That Boat Don't Float!!

[JustMeSee]

Well, then we come to definitions again. What do you mean by evidence exactly?

There is plenty of Biblical evidence for those who accept it, but which is meaningless to those who do not. There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence, personal testimony, hagiographical details ditto. There is also psychology, strangely enough. If a person speaks to his or her psychologist and says they have encountered angels, within certain parameters (ie seeing internally rather than in the same way as seeing people or things) this is accepted as within normal range, and not evidence of psychosis, as long as said angels are part of that person's culture. Encountering Martians, not so much.

It really is a matter of perspective. Nobody can say there is no evidence; the best they can claim is that the evidence there is does not strike them as particularly convincing. The same as UFOs or the Loch Ness Monster.

I do hope that helps.

Thank you

 

[Hespera]

Why would that be a problem? The immediate needs would be for shelter and food. If you can swim, you can go get the fish, while I build the shelter. If you can't swim, I will fish, and you have a go with the shelter.

I don't think there would be any reason to fall out, do you?

No reason it would be a problem longs nobody tries to convert on religion or politics. I wont, and dont want anyone to try it on me, outside of a forum anyhow...

Swimming is my top sport. That and tennis. I guess coconuts wont make good balls tho.

 

[Catherineanne]

The difference is probably the point at which someone acts on it.

I think often of the guy who told me he prays every day to god for word Word) that he is to begin killing people like me, for the purification of America.

That sounds like a form of psychosis; this person has lost touch with reality, and has created his own reality. The Judeo: Christian God is not one who incites people to murder. Therefore this person's experience of God is not normal but pathological, and he certainly needs help, preferably before he acts on his impulses.

He is not likely to find me, but.... i do think if a person earnest prays to whatever spirit he thinks he is communicating with, he sooner or later will really think he got a response. I wonder how many would be killer angels there out there wanting to take their version of a flaming sword to the evil atheists. Im sure they will get judged to be criminally insane and not responsible for their actions.

In one sense they would be insane, yes. But if there is premeditation they would have a job proving insanity.

Fortunately there are far more good honest people around than complete nutters like this. And there are people like me, to point out that the sword of our faith is not a physical one, but a spiritual one, and perhaps help prevent others going down the same path.

 

[Catherineanne]

No reason it would be a problem longs nobody tries to convert on religion or politics. I wont, and dont want anyone to try it on me, outside of a forum anyhow...

Swimming is my top sport. That and tennis. I guess coconuts wont make good balls tho.

I have never yet tried to 'convert' anyone to anything, and I see no reason to start now, H. If someone asks a question, I am happy to answer it, if I can, but I really am not comfortable with evangelising. Waste of time, imo.

So, you get the fish and the coconuts. I will weave together some leaves and make a shelter. Two if there is time, in case you snore.

 

[JustMeSee]

But only if it's a Christian psychologist, right?

Talking to a [lay] psychologist about looking forward to Heaven, or that you tell the devil to 'get lost' can land you in the psych ward.

From my personal experience, this statement is not true. Psychologists (even atheist ones) are generally respectful of clients' religious beliefs. On the other hand, saying that demons are coming out of the walls may lead to a psychiatric evaluation.

 

[Catherineanne]

From my personal experience, this statement is not true. Psychologists (even atheist ones) are generally respectful of clients' religious beliefs. On the other hand, saying that demons are coming out of the walls may lead to a psychiatric evaluation.

Quite right.

 

[MoonLancer]

That sounds like a form of psychosis; this person has lost touch with reality, and has created his own reality. The Judeo: Christian God is not one who incites people to murder. Therefore this person's experience of God is not normal but pathological, and he certainly needs help, preferably before he acts on his impulses.

I think you would have a good case if there were not instances of god requesting others to do his killing. Its very well documented in the bible. It tends to get the glossy treatment though.

 

[Nathan Poe]

But only if it's a Christian psychologist, right?

Talking to a [lay] psychologist about looking forward to Heaven, or that you tell the devil to 'get lost' can land you in the psych ward.

You know, AV -- no matter how much you try, you're not going to score any pity points with the "poor persecuted me" schtick.

 

[Catherineanne]

That's what I'm asking. At what point does one lose touch with reality. When they see angels, demons, etc. (only things that they can see), or is it when they begin acting out what said angels and demons, etc. tell them to?

Well, take schizophrenia. As I understand it (which is admittedly not far) this disorder results in the person not being able to identify that the thoughts in their head belong to them. Instead it sounds as if they have other people talking to them from the inside.

Similarly, those suffering hallucinations may see what is not there, or may hear voices inside their heads, telling them to do a particular thing. If they are not capable of realising that any voice in their head is a product of their head; a thought, in other words, then they are in danger of losing touch with reality. The voices may become more powerful than their impulse control, and compel them to act in ways which are harmful to themselves or others.

Imo, it is at the seeing or hearing stage that the danger signs occur. Sadly, this stage is not always identified, and often the person acts out before they are found and treated.

For a Christian, this raises all sorts of questions. We are told that God speaks to us, but if we start to hear a voice that we cannot identify as being at least on some level part of ourselves, then we head into dangerous ground. When I hear the voice of God, therefore, it is sensible for me to regard this as being as much a product of my subconscious as it is an external reality. For example, a Bible verse may come to mind. In one sense this is me remembering. In another sense, it is God reminding me of this verse in order to bring me reassurance or comfort. It can never be a message of despair or rejection, because God will not ever send such a message to anyone, and so any such thoughts may be the end product of abuse, or self esteem issues, but will not be of God.

Generally speaking, to err on the side of caution it is best to regard anything in your head as the product of your head, unless you are very, very sure it is from the Lord.

