Who is the first Christian to deny the Primacy of Peter or his successors?

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

When Paul got up in Peters face cause the all dissembled in him too huh?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Paul wasnt in their "click"

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

The first one that ever heard of it and every one of them since

That is a straight forward answer.

 

[Fireinfolding]

WHAT??

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Paul wasn't in their "click"

Well, I wonder why.

 

[chestertonrules]

.

The first one that ever heard of it and every one of them since

Feel free to provide a quote. The earlier the better.

It is important for discovering the Truth.


Something like this:

Cyprian of Carthage


"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

 

[chestertonrules]

When Paul got up in Peters face cause the all dissembled in him too huh?

Paul criticized Peter's behavior, not his doctrine.

Paul went to hear Peter's teaching regarding the necessity of circumcision for the Jews, and he abided by Peter's revelation.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Feel free to provide a quote. The earlier the better.

It is important for discovering the Truth.


Something like this:

Cyprian of Carthage


"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

When Jesus asks who did they say that he was (in contrast to who do men say I am, it does show he asked THEM (plurally) it was simply answered in Peter is how I regard it because when you look at the verse which speaks to the foundation the church is built upon its on the PLURALITY of the apostles (of which Jesus himself is "counted") pertaining to "their profession"

I dont get the chair thingy though Chestertonrules, I think I've heard the seat of Moses deal but its just not jiving with me.

 

[Deut 5:29]

Feel free to provide a quote. The earlier the better.

It is important for discovering the Truth.


Something like this:

Cyprian of Carthage


"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Actually Jesus was calling Peter a pebble and saying He would build His Church on Himself, The Rock.
Please give me a break. God's Church was not, nor ever could be built on a mere man.
That is funny though.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Paul criticized Peter's behavior, not his doctrine.

Paul went to hear Peter's teaching regarding the necessity of circumcision for the Jews, and he abided by Peter's revelation.

Christs doctrine is a manner of behavior though, not walking uprightly verses otherwise, it says "take heed to thyself and thy doctrine in doing this you save yourself AND those that hear thee right?

Fear of man bringeth a snare, same offence Peter became an offence to Christ when he was mindful of the things that be of men over God correct? He feared the "circumcision" that which be of men is how I regard it.

 

[Dorothea]

As John Chrysostom stated, James was Bishop of Jerusalem, Peter was Bishop of the world.

There is no explicit rejection of Peter's primacy by the apostles.

I don't think there was or is any Apostle of the world. Each Apostle was assigned to certain parts of the world. They each had their part in spreading His Word. I do believe Peter had the honor of answering for the Apostles in certain circumstances, but if all were present, they would all be able to answer for themselves. St. Peter founded 2 or 3 churches (I can't remember off the top of my head), with one of those being Rome, which was founded by both he and St. Paul. St. Andrew founded the church in Constantinople, and St. Paul found many churches in Greece. St. John also spread the gospel in certain parts. He was also singled out to write Revelation, and the only Apostle who wasn't killed. Then there was St. Matthew who found churches...was it in Asia? St. Thomas was somewhere around Indonesia or India. My memory isn't too great on those specifics. Anyhow, that's the way I understand the Apostles and how they worked, which was together and separately (wherever they were traveling, of course).

 

[Dorothea]

How do Orthodox Christians honor the primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

I think the EOC does reject it (really the supremacy by the Patriarch in Rome and such) and has since the schism because if it didn't, there wouldn't have probably been the schism (along w/some other minor reasons compared to that one).

 

[boswd]

Sites like this particular one I can read and understand, without much complication.

I also like this site here, which I find quite helpful and easy to navigate. I like simple, straight forward resources and information.

CARM? Ohhhh NOOO. LOL LOL you think GT can get nasty, that place is where the real Catholic haters go and breed and raise families.

 

[chestertonrules]

Actually Jesus was calling Peter a pebble and saying He would build His Church on Himself, The Rock.
Please give me a break. God's Church was not, nor ever could be built on a mere man.
That is funny though.

No he wasn't.

Jesus spoke Aramaic. He named Peter Cephas, or Rock.

I wouldn't be so quick to deny the words of Jesus if I were you.

 

[boswd]

Actually Jesus was calling Peter a pebble and saying He would build His Church on Himself, The Rock.
Please give me a break. God's Church was not, nor ever could be built on a mere man.
That is funny though.

actually that theory has been debunked by the fact Christ spoke Aramaic.
and besides throw your theory into the sentence, sounds rather stupid doesn't it?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Actually Jesus was calling Peter a pebble and saying He would build His Church on Himself, The Rock.
Please give me a break. God's Church was not, nor ever could be built on a mere man.
That is funny though.

