these people that God gave the shadows that painted a picture of God's saving work through the life, death and words of Jesus. Because of this, these people thought they had an advantage over all other people. They became proud and self righteous and very exclusive.

When Jesus came He broke down that wall of division making two people into one people. In Christ there is no more Jew and Gentile or us against them. All are counted as sinners and as sinner, we are all on equal ground.

Through Jesus we can have forgiveness of sin that bring equality. Just as we are all sinners and on equal ground without Jesus we can all be righteous and on equal ground with Jesus. Through Jesus we can have the Law influencing the inward man in the heart through love rather than an outward influence of the Law through fear. Through the indwelling of the Spirit evenyone can know God on a personal level, everyone can know the will of God not just the people God chose in Old Testament times.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' says the Lord. "For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

Hebrews 8:10-12 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.''

If you can't see this or have not allowed God to write His Law in your heart in order that it manifest itself in our lives as love for God and love for others then you are still in your sin and are at emnity with God.

Romans 8:7 Because the old sinful nature within us is against God. It never did obey God's laws and it never will.

If this is you then you have no business teaching or preaching. You have no business trying to lead people in the ways of God when you have no light in you. You cannot do the will of God if you resist that which defines the will of God. You can't love God or neighbor if you refuse that standard by which God defines godly love. You cannot do rightousness if you're an enemy of that which reveals righteousness.

Pray for forgiveness and maybe, through God's grace and mercy, He will grant you the gift of repentence.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Really? Where?

Throughout Paul's writings, I find a distinction between Gentiles and Jews, between the uncircumcised and the circumcised. I find nothing that would lead me to conclude that Gentiles become Jews.

"Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also." Romans 3

"And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. " Romans 9

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." Romans 9

"When Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." Romans 2

"For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." 1 Corinthians 1

"But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised." Galatians 2
​

I agree. No more turning on the evening news and wondering and worrying about what happened in modern Israel!

They were.

In Christ.

Since we agree that the holy convocations were fulfilled and that the obligations of these holy convocations have been fully met in Christ, do we also agree that the seventh-day sabbath is one of the holy convocations?