Let's try this again

[shinbits]

No. You need to stop presenting straw men. It is really quite boring. Roman Catholics have told you you are wrong, and it has been demonstrated from their Catechism.

RC's have given Mary qualities of a god. If RC's have written things saying otherwise, they are contradicting themselves, further showing the flaw in their beliefs.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Hebrews 2:7 says that God made man a "little lower than the angels".

He may have made them that way but that status isn't the outcome He has in mind for us. Humans and not angels are created in the image of God. Humans have the capability to grow into the likeness of God. We may start lower than the angels but through defication we can become greater. God became man. He didn't become an angel.

 

[laconicstudent]

So if humans are lower than angels, and Mary is supposedly "greater" than angels, she's a god.

That does not logically follow.

 

[narnia59]

RC's have given Mary qualities of a god. If RC's have written things saying otherwise, they are contradicting themselves, further showing the flaw in their beliefs.

Which qualities are those again that Mary has that are limited only to God?

 

[laconicstudent]

RC's have given Mary qualities of a god.

No, they haven't.

If RC's have written things saying otherwise, they are contradicting themselves, further showing the flaw in their beliefs.

I like the assertion that when you disagree with millions of theologians over centuries, they are wrong and you are right by default.

 

[shinbits]

And we are being made sinless, even though our parents were sinners. And then we shall be glorified, and incorruptible ourselves. And we shall remain sinless.

None of that means we'll be above humanity when we reach that state -- not sure why it should mean so for Mary. None of that means we will be God when we reach that state -- not sure why one would think it should mean so for Mary.

Humans didn't enter existence like that, and remain like that forever. Mary did. And it's not that alone that makes Mary a god, but all the other factors together with this one.

Unless you believe God's grace is incapable of preserving someone from sin as well as renewing someone from sin. If that is the case, that would then be casting a limitation on God's abilities. That would conclude not a raising up of Mary, but a lowering of God. Thankfully, Catholics don't have that understanding of God having those sorts of limitations.

No one said God can't make anyone be born sinless. You just misused the term "grace". God's power can make someone sinless, but God's grace is something bestowed on sinners. No one's limiting God, you're just playing semantic games to distract from the fact that your position is faulty.

How do the angels know every time a sinner repents? Does that mean they too must be gods?

Maybe God announces it. There's no reason to assume the angels have the power to know whenever someone repents.

Did the queen mother have 'power'?

Yes. See Jezebel.

Are we not 'empowered' by the Holy Spirit? Does that make us gods?

We don't have power OVER anyone else, like Mary supposedly has. That's what makes her a god.

 

[shinbits]

I really like this one too:

All of Creation rejoices in thee, O full of grace:
the angels in heaven and the race of men,
O sanctified temple and noetic paradise,
the glory of virgins, of whom God was incarnate
and became a child, our God before the ages.
He made thy body into a throne,
and thy womb more spacious than the heavens.
All of creation rejoices in thee, O full of grace:
Glory be to thee.

This is a beautifully written hymn.

 

[shinbits]

No, it doesn't. That is a logical leap you don't have a basis for.

You know, the whole being born sinless despite two parents as sinners thing, as well as the remaining sinless forever, as well as the "Queen of Heaven" thing, which is a title a godess would have, as well as the fact that she's prayed to like a god, and can hear and act on millions of prayers from all over the world like a god, and having images set up of her and bowed to like the way false gods are, and the belief that we must go through Mary to get to Christ (something the Bible says the Holy Spirit is for, who is God)....

Yeah, all this stuff (and probably more I don't even know about yet) is my logical basis to conclude Catholics regard treat her as a god.

 

[laconicstudent]

You know, the whole being born sinless despite two parents as sinners thing, as well as the remaining sinless forever, as well as the "Queen of Heaven" thing, which is a title a godess would have, as well as the fact that she's prayed to like a god, and can hear and act on millions of prayers from all over the world like a god, and having images set up of her and bowed to like the way false gods are, and the belief that we must go through Mary to get to Christ (something the Bible says the Holy Spirit is for, who is God)....

Yeah, all this stuff (and probably more I don't even know about yet) is my logical basis to conclude Catholics regard treat her as a god.

And the fact that you keep mangling Marian doctrine, and making bare assertions like "Queen of Heaven" can only apply to a deity is why everyone keeps telling you that you are wrong.

You are simply factually incorrect in a number of your claims.

 

[narnia59]

Humans didn't enter existence like that, and remain like that forever. Mary did. And it's not that alone that makes Mary a god, but all the other factors together with this one.

Are you saying that Adam and Eve were not capable of remaining sinless? That their sin was predetermined and out of their control?

You have yet to provide a single 'factor' that would equate Mary as being divine.

