Does Water Baptism Save You? Is it Required?

[jmacvols]

Two problems here. 1) Abraham is given as an example of justification while being uncircumcised (4:10), and yet he was the father of the Jews.

Rom 4:9 "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Rom 4:10 "How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."

In the context, Paul is arguing against false Judiazing teachers that said one had to perform the OT work of circumcision to be saved. Paul shows that Abraham's faith was reckoned righteous while Abraham was in uncircumcision. Abraham lived prior to the Mosaical OT where circumcision was not a mandate. Paul point is to show that faith, an obedient faith like Abraham had, is what justifies, not the OT work of circumcision.

2) 2:29 clearly defines a Jew as someone who is one inwardly, not outwardly. Someone can be a true Jew without the physical sign of circumcision; circumcision of the heart is what defines one as a true Jew. As an exact parallel, outward baptism is not what defines the Christian. Inward baptism by the Spirit is what defines a Christian. One does not need outward baptism to be a Christian. It is commanded and ought to be done, but it is not a requirement, much like physical circumcision.

Circumcision is not a parallel to baptism. If so, one would have to be baptized at 8 days old, therefore one would be baptized without first having faith, repentance, or confessing with the mouth, only men could be baptized/females could not be baptized.

 

[jmacvols]

Again, context matters. Including that the phrase "now saves you" is taken out of context. For one thing, the persons being baptized are no more saved by water baptism than Noah was through the flood. Salvation is by God through faith. Heb. 11:7 tells us:

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Noah acted on his faith in obedience to God, but his salvation (righteousness) came through faith, not as a result on his obedience in building the ark,

In addition, the salvation spoken here is not from the penalty of sin (justification) but from a soiled conscience (ie, sanctification). Being obedient to God in baptism will save them from the knowledge of wrong in their conscience. Peter is not talking here about saving souls from everlasting torment.

You can twist the context all you care to but you will never change those words: BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US.

The type: eight souls were saved by water.

The anti-type: baptism doth also now save us.

In the KJV the underlying Greek word for "like figure" is antitypos, meaning according to Strong:

1) a thing formed after some pattern
2) a thing resembling another, its counterpart
a) something in the Messianic times which answers to the type, as baptism corresponds to the deluge (1 Pet 3:21)

So as Noah was saved by water, the counterpart is us now being saved by water baptism.Peter then tells us what baptism is not and what it is. It is not for putting away the filth of the flesh, the water of the flood cleansed the earth the filth of the flesh. The filth of the soul, [sin] is cleansed away in water baptism.

But baptism is the appeal to God for a good conscience, one submits to baptism as an appeal to God for a good conscience...."Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," NASB.

Nope. Baptism is a result of saving faith not a requirement for saving faith. We get baptized in obedience to Christ because we are saved not for salvation.

Baptism remits sins, so one is lost in his sins till he is baptized. The order of Acts 2:38 and Mk16:16 put baptism BEFORE salvation.

You say "we get baptized in obedience to Christ". That would mean one is in disobedience (sin) till he is baptized.

If that's the case then we are in control of our salvation and Jesus dies for nothing. Paul tells us in Romans 5:1,

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

....and we do not see Paul saying we are justified by faith alone.
We are justified by faith like Abraham had and Abraham had an obedient faith. When he was told to leave his house, land and kindred, he obeyed by leaving, When he was told to offer Isaac, he obeyed by going to offer Isaac. Abraham did not have a dead faith alone.

I guess Paul must be teaching heresy, huh? Do you think that James and Paul are teaching in contradiction?

James and Paul are not talking about the same kind of works. James speaks of obedient works that saves us, where Paul says works of the OT do not justify us today, Rom 4:5.

LOL!!! You can twist the scripture any which way you want to but if baptism was needed for salvation then Paul just did everyone a disservice and preached a different gospel. Sure, Paul was battling some that were elevating them above the gospel, however, the statement that Paul said is all encompassing.

..

Sorry, but Paul was trying to get rid of the division at Corinth by showing that all the Corinthians should be "of Christ" and Paul shows that being of Christ REQUIRES that Christ be crucified for you and you be baptized n the name of Christ. To say otherwise is twist ing what Paul said. The 'not-but elliptical' statements further prove your position logically wrong.

Lets look at the Gospel of John. Only faith is listed as a condition for receiving eternal life (3:16, 18, 36, 5:24, 20:31, among many). If there were more conditions, then John's entire gospel is not only seriously misleading and inadequate but never actually presents the actual plan of salvation. This, of course, is absurd. John himself tells us in 20:31,

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

The fact that baptism is not mentioned as a condition for salvation anywhere in the gospel of John means that it is not necessary for salvation but a result of salvation.

First, you cannot cherry pick one verse while disregarding all other salvic verses. To get the truth it takes "all the counsel of God", it takes the sum of God thoughts, Psa 139:17. Taking consideration of all salvic verses, one must believe, repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10 and be baptized Acts 2:38.