 

[sandwiches]

This is correct. With other theists, I can talk objectively of God. With non theists, there is no point. I think God rather likes being elusive; he sustains the whole universe and yet he cannot be found unless we already know he is there. Eternal hide and seek.

I'm curious about a couple of things:
Do you feel, then, that it's reasonable and understandable that some people can't accept the teachings of the Bible or whatever religious dogma without evidence?

If you do think it's reasonable, do you think it'd be just or fair that God would punish a person for being unable to believe what he can't detect?

 

[Catherineanne]

I think you would have a good case if there were not instances of god requesting others to do his killing. Its very well documented in the bible. It tends to get the glossy treatment though.

Those were not God; they were human projections onto God. Just the same as people do today. They can't take the responsibility, so blame God.

Christ trumps anything else in Scripture, and he says that we are to love our enemies, and do good to those who hurt us. Therefore, for a Christian, there is no possible excuse for harming anyone, for any reason.

 

[AV1611VET]

From my personal experience, this statement is not true.

We just had a well-know evangelist at our church with whom it did happen -- and here's a link that even Gracchus won't touch: Rorschach Ink Blot Test.

 

[Catherineanne]

I'm curious about a couple of things:
Do you feel, then, that it's reasonable and understandable that some people can't accept the teachings of the Bible or whatever religious dogma without evidence?

Of course. You would have to be insane to accept religious anything without the kind of evidence that you need, in order to believe.

If you do think it's reasonable, do you think it'd be just or fair that God would punish a person for being unable to believe what he can't detect?

God will not punish anyone for unbelief; why would he? Those who believe do so because God gives them the Grace to believe. Grace is not an act of man, but of God; belief is the product of grace, not the agent of it. Therefore, if God does not give you this Grace, it makes no sense for him to punish you for what he has withheld. It makes as much sense as punishing us for being fallible, when this is how he chose to create us. What is that idea all about?

Moving into slightly deeper theological waters, it is not possible for me (or anyone else) to outdo God in morality. Therefore, if I see this as impossible, then it must be a thousand times more impossible for God. Any moral issue which is seen by even one person in 8 billion, must be a morality that is shared by God. It doesn't matter if ten million rabid Christians tell you that you are destined for hell. If one says you are not, then you are not. And if one says there is no such place as hell, because this is a fundamentally immoral concept, then there is indeed no such place as hell.

There is no such place as hell; no fire and brimstone, no lake of eternal torment. Hell is in this world.

You have nothing to worry about, therefore.

 

[MoonLancer]

Those were not God; they were human projections onto God. Just the same as people do today. They can't take the responsibility, so blame God.

Christ trumps anything else in Scripture, and he says that we are to love our enemies, and do good to those who hurt us. Therefore, for a Christian, there is no possible excuse for harming anyone, for any reason.

Just So i understand your position when the bible says God orders the Israelites to cleanse other cities... that wasn't God?

 

[AV1611VET]

Did I miss your reply to this, Catherine?

724

 

[Catherineanne]

Just So i understand your position when the bible says God orders the Israelites to cleanse other cities... that wasn't God?

When George Bush said God wanted him to invade Iraq, was that actually God?

There is your answer. People do not change.

Even less does God change. God does not ever condone genocide. Never has, never will.

 

[Catherineanne]

Did I miss your reply to this, Catherine?

724

I don't know. Did you?

Did you actually mean to ask, did I reply? I didn't reply, but I will now. No, I have never seen a demon, although I have encountered some very nasty people.

Were I to encounter a demon I would ignore it. Turn my back, walk away, laugh; that kind of thing. Demons have no power over Christians whatever, and so they are not worth worrying about. Without sounding too immodest, I think it would be a brave demon who came anywhere near me. Not because of me, you understand, but because of all those angels around me.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't know. Did you?

To be honest -- no, I don't think I did.

I'm familiar with Norman Vincent Peale's rhetoric.

 

[MoonLancer]

God will not punish anyone for unbelief; why would he? Those who believe do so because God gives them the Grace to believe. Grace is not an act of man, but of God; belief is the product of grace, not the agent of it. Therefore, if God does not give you this Grace, it makes no sense for him to punish you for what he has withheld. It makes as much sense as punishing us for being fallible, when this is how he chose to create us. What is that idea all about?

I like your logic here.

Moving into slightly deeper theological waters, it is not possible for me (or anyone else) to outdo God in morality. Therefore, if I see this as impossible, then it must be a thousand times more impossible for God. Any moral issue which is seen by even one person in 8 billion, must be a morality that is shared by God. It doesn't matter if ten million rabid Christians tell you that you are destined for hell. If one says you are not, then you are not. And if one says there is no such place as hell, because this is a fundamentally immoral concept, then there is indeed no such place as hell.

I must admit i dont fully follow you with this one,

but i do wish there were more Christians like yourself who seem to believe god is a loving god without contradiction. Too many times i have heard "God will give you his unconditional love IF..." yeah so much for unconditional. There are other arguments but all them cannot be reconciled with a all loving all knowing and all powerful god.

If there was any way to do so it would be your way, but as a result many parts of the bible must be willfully ignored. If your ok with that i say carry on and good luck.

 

[Catherineanne]

If there was any way to do so it would be your way, but as a result many parts of the bible must be willfully ignored. If your ok with that i say carry on and good luck.

There are many parts of the Bible that deserve to be willfully ignored, imo.

Anyone who wishes to do so, can therefore feel free. Just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Too many times i have heard "God will give you his unconditional love IF..." yeah so much for unconditional.

God's love is indeed unconditional and without strings of any kind. Whatever we choose to do afterwards is in response to this love, but is not the agent of it. Any parent will understand this; we do not love our children only when they behave; we love them every moment of every day, whatever they do. We cannot help ourselves. Neither can God help loving us.