No one said God can't make anyone be born sinless. You just misused the term "grace". God's power can make someone sinless, but God's grace is something bestowed on sinners. No one's limiting God, you're just playing semantic games to distract from the fact that your position is faulty.

God's mercy is something bestowed on sinners. God's grace is His very life. In his mercy, He extends to us His grace, His life, even though we are sinners. So yes, because of His mercy we are bestowed grace. But His grace is not limited to sinners --otherwise Christ would not be 'full of grace'.

Maybe God announces it. There's no reason to assume the angels have the power to know whenever someone repents.

There is no reason to assume that for someone in heaven to hear prayers they have to have God-like powers either. Maybe God announces them to Mary, just as He announces to the angels that a sinner has repented. Again, the ability to hear prayers does not equate to being divine, just as the ability to know a sinner has repented does not equate to being divine.

Aside from that, Catholics believe all the saints in heaven are capable of hearing us and praying for us, which sort of blows the theory that we set her apart from the rest of humanity doesn't it?

Yes. See Jezebel.

Try Bathsheba.

We don't have power OVER anyone else, like Mary supposedly has. That's what makes her a god.

What power do you think Mary has? To pray for us? Seems to me as though that power is extended to all believers. Some are more effective at it than others -- particulary the righteous as Scripture notes.

 

[shinbits]

Being a queen does not mean divine.

Being sinless does not mean divine.

I was born from 2 sinners and by God's grace will be sinless someday -- that does not mean I will be divine.

I never said that being a queen in of itself makes one devine, nor does being sinless. You have just purposely misquoted me, which is as bad as lying.

Being a "queen of heaven" is far different from just being any queen. Thanks for chopping up my comments and strawmanning me.

You'll have to point out the Catholic doctrine that says one must go through Mary to get to Christ and that God said to do that. Have you ever even read through the worship text of the Mass? Not one calling on Mary to open up the door to Christ for us.

I got this from one of your fellow Catholics:

In the same way no one can be saved except through the Church, no one can go to the Savior except through Mary.

If you're saying he's wrong, I'm not surpised. Catholic doctrine contradicts itself, as well as the Bible.

 

[laconicstudent]

I never said that being a queen in of itself makes one devine, nor does being sinless. You have just purposely misquoted me, which is as bad as lying.

Being a "queen of heaven" is far different from just being any queen. Thanks for chopping up my comments and strawmanning me.

Considering you've been offering a lot of straw-men about what Roman Catholics believe about Mary, this is Pot calling the kettle black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I got this from one of your fellow Catholics:


If you're saying he's wrong, I'm not surpised. Catholic doctrine contradicts itself, as well as the Bible.

If you were quoting the Roman Catholic Catechism, and not a poster on an internet forum, I would take this a lot more seriously. Hint: Eucharisted's comments don't count as "Catholic doctrine".

 

[narnia59]

You know, the whole being born sinless despite two parents as sinners thing, as well as the remaining sinless forever, as well as the "Queen of Heaven" thing, which is a title a godess would have, as well as the fact that she's prayed to like a god, and can hear and act on millions of prayers from all over the world like a god, and having images set up of her and bowed to like the way false gods are, and the belief that we must go through Mary to get to Christ (something the Bible says the Holy Spirit is for, who is God)....

Yeah, all this stuff (and probably more I don't even know about yet) is my logical basis to conclude Catholics regard treat her as a god.

Born sinless despite 2 parents -- God's grace can or cannot achieve this?

Remaining sinless forever -- the angels and those saints who are glorified as well.

Queen of Heaven -- the queen of the kingdom where her Son is King -- rooted right there in the foreshadowing of Christ in the Jewish kingships

Can hear prayers -- sort of like the angels can know out of millions of people when a sinner repents and yet not be God.

Can act on prayers -- sort of how the apostles were able to heal, and we are able to intercede for each other -- God working through us

I thought you'd already agreed that 'bowing' was not worship.

Images -- an image of someone does not make them God.

Belief we must go through Mary to get to Christ -- again please point out in the primary Catholic worship service of the Mass where this is evident. The Cathechism. An ecumenical Council. A papal decree. Anything.

All adds up to a big zero you know.

 

[shinbits]

Assuming your assertion is correct and she is therefore above Adam and Eve and the angels -- still does not equate to being God.

It doesn't make her God, but it makes her a god. Just like how Zeus is top dog in Greek mythology, but there are other gods. Likewise, RC's have turned Mary into a lower tier god.

Aside from that, the point you seem to miss is that her being sinless is a result of God's grace, not her own merit.

If God's power made her sinless, the Bible wouldn't have said all people descended of Adam (which would exclude Christ) are sinners. The Bible would've said all people, except Mary, are sinners. Thus, Mary is a sinner. If she's not, you'd be accusing the Bible of being wrong.