Secondly, just because baptism is not mention in every single salvic verse does not mean it is not necessary. There are verses that do not specifically mention belief, the blood of Christ or grace. Since these verses do not specifically mentions any of these, then do you think none of these are essential to salvation?

Lastly, belief in the NT can be used as a snecdoche. Comparing Acts 2:41 with 44 we see the ones that "believed" n v44 were the ones that accepted Peter's words and were baptized in v41. So "believed" in v44 includes baptized in v41.

 

[anthony55]

Water baptism in our day and time is useless, for the church has apostacized from the Faith.

 

[BrotherBob]

In Mk 16:16 we are told by the one Lord that one belief and one baptism saves.




The purpose of Jesus being baptized was to "fulfill all righteousness". He had no sins to be remitted.

Baptism is for the remission of sins, not because of it. The order of Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16 put baptism BEFORE salvation, not after.

Again you fail to address the scripture. Is there one baptism or not?
Is it water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I baptize you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; John 1:33.
Salvation is conditioned solely on faith in Jesus Christ. Nearly 200
times faith, or belief is stated as the single condition in the NT.

 

[BrotherBob]

In Acts 10:44 The Holy Spirit fell upon all. In the case of these gentile converts, the gift of the Spirit came before they were baptized in water (v. 48)
Normally the Spirit is given at the moment of faith (Acts 10:44; 19:2; Eph. 1:
13). The spirit is the seal that is given at the time of conversion. (2 Cor. 1:22
; 5:5; Eph. 1:14). The absence of the Spirit is a proof of being unsaved(Rom.
8:9)

 

[nobdysfool]

Water baptism in our day and time is useless, for the church has apostacized from the Faith.

Except for you, though....right?

 

[Hentenza]

You can twist the context all you care to but you will never change those words: BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US.

The type: eight souls were saved by water.

The anti-type: baptism doth also now save us.

In the KJV the underlying Greek word for "like figure" is antitypos, meaning according to Strong:

1) a thing formed after some pattern
2) a thing resembling another, its counterpart
a) something in the Messianic times which answers to the type, as baptism corresponds to the deluge (1 Pet 3:21)

So as Noah was saved by water, the counterpart is us now being saved by water baptism.Peter then tells us what baptism is not and what it is. It is not for putting away the filth of the flesh, the water of the flood cleansed the earth the filth of the flesh. The filth of the soul, [sin] is cleansed away in water baptism.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Peter is teaching that the fact that 8 people were in an ark and went through the whole judgment, and yet were unharmed, is analogous to the Christian’s experience in salvation by being in (union with) Christ, identified with Christ our "Ark" of salvation so to speak.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Peter is not teaching that immersion in water or sprinkling saves you. Peter pictures the waters of baptism as corresponding to (prefigured by) the deliverance of Noah’s family by water. Noah and his family's identification with the Ark (by going into the ark when the flood came) is a type of the believer's identification with Christ (by grace through faith) in which he/she identifies with Christ's finished work on the Cross and in so doing in a manner of speaking that person is now safe within the "Ark", Who is Christ Jesus Himself.
[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]This is furthered clarified and upheld by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 11 verse 7,[/FONT]


7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.


Notice that Noah's (and the eight in the Ark) salvation was by faith not by baptism. You can't interpret one passage to mean one thing while ignoring others.

But baptism is the appeal to God for a good conscience, one submits to baptism as an appeal to God for a good conscience...."Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," NASB.

Works don't save. Baptism is a work. Baptism without faith is simply a washing of dirt from the flash. One must first believe or are you suggesting that one believes after baptism?

Baptism remits sins, so one is lost in his sins till he is baptized. The order of Acts 2:38 and Mk16:16 put baptism BEFORE salvation.

No. Christ finished work of the cross remits sins. None of our works remit sin. None. There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves.

1. Acts 2:38- 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

One must repent. One must believe first. The use of the conjunction καὶ makes baptism a separate event from repentance. The use of the preposition εἰς can denote "for" but the translation is consistent with "because of". Forgiveness of sins are always by faith not by any act that we do. Many passages teach this, for example:

Mark 2:5
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

No baptism here. The sins of the paralytic were remitted by faith.

Luke 7
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

The sins of the sinful woman were remitted by faith. No baptism here.

Jesus told Paul:

Acts 26
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Again, sins are forgiven only by faith in Christ Jesus. No baptism here.

Eph. 1

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Again, the forgiveness of sins are through His blood not through baptism.

You say "we get baptized in obedience to Christ". That would mean one is in disobedience (sin) till he is baptized.

No. Was the thief on the cross "disobedient"? Can one be obedient apart from faith?

....and we do not see Paul saying we are justified by faith alone.
We are justified by faith like Abraham had and Abraham had an obedient faith. When he was told to leave his house, land and kindred, he obeyed by leaving, When he was told to offer Isaac, he obeyed by going to offer Isaac. Abraham did not have a dead faith alone.