Cephas is by interpretation a stone indeed

John 1:42 Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Of the same Peter says, "Ye also" are the same as "me" saying...

1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

WE also its a "type" we are acceptable to God in Christ (the Rock) of the profession

Mark 8:27 Whom do men say that I am?

1Cr 12:3 For ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So he asks them (this is being pointed out)

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Same principal

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Stone laid in Sion given and laid by the Father

2Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Which speaks to Christ


1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The Spiritual Rock here

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Ephes 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Built upon the foundation of apostles is in the plural

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Peter just answered

Jesus is "counted" as he also is both Rock and Stone (the builders can indeed reject)

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.



His profession given him of the Father which is the Stone laid in Sion (The Church of the firstborn) Flesh and blood did not reveal it to Him

This Pauls same acknowledgement

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:



The rock is Christ in them, nevertheless they also as Peter says YE ALSO are as lively stones (to Him coming) built up a spiritual house, accepted of God in Christ (the stone laid in Sion) and built on the plurality of the apostles Christ Jesus being First and Cheif corner stone and the Apostle of "their profession"

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

I regard Christ as the rock of the apostles profession though

 

[chestertonrules]

Cephas is by interpretation a stone indeed

John 1:42 Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Of the same Peter says, "Ye also" are the same as "me" saying...

1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

WE also its a "type" we are acceptable to God in Christ (the Rock) of the profession

Mark 8:27 Whom do men say that I am?

1Cr 12:3 For ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So he asks them (this is being pointed out)

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Same principal

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Stone laid in Sion given and laid by the Father

2Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Which speaks to Christ


1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The Spiritual Rock here

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Ephes 2:20 And are built upon the foundation ofthe apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Built upon the foundation of apostles is in the plural

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom sayye that I am?

Peter just answered

Jesus is "counted" as he also is both Rock and Stone (the builders can indeed reject)

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.



His profession given him of the Father which is the Stone laid in Sion (The Church of the firstborn) Flesh and blood did not reveal it to Him

This Pauls same acknowledgement

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:



The rock is Christ in them, nevertheless they also as Peter says YE ALSO are as lively stones (to Him coming) built up a spiritual house, accepted of God in Christ (the stone laid in Sion) and built on the plurality of the apostles Christ Jesus being First and Cheif corner stone and the Apostle of "their profession"

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

I regard Christ as the rock of the apostles profession though

Why do you think Jesus changed Simon's name to Cephas?

Why do you think Jesus gave Simon the keys to the Kingdom?

 

[Standing Up]

Not a trick question, just curious. I don't know the answer.

This might help from c155AD--

But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom,33143314 departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,—a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,—that, namely, which is handed down by the Church.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

1. At this time, while Anicetus was at the head of the church of Rome,11121112 Irenæus relates that Polycarp, who was still alive, was at Rome,and that he had a conference with Anicetus on a question concerning the day of the paschal feast.1114
NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

16. And when the blessed Polycarp was at Rome17131713 in the time of Anicetus, and they disagreed a little about certain other things, they immediately made peace with one another, not caring to quarrel over this matter. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the other apostles with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.
NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Peter may or may not have had primacy, but obviously those who would claim to follow Peter held no authority for the Church. In fact the lesson from this episode is that we should all choose to follow apostolic authority, not customs of presbyters.

(Incidentally Peter and Paul taught the same thing as the other apostles as regards this issue in Antioch (and Alexandria through Mark). We know this because Chrysostom tells us so (as does Clement of Alexandria). Truly Rome did teach "customs of presbyters", which in this case, Irenaeus tells us originated with Sixtus I.)

Peace to you---

 

[Fireinfolding]

Why do you think Jesus changed Simon's name to Cephas?

Why do you think Jesus gave Simon the keys to the Kingdom?

He also gives a stone with a new name upon it dont you think? And no man cometh to the Father but "by ME" and what he opens no man shuts "setting" an open door (even as He is) before them.

Even Paul forgave in "the person of Christ" As ambassadors of Christ they stand in His "Stead"

And Peter says

2Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Ever notice its a "ministered entrance"?

 

[chestertonrules]

He also gives a stone with a new name upon it dont you think? And no man cometh to the Father but "by ME" and what he opens no man shuts "setting" an open door (even as He is) before them.

Even Paul forgave in "the person of Christ" As ambassadors of Christ they stand in His "Stead"

And Peter says

2Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Ever notice its a "ministered entrance"?

I don't understand what this has to do with my questions.