 

[laconicstudent]

It doesn't make her God, but it makes her a god. Just like how Zeus is top dog in Greek mythology, but there are other gods. Likewise, RC's have turned Mary into a lower tier god.

*eyes glaze over*

This is becoming boring. You can keep insisting on this if you want, but no one is taking it seriously.

 

[narnia59]

I never said that being a queen in of itself makes one devine, nor does being sinless. You have just purposely misquoted me, which is as bad as lying.

Being a "queen of heaven" is far different from just being any queen. Thanks for chopping up my comments and strawmanning me.

Being the mother of the Savior is far different from just being any mother too. Still doesn't add up to Divine.

I got this from one of your fellow Catholics:


If you're saying he's wrong, I'm not surpised. Catholic doctrine contradicts itself, as well as the Bible.

And I'm sure there was no explanation that surrounded that? You didn't just take a snippet out of context did you?

Hmm, searched to see. Maybe not the words I would have used, let's see what else was said, shall we?

Mary dose not separate souls from Jesus, as if a saint could do that, but asks Jesus for graces for souls. This is why I explain her in the context of Christian life: Just as Christians pray to souls, she prays to souls; just as Christians mediate, she mediates; just as Christians stand between God and sinners, she stands between God and sinners:

Yep, that's separating her out from the rest of us isn't it? Or do you not believe that we are the method that bring people to Christ as well, just as he has pointed out about Mary?

 

[narnia59]

It doesn't make her God, but it makes her a god. Just like how Zeus is top dog in Greek mythology, but there are other gods. Likewise, RC's have turned Mary into a lower tier god.

You're saying you believe there are actually other gods?

If God's power made her sinless, the Bible wouldn't have said all people descended of Adam (which would exclude Christ) are sinners. The Bible would've said all people, except Mary, are sinners. Thus, Mary is a sinner. If she's not, you'd be accusing the Bible of being wrong.

Hmm. Two chapters later St. Paul says that "death came to all men, because all men sinned". So does the Bible contradict itself (since we know that death did not come to Elijah and Enoch by God's power), or is your understanding of what 'all' means incorrect? I'm opting for door #2 myself.

 

[shinbits]

Born sinless despite 2 parents -- God's grace can or cannot achieve this?

God's grace cannot make a god?

Remaining sinless forever -- the angels and those saints who are glorified as well.

Not as big a deal as when done by someone born of two sinful parents. Not even Christ did that.

Queen of Heaven -- the queen of the kingdom where her Son is King -- rooted right there in the foreshadowing of Christ in the Jewish kingships

Mary is no more Christ's mom than a surrogate implanted with an embryo. Mary is not the reason Christ came, just the vessel. Without Mary, someone else would've been chosen, and Christ would've still come. However, without Christ, she wouldn't exist, since Christ not only predates her, but being God, created her. Basically, it would be like calling David Jesus' great grandfather, which in actuality is false.

Furthermore, there's a reason Jesus never refers to her as "mother", but "woman", something very disrespectful to do if she actually was his mom.

For these reasons, Mary isn't the "queen of heaven."

Can hear prayers -- sort of like the angels can know out of millions of people when a sinner repents and yet not be God.

God probably lets the angels know. There's no evidence the angels know this themselves.

Can act on prayers -- sort of how the apostles were able to heal, and we are able to intercede for each other -- God working through us

Wrong. No one ever prayed to the apostles for an apostle to act on a prayer.

I thought you'd already agreed that 'bowing' was not worship.

Not in of itself. Stop misquoting me.

Images -- an image of someone does not make them God.

Not in of itself. Stop misquoting me.

Belief we must go through Mary to get to Christ -- again please point out in the primary Catholic worship service of the Mass where this is evident. The Cathechism. An ecumenical Council. A papal decree. Anything.

I got this from one of your buddies, and even posted who said it. If he's wrong, I'm not surprised RC's can't get their story straight.


You have been thoroughly refuted.

 

[lionroar0]

What else could men throwing money at a stripper in a strip club mean? You seem real silly here, since the rest of the world would conclude it means those men are there for some type of sexual gratification. And since according to the Bible, those men would be commiting adultery because they lust for her in their hearts, you're completely wrong. Again.

Just like many Catholics, you use faulty logic to support your flimsy position.

Epic fail.

 

[lionroar0]

Mary is no more Christ's mom than a surrogate implanted with an embryo. Mary is not the reason Christ came, just the vessel. Without Mary, someone else would've been chosen, and Christ would've still come. However, without Christ, she wouldn't exist, since Christ not only predates her, but being God, created her. Basically, it would be like calling David Jesus' great grandfather, which in actuality is false.

Heresy alert. Heresy Alert!!!!

With out Mary Christ would not exist. He took on His humanity from her.