Did Paul add anything? Did Paul give us an incomplete statement? I think not. Abraham's works were a result of his faith not a condition for his faith. All works are not of ourselves but those that the Father prepared in advance for us. We do those works because we have faith not for faith. We do these works from salvation not for salvation. We are obedient because we love and trust the object of the faith, Jesus Christ, not because we have a checklist by which to congratulate ourselves of a good job done.

James and Paul are not talking about the same kind of works. James speaks of obedient works that saves us, where Paul says works of the OT do not justify us today, Rom 4:5.

Paul is not merely talking about the works of the law. Heck, the Romans didn't have the law. Their converts came from their polytheistic religion. Both Paul and James are talking about the same salvation but coming from different perspectives. Paul is talking about justification while James it talking about sanctification. Again, we can not do God's works unless we are first made into a new creation and are made workers of Him.

Sorry, but Paul was trying to get rid of the division at Corinth by showing that all the Corinthians should be "of Christ" and Paul shows that being of Christ REQUIRES that Christ be crucified for you and you be baptized n the name of Christ. To say otherwise is twist ing what Paul said. The 'not-but elliptical' statements further prove your position logically wrong.

Nope. You seem to be a proponent of work salvation given that you emphasize man's works over God's. Belief is a work of God. Baptism is a work of man. Paul would have taught in error if baptism was necessary for salvation. His statement is clear.

First, you cannot cherry pick one verse while disregarding all other salvic verses. To get the truth it takes "all the counsel of God", it takes the sum of God thoughts, Psa 139:17. Taking consideration of all salvic verses, one must believe, repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10 and be baptized Acts 2:38.

Not cherry picking. I gave you several verses from John. The whole of John does not mention water baptism as required for salvation. Not once. The whole of John teaches that by the grace of God through faith are we saved.

Secondly, just because baptism is not mention in every single salvic verse does not mean it is not necessary. There are verses that do not specifically mention belief, the blood of Christ or grace. Since these verses do not specifically mentions any of these, then do you think none of these are essential to salvation?

Argument from silence do not help you. Your argument here is a fallacy.

Lastly, belief in the NT can be used as a snecdoche. Comparing Acts 2:41 with 44 we see the ones that "believed" n v44 were the ones that accepted Peter's words and were baptized in v41. So "believed" in v44 includes baptized in v41.

ALL that believe accepted Peter's words. ALL that the bible depicts as saved have been saved by faith not by works. None. There is absolutely not a single example in scripture where someone was saved by works. There is not a single example in scripture where someone was saved by baptism without first having faith. Not a single one.

 

[jmacvols]

Is saving faith attained by works?

Saving faith is a work, Jn 6:27f

 

[Hentenza]

Saving faith is a work, Jn 6:27f

Keep reading. Who's work? And what is the work of God?

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[jmacvols]

Again you fail to address the scripture. Is there one baptism or not?

Eph 4:5 there is one baptism. In Mk 16:16 the one Lord speaks of one faith and one baptism that saves.

Is it water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

It is water baptism. The one baptism of Eph 4: and Mk 16:16 is the baptism of the great commission. This baptism has disciples (humans) as administrators and humans can administer water baptism, only the Lord could administer baptism with the HG. The baptism of the great commission lasts till the end of time, Mt 28:19ff, baptism with the HG does not for it was a prophecy of Joel that has been fulfilled.

Also, F.F. Bruce did a study on the word baptizo and found that "baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else".... "the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning”.
Baptism is not being used figuratively in Eph 4:5.

I baptize you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; John 1:33.

The Lord did baptism the apostles in Acts 2 and Cornelius in Acts 10 with the HG, and these are the only two instances of this baptism.
In Mt 3:11, John is using the pronoun "you" in a generic sense.* John is simply announcing he baptized with water and Christ would baptize with the HG and fire, John did not promise anyone in his audience they would be baptized with any of these baptisms. In Mt 3:7 there were Pharisees in John's audience and John tells them "I baptize you with water", yet the Pharisees rejected John's baptism, Lk 7:30. Hence John was just announcing he baptized with water and that Christ would baptize with the HG and fire. IF John was promising those Pharisees they would be baptized with the HG he also promised them they would be baptized with fire, a reference to being lost. But nowhere in the NT do we see these Pharisees being baptized with the HG.

* 1 Thess 4:17 Paul says "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up." The pronoun "we" is being used generically for obviously Paul and those Thessalonians have long been dead.

Salvation is conditioned solely on faith in Jesus Christ. Nearly 200
times faith, or belief is stated as the single condition in the NT.

Not a single NT verse says salvation is based solely on faith. If you cherry pick out just the verses that mention belief, then I can see how you could reach the false conclusion salvation is by belief only. But if you examine the sum of God's thoughts on salvation and consider all salvic verses, you can then see that belief, repentance, Lk 13:3,5; confession, Heb 10:9,10 and baptism, Acts 2:38 are all required, not just belief only for belief only is dead.

 

[jmacvols]

In Acts 10:44 The Holy Spirit fell upon all. In the case of these gentile converts, the gift of the Spirit came before they were baptized in water (v. 48)
Normally the Spirit is given at the moment of faith (Acts 10:44; 19:2; Eph. 1:
13). The spirit is the seal that is given at the time of conversion. (2 Cor. 1:22
; 5:5; Eph. 1:14). The absence of the Spirit is a proof of being unsaved(Rom.
8:9)

Judas had a indwelling of the HS, was he saved?

No where in the bible does it say that baptism with the HG remits sins/saves. The context in Acts 11:14 says Cornelius would be saved by words, not by being baptized with the HG. Water baptism of the great commission remits sins and saves, hence Cornelius was not saved till he was water baptized and had his sins remitted, therefore baptism with the HG had nothing to do with Cornelius' personal salvation. Baptism with the HG was a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy where he said the Lord's Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh. All flesh does not mean every single person (or animal) that has flesh, but all flesh is representative of Jews and Gentiles, one is either a Jew or non-Jew, see Rom 3. So the apostles who were Jews were baptized with the HG and Cornelius and his household were gentiles, hence Jew and Gentiles (all flesh) were baptized with the HG thus making this baptism obsolete for some 2,000 years. Mt 5:18,19, the purpose of the Messiah was to fulfill the OT and the OT, every jot and tittle, would remain till all be fulfilled. Christ fulfilled the OT law, including Joel's prophecies making baptism with the HG obsolete. Not a single verse in the NT promises you nor me baptism with the HG.

From the context of Acts 10 and 11, for Cornelius to be saved there was something he must do, Acts 10:6. Cornelius would have to work righteousness to be accepted with God, v35. Since water baptism was commanded, water baptism was the thing he must do, it was how he worked righteousness to be accepted with God. Not being baptized would be disobedience/sin and left him lost in his unremitted sins.
Your having Cornelius "saved" when the HG fell upon him has him saved prior to doing what he must do, prior to him working righteousness and being accepted with God, prior to him hearing the saving gospel word, Acts 11:14.

 

[jmacvols]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Peter is teaching that the fact that 8 people were in an ark and went through the whole judgment, and yet were unharmed, is analogous to the Christian’s experience in salvation by being in (union with) Christ, identified with Christ our "Ark" of salvation so to speak.
[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Peter is not teaching that immersion in water or sprinkling saves you. Peter pictures the waters of baptism as corresponding to (prefigured by) the deliverance of Noah’s family by water. Noah and his family's identification with the Ark (by going into the ark when the flood came) is a type of the believer's identification with Christ (by grace through faith) in which he/she identifies with Christ's finished work on the Cross and in so doing in a manner of speaking that person is now safe within the "Ark", Who is Christ Jesus Himself. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]No, you are ignoring what Peter said. The type to anti-type comparison Peter made is Noah being saved by water (type) and us being saved by water baptism (anti-type). In this context Peter did not make the type the ark and Christ the anti-type to the ark. You are adding this idea to the context to get around the force of Peter's words.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Peter's words are so plain that Noah was saved by water and what corresponds to that is us being saved by water baptism that one has to try and not understand it. The same Peter, who does not contradict himself, already said baptism is for the remission of sins (saved), Acts 2:38:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]1 Pet 3:21--baptism>>>>>>saves[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Acts 2:38---baptism>>>>>remits sins[/FONT]

Both verses express the exact, same idea and are in complete harmony.





[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]

This is furthered clarified and upheld by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 11 verse 7,

[/FONT]

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.


Notice that Noah's (and the eight in the Ark) salvation was by faith not by baptism. You can't interpret one passage to mean one thing while ignoring others.

Heb 11:7 shows that Noah's obedience in building the ark saved him for if he had disobeyed the Lord and not built the ark then there would have been no ark for him to be in. So his obedience in building the ark lead to his salvation as our obedience in submitting to baptism leads to our salvation. Neither us nor Noah can be saved by doing nothing, that is, we are not saved by faith only that has no works.
So yes, Noah's obedience in building the ark lead to his salvation, but this is not the point Peter is making. Peter's point is that Noah was saved by water and correspondingly we are saved by water baptism.

Works don't save. Baptism is a work. Baptism without faith is simply a washing of dirt from the flash. One must first believe or are you suggesting that one believes after baptism?

Let me reword you argument:

Works don't save. Belief is a work, so belief must not be necessary to salvation.
Works in and of themselves do not save, but if one does the works God has commanded (belief, repentance, confession and baptism) then these works do save. Hence James says we are justified by works, works here being obedient works.

No. Christ finished work of the cross remits sins. None of our works remit sin. None. There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves.

Christ work on the cross means our obedience to His words save us, for Christ will only save those that obey Him, Heb 5:9.

1 Tim 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Timothy could not save himself by doing his own works of merit but if he take heed to the doctrine (Christ's law) then by obeying what Christ said he could save himself in that sense.

1. Acts 2:38- 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

One must repent. One must believe first. The use of the conjunction καὶ makes baptism a separate event from repentance. The use of the preposition εἰς can denote "for" but the translation is consistent with "because of". Forgiveness of sins are always by faith not by any act that we do.

Actually the conjunction 'and' joins repent to be baptized so they cannot be separated. So if one is baptized because his sins are already remitted then one repents because his sins are already remitted which is an impossibility. Just like "and" joins belief to baptism in Mk 16:16 thereby no one can be saved unless he believes AND is baptized.

Many passages teach this, for example:

Mark 2:5
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

No baptism here. The sins of the paralytic were remitted by faith.

Luke 7
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

The sins of the sinful woman were remitted by faith. No baptism here.

First, when Jesus was on earth He was given the power/authority by God to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving, Mt 9:6. Christ left earth some 2,000 years ago and left behind His NT word as His authority on earth in His absence, and His word requires water baptism, Mk 16;16, Acts 2:38.

Secondly, the two cases you cite above occurred while the OT law was still in effect, before the water baptism of the great commission (Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16) came into effect. So these people were not bound by a requirement that had not yet come into effect.

Lastly, as side note. In Mk 2:5 it says Jesus saw their faith. What was it Jesus saw? He saw the works these men had just done and these works are called faith, hence faith is a work. Could in be possible that this work/faith Jesus saw these men do be the reason he forgave? That the works/faith lead to the forgiveness?

Jesus told Paul:

Acts 26
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Again, sins are forgiven only by faith in Christ Jesus. No baptism here.

Eph. 1

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Again, the forgiveness of sins are through His blood not through baptism.

Just because baptism is not mentioned in every single salvic verse does not mean it is unnecessary. Grace, repentance, confessing with the mouth are not specifically mentioned in Acts 26:18, but all are necessary to salvation.

EPh 1:7 how does one have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins? A: Baptism, baptism is the means the Lord uses to redeem and forgive sins.

No. Was the thief on the cross "disobedient"? Can one be obedient apart from faith?

The bible does not say one way or the other if the thief had ever been baptized or not, so to say he was never baptized is pure speculation. But no matter, the promise Jesus made to the thief that he would be in paradise was made while both were alive and under the OT law, so the thief is not an example of NT salvation. He too lived before Acts 2:38 came into effect many weeks later so he is not accountable to it.

Did Paul add anything? Did Paul give us an incomplete statement? I think not. Abraham's works were a result of his faith not a condition for his faith. All works are not of ourselves but those that the Father prepared in advance for us. We do those works because we have faith not for faith. We do these works from salvation not for salvation. We are obedient because we love and trust the object of the faith, Jesus Christ, not because we have a checklist by which to congratulate ourselves of a good job done.

Paul was consistent, he was baptized himself to wash away his sins, he water baptized others, and taught the necessity of baptism Rom 6, Col 2.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

The obedient works we do are just that, works we do, not works God forces us to do.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

Here James says "my works", obedient works he did, not works God forced him to do.

What you say above is sophistry and has no biblical bases. Many, many bible verses put works/obedience BEFORE salvation as Paul said one is "obedient unto righteousness", Rom 6.

Paul is not merely talking about the works of the law. Heck, the Romans didn't have the law. Their converts came from their polytheistic religion. Both Paul and James are talking about the same salvation but coming from different perspectives. Paul is talking about justification while James it talking about sanctification. Again, we can not do God's works unless we are first made into a new creation and are made workers of Him.

In the context of Rom 4:5 the work Paul is talking about is the OT work of circumcision. Paul here, in Acts 15, the book of Galatians and other places was continuously dealing with false Judizing teachers that falsely taught one must be circumcised to be saved. In the context of Rom 4:5 Paul shows how Abraham was justified by an obedient faith, not by circumcision, Rom 4:9,10, thus dealing a blow to these Judiazing teachers.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

We just saw from Mk 2:5 that when Jesus saw their faith, that the work these men did is called faith, hence faith is a work., see also Jn 6:27f. where belief is called a work. Yet Paul says to "him that worketh not but believeth."

If all works are the same, then Paul contradicts himself by saying "to him that worketh not, but worketh" (for belief is a work).

When Paul says "worketh not" he refers to the OT work of circumcision, when Paul says "believeth" he refers to the NT work of belief/faith. So Paul is contrasting the OT work of circumcision that does not justify to a work of obedient belief/faith that does justify.


1 Cor 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."

Gal 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Both 1 Cor 7:19 and Gal 5:6 say the same thing. Circumcision and uncircumcision is nothing, but what does avail is keeping the commandments of God/a faith which worketh by love.

Keeping the commands of God (obedience) is the same as a faith which worketh by love. John defines love as keeping the commandments of Christ, Jn 14:15. So what avails is a faith that keeps the commandments of the Lord, that is, obedience to the Lord is what avails.

So again in Rom 4:5 when Paul says "to him that worketh not but believeth", the worketh not is the circumcision that does not avail and the believeth is a faith which worketh by love by keeping/obeying the commandments of God.

In Rom 6, the same Paul say the Romans had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (baptism), then they were freed from sin (justified). So the Romans obedience in obeying (baptized) lead to their justification.

Nope. You seem to be a proponent of work salvation given that you emphasize man's works over God's. Belief is a work of God. Baptism is a work of man. Paul would have taught in error if baptism was necessary for salvation. His statement is clear.

Belief is a work that God has given man to do, God does not believe for you. In Jn 6:27 the People asked Jesus what work they can do. Jesus told them "you believe", Jesus did not tell them there was no work for them to do for God would do all their work for them. Jesus tells us to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

=Hentenza] picking. I gave you several verses from John. The whole of John does not mention water baptism as required for salvation. Not once. The whole of John teaches that by the grace of God through faith are we saved.

Yes, you are purposely picking out just the verses that have the word 'believe' in them while purposely ignoring the verses that have repentance, confession and baptism.

Argument from silence do not help you. Your argument here is a fallacy.

I am not making this argument from silence, i am arguing one has to consider the sum of God's thoughts, all the counsel of God to get all that is necessary in salvation. You are just picking out certain verses that mention belief while purposely ignoring all other salvic verses.
Can one use Rom 8:24 and teach that we are saved by "hope only". One does not need to believe, repent or anything but just hope to be saved?

ALL that believe accepted Peter's words. ALL that the bible depicts as saved have been saved by faith not by works. None. There is absolutely not a single example in scripture where someone was saved by works. There is not a single example in scripture where someone was saved by baptism without first having faith.

Those that believed in v44 were the ones that accepted his words and baptized in v41. So this logically infers that those that believed were the one baptized.
The bible is replete with verses that put works (belief, repentance, confession, baptism) BEFORE salvation.

 

[jmacvols]

Keep reading. Who's work? And what is the work of God?

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Did you notice Jesus say "..that YOU believe..."? Jesus did not say "that you do nothing and God will believe for you'.

 

[Hentenza]

Did you notice Jesus say "..that YOU believe..."? Jesus did not say "that you do nothing and God will believe for you'.

I sure did. So you isolate the part that you think helps you. That YOU believe IS the work of God not of man. The first part of the verse explains the action in the last part. If God does not regenerate your heart then you will not believe. No one seeks God. No one.

 

[bling]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]No, you are ignoring what Peter said. The type to anti-type comparison Peter made is Noah being saved by water (type) and us being saved by water baptism (anti-type). In this context Peter did not make the type the ark and Christ the anti-type to the ark. You are adding this idea to the context to get around the force of Peter's words.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Peter's words are so plain that Noah was saved by water and what corresponds to that is us being saved by water baptism that one has to try and not understand it. The same Peter, who does not contradict himself, already said baptism is for the remission of sins (saved), Acts 2:38:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]1 Pet 3:21--baptism>>>>>>saves[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Acts 2:38---baptism>>>>>remits sins[/FONT]

Both verses express the exact, same idea and are in complete harmony.







Heb 11:7 shows that Noah's obedience in building the ark saved him for if he had disobeyed the Lord and not built the ark then there would have been no ark for him to be in. So his obedience in building the ark lead to his salvation as our obedience in submitting to baptism leads to our salvation. Neither us nor Noah can be saved by doing nothing, that is, we are not saved by faith only that has no works.
So yes, Noah's obedience in building the ark lead to his salvation, but this is not the point Peter is making. Peter's point is that Noah was saved by water and correspondingly we are saved by water baptism.








Let me reword you argument:

Works don't save. Belief is a work, so belief must not be necessary to salvation.
Works in and of themselves do not save, but if one does the works God has commanded (belief, repentance, confession and baptism) then these works do save. Hence James says we are justified by works, works here being obedient works.






Christ work on the cross means our obedience to His words save us, for Christ will only save those that obey Him, Heb 5:9.

1 Tim 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Timothy could not save himself by doing his own works of merit but if he take heed to the doctrine (Christ's law) then by obeying what Christ said he could save himself in that sense.




Actually the conjunction 'and' joins repent to be baptized so they cannot be separated. So if one is baptized because his sins are already remitted then one repents because his sins are already remitted which is an impossibility. Just like "and" joins belief to baptism in Mk 16:16 thereby no one can be saved unless he believes AND is baptized.



First, when Jesus was on earth He was given the power/authority by God to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving, Mt 9:6. Christ left earth some 2,000 years ago and left behind His NT word as His authority on earth in His absence, and His word requires water baptism, Mk 16;16, Acts 2:38.

Secondly, the two cases you cite above occurred while the OT law was still in effect, before the water baptism of the great commission (Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16) came into effect. So these people were not bound by a requirement that had not yet come into effect.

Lastly, as side note. In Mk 2:5 it says Jesus saw their faith. What was it Jesus saw? He saw the works these men had just done and these works are called faith, hence faith is a work. Could in be possible that this work/faith Jesus saw these men do be the reason he forgave? That the works/faith lead to the forgiveness?



Just because baptism is not mentioned in every single salvic verse does not mean it is unnecessary. Grace, repentance, confessing with the mouth are not specifically mentioned in Acts 26:18, but all are necessary to salvation.

EPh 1:7 how does one have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins? A: Baptism, baptism is the means the Lord uses to redeem and forgive sins.






The bible does not say one way or the other if the thief had ever been baptized or not, so to say he was never baptized is pure speculation. But no matter, the promise Jesus made to the thief that he would be in paradise was made while both were alive and under the OT law, so the thief is not an example of NT salvation. He too lived before Acts 2:38 came into effect many weeks later so he is not accountable to it.







Paul was consistent, he was baptized himself to wash away his sins, he water baptized others, and taught the necessity of baptism Rom 6, Col 2.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

The obedient works we do are just that, works we do, not works God forces us to do.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

Here James says "my works", obedient works he did, not works God forced him to do.

What you say above is sophistry and has no biblical bases. Many, many bible verses put works/obedience BEFORE salvation as Paul said one is "obedient unto righteousness", Rom 6.




In the context of Rom 4:5 the work Paul is talking about is the OT work of circumcision. Paul here, in Acts 15, the book of Galatians and other places was continuously dealing with false Judizing teachers that falsely taught one must be circumcised to be saved. In the context of Rom 4:5 Paul shows how Abraham was justified by an obedient faith, not by circumcision, Rom 4:9,10, thus dealing a blow to these Judiazing teachers.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

We just saw from Mk 2:5 that when Jesus saw their faith, that the work these men did is called faith, hence faith is a work., see also Jn 6:27f. where belief is called a work. Yet Paul says to "him that worketh not but believeth."

If all works are the same, then Paul contradicts himself by saying "to him that worketh not, but worketh" (for belief is a work).

When Paul says "worketh not" he refers to the OT work of circumcision, when Paul says "believeth" he refers to the NT work of belief/faith. So Paul is contrasting the OT work of circumcision that does not justify to a work of obedient belief/faith that does justify.


1 Cor 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."

Gal 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Both 1 Cor 7:19 and Gal 5:6 say the same thing. Circumcision and uncircumcision is nothing, but what does avail is keeping the commandments of God/a faith which worketh by love.

Keeping the commands of God (obedience) is the same as a faith which worketh by love. John defines love as keeping the commandments of Christ, Jn 14:15. So what avails is a faith that keeps the commandments of the Lord, that is, obedience to the Lord is what avails.

So again in Rom 4:5 when Paul says "to him that worketh not but believeth", the worketh not is the circumcision that does not avail and the believeth is a faith which worketh by love by keeping/obeying the commandments of God.

In Rom 6, the same Paul say the Romans had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (baptism), then they were freed from sin (justified). So the Romans obedience in obeying (baptized) lead to their justification.










Belief is a work that God has given man to do, God does not believe for you. In Jn 6:27 the People asked Jesus what work they can do. Jesus told them "you believe", Jesus did not tell them there was no work for them to do for God would do all their work for them. Jesus tells us to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.








Yes, you are purposely picking out just the verses that have the word 'believe' in them while purposely ignoring the verses that have repentance, confession and baptism.





I am not making this argument from silence, i am arguing one has to consider the sum of God's thoughts, all the counsel of God to get all that is necessary in salvation. You are just picking out certain verses that mention belief while purposely ignoring all other salvic verses.
Can one use Rom 8:24 and teach that we are saved by "hope only". One does not need to believe, repent or anything but just hope to be saved?





Those that believed in v44 were the ones that accepted his words and baptized in v41. So this logically infers that those that believed were the one baptized.
The bible is replete with verses that put works (belief, repentance, confession, baptism) BEFORE salvation.

We often say the four most important tools to understanding scripture is content, content, content and content.
John 6: 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
How did they understand the definition of “work”?

John 6: 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent

We know Jesus only spoke in parables about the Kingdom with outsiders present (Mark 4: 11), so what is the parallel spiritual meaning of the earthly physical word “work”?

I would say “faith” is no more a work than confessing, repenting, and being baptized and Jesus using faith as a work bewildered the group in John 6: 29.

Baptism is something that is done to us, we allow someone to baptize us. It is an act of humility and not something we “did” to build our ego, since it is just not “doing” anything. We become like a baby being bathed.

 

[bling]

Judas had a indwelling of the HS, was he saved?

.

Wait a minute.

Do you believe there are different portions of the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit was available prior to Pentecost?

What was Jesus trying to teach in John 14: 15-31 and John 16: 5 -16 “…Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.”

 

[DeaconDean]

Baptism is something that is done to us, we allow someone to baptize us. It is an act of humility and not something we “did” to build our ego, since it is just not “doing” anything. We become like a baby being bathed.

Exactly!

If baptism saves as the member says, then the sacrifice by Jesus on the cross was not sufficent to save anybody!

We are also told:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -Acts 4:12 (KJV)

If our salvation is dependant on the act of baptism done by somebody esle to us, that is sacerdotal.

B. H. Carroll says:

The real substance of this contention is this:
(1) It is a salvation by ritual.
(2) It is a sacerdotal salvation, since it requires the presence, the office and performance of another party, the administrator of the ordinances, and thereby securing our salvation, making you responsible, when your salvation is dependent upon somebody else, and on what somebody else does. That is what we call "sacerdotal" -- sacer, a Latin word for priest – a priestly salvation.
(3) This requires competent authority to pronounce on the fitness of the "sacer" (priest) or administrator, and thus makes it an endless question with any man as to whether he is saved until he can prove that the one that baptized him is a qualified administrator, and thereby contradicting the statement of Paul, that God made salvation by faith, is. e., I may repent and believe by myself, just thinking about the Bible, or reasoning about it.
(4) Now this other thing: the theory is that, like repentance and faith, it is a term of salvation, but this is unlike repentance and faith, in that they are personal, and this other is not personal; it is still more unlike repentance and faith in this, that the scriptures expressly say, "Except you repent, you shall perish," and, "He that believeth not is condemned." Nowhere in the Bible do we find an expression of that kind about baptism.

The Theory of Baptisimal Regeneration, by B. H. Carroll

My salvation is not dependant on Christ, no, according to some in this thread, my salvation is dependant on Christ plus baptism.

According to some in this thread, the life, death, burial, resurrection, and assention of Christ is not enough to save a person.

It takes baptism also.

What was it Dr. Evil said?

Yea...right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[jmacvols]

I sure did. So you isolate the part that you think helps you. That YOU believe IS the work of God not of man. The first part of the verse explains the action in the last part. If God does not regenerate your heart then you will not believe. No one seeks God. No one.

The idea that God has to first regenerate one before he can believe would make God culpable for the lost. If God did not regenerate me, then He is causing/forcing me to commit the sin of unbelief. On judgment day God will judge me to be lost for sinning the sin of unbelief that He caused/forced me to commit.

 

[jmacvols]

We often say the four most important tools to understanding scripture is content, content, content and content.
John 6: 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
How did they understand the definition of “work”?

John 6: 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent

We know Jesus only spoke in parables about the Kingdom with outsiders present (Mark 4: 11), so what is the parallel spiritual meaning of the earthly physical word “work”?

I would say “faith” is no more a work than confessing, repenting, and being baptized and Jesus using faith as a work bewildered the group in John 6: 29.

Baptism is something that is done to us, we allow someone to baptize us. It is an act of humility and not something we “did” to build our ego, since it is just not “doing” anything. We become like a baby being bathed.

Content does not change plain language.

In V27 Jesus tells them to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

In v28, the people ask what work of God that WE might work.

V29, Jesus tells them the work they should do, the work that endures unto everlasting life is believe...Jesus tells them "YOU believe".

In v28 that asked what work WE might work and Jesus said in v29 YOU believe. Jesus plainly did not tell them there was no work for them to do, instead the work He gave them was belief.

Jn 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

The ones that believe are contrasted to the ones that obey not. So unbelief is disobedience while believing is obedience, it's doing something, a work.


Mk 2:5 "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."

In the verses preceding v5, the men did work to lower the sick man down to where Jesus was at in the house. This work that Jesus saw these men to is called faith. When Jesus saw their faith, He saw their work; faith = works...show me thy faith without thy work and I will show the my faith by my works.
If one does not have works he cannot even prove he has faith, one step more, the lack of works proves the lack of saving faith.

You say "I would say “faith” is no more a work than confessing, repenting, and being baptized and Jesus using faith as a work bewildered the group in John 6: 29. "

You say confessing is not a work???? "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,...and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. " Rom 10:9,10. Confessing with the mouth is a work, it is something done.


In Mt 12:41 Jesus said Nineveh repented. In Jonah 3:8, the King ordered the pople of Nineveh to repent in sackcloth. In V10 it says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
Their repentance in sackcloth is called works that God saw, just like Jesus saw the faith/works of those men in Mk 2.

In Acts 2:38 be baptized is passive, so God is the one that does the work of removing sin in baptism, Col 2:12f, but one still has to submit himself to baptism.

 

[jmacvols]

Wait a minute.

Do you believe there are different portions of the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit was available prior to Pentecost?

What was Jesus trying to teach in John 14: 15-31 and John 16: 5 -16 “…Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.”

In Matt 10, in the limited commission Jesus gave to the apostles, the apostles were given power to perform various miracles..."And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.", v1. Judas could not perform these miracle by himself, he would have to have had a miraculous indwelling in him. Further in v20 "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." The Spirit would be in Judas speaking for him the words he should say.

My point in bring Judas up was to refute the idea that Judas was always lost. Some make the argument that Cornelius was saved for he had an indwelling of the HG and miraculously spoke in tongues. If this is true for Cornelius then would it also be true for Judas?