Am I saved?

[Norbert L]

I have no idea what your comment about slavery has to do with clothing or the conditions of dress of a slave?

Well the entire topic of slavery is huge, suffice it to say the slavery exercised throughout time is not consistent in it's application but the spiritual analogy is; despite one's clothing or conditions of dress.

I have no problems with the idea of following Jesus' perfect example, but I can never follow Christ's perfect example. The reason is I can not ever become the Messiah. Christ is a title not a person. Jesus is a person not a title. Most usually when we say Christ we are also referring to Jesus. Our sloppyness of speech alows us to misuse the term Christ. I used the term Christ unthinkingly. Sorry I did not use Jesus. I am not able to connect anything in the above quote with the rest of your post.

bugkiller

The goal is much more of consistantly maintaining the direction, running the race whereby the destination is reached.

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." (Php 3:12)

I cannot be exactly sure how you meant it, but the idea "I can never follow Christ's perfect example" is much like telling alcoholics that AA can't work, give up and drink yourselves to death. To believe following Christ in such a manner is denying a key element within the gospel, if not the whole gospel for each and every person.

"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Mat 11:28-30)

Facing our own sins is never a comfortable thought but that shouldn't make it such a burden and yoke to stop anyone from continually fighting it. After all even Atheist's will pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for some self improvement courses.

 

[bugkiller]

Well the entire topic of slavery is huge, suffice it to say the slavery exercised throughout time is not consistent in it's application but the spiritual analogy is; despite one's clothing or conditions of dress.

The goal is much more of consistantly maintaining the direction, running the race whereby the destination is reached.

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." (Php 3:12)

I cannot be exactly sure how you meant it, but the idea "I can never follow Christ's perfect example" is much like telling alcoholics that AA can't work, give up and drink yourselves to death. To believe following Christ in such a manner is denying a key element within the gospel, if not the whole gospel for each and every person.

"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Mat 11:28-30)

Facing our own sins is never a comfortable thought but that shouldn't make it such a burden and yoke to stop anyone from continually fighting it. After all even Atheist's will pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for some self improvement courses.

I think a problem with the understanding we have of the bible is applying 21st century ideals to first century customs. Really forcing first century to be like the 21st century customs and conditions.

I am at a place that to be at peace as you mean it would to be throw in the towel and be a kay surah, surah person. I do not fight for the sake of fighting. I love the truth. To stand up for anything only means you are a trouble maker. Guess I will always be a trouble maker. I get along with everyone as long as they get their way and I give them money.

So don't let me disturb your peace. Does this mean one of us has to drop out? Yep I have been so ivited by the control freak who's peace I disturbed simply by showing up, even before saying anything. Life is truely amazing. What a ride.

bugkiller

 

[Joe67]

I forgot to also include that the promise has nothing to do with the law of Moses or the ten commandments and is not affected by either as Paul indicates.

bugkiller

bugkiller,

The promises to inherit the earth were made to Abraham and his Seed. Because of sin in our flesh, we need the law as a school master to daily lead us to Jesus, the Seed, through repentance. Except we daily repent, we will perish.

The goodness of God leads us to repentance. The law is holy, just and good; though it is weak through our flesh. Sin gains the victory over us through the holiness and justice and goodness that is in the law and brings death. When we would do good, evil and its death is present with us. Grace swallows this death in victory. This is the way of Jesus Christ.

Our faith is vain when we despise the schoolmaster role of the holy, just and good law in our every day conviction of sin. We remain in our sins and they do not go beforehand to judgment. Sin still has dominion over us even though we seek to be justified by Christ. Christ is not the minister of sin.

We become conscious of sin by the speaking of the law to us by the holy Spirit. Our mouths become stopped and we become guilty before God through our human desires of the flesh and mind. We are crucified with Christ.

Then we are buried in the laver of water between the porch and the altar and are raised up in newness of life. This is a daily work of grace. Paul confessed, "I die daily." "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that his life may be manifested."

Joe

 

[bugkiller]

bugkiller,

The promises to inherit the earth were made to Abraham and his Seed. Because of sin in our flesh, we need the law as a school master to daily lead us to Jesus, the Seed, through repentance. Except we daily repent, we will perish.

Do you have a verse that says Abraaham and seed to iherit the earth? This is the first time I have heard that. On your second comment I have quesion and a statement. Don't you ever grow up and mature that is get out of school? Do you desire to be a child for ever? Paul says we are released from the school master.

The goodness of God leads us to repentance. The law is holy, just and good; though it is weak through our flesh. Sin gains the victory over us through the holiness and justice and goodness that is in the law and brings death. When we would do good, evil and its death is present with us. Grace swallows this death in victory. This is the way of Jesus Christ.

This sounds like sin so garace may abound. This does not agree with what I have been hearing on this board. If I am not mistaken your church says we must become perfect as in sinless to be saved. And you don't know till the judgement if you are found worthy to be saved as a result of the IJ. I also thought that you all like to quote I John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. And verse 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. So I really don't understand what you are trying to say. I sure do not except that Jesus is sin so you may have grace take away your punishment.

Our faith is vain when we despise the schoolmaster role of the holy, just and good law in our every day conviction of sin. We remain in our sins and they do not go beforehand to judgment. Sin still has dominion over us even though we seek to be justified by Christ. Christ is not the minister of sin.

I have no clue where you are getting this. I haven't found it in my Bible in 40 years. Do you have a verse? No sin does not have dominion over me. I am redeemed!

We become conscious of sin by the speaking of the law to us by the holy Spirit. Our mouths become stopped and we become guilty before God through our human desires of the flesh and mind. We are crucified with Christ.

You are stringing together to many things in this post with no scripture support for any of it. Inthink you need to sit down and read Romans and Galatians out loud twice just like a book. Don't stop to ask questions just read it like a novel. Then go back and read and ask questions. Of course it would be very benificial toi ask God to open the scripture to your hungry heart. I mean no offense.

Then we are buried in the laver of water between the porch and the altar and are raised up in newness of life. This is a daily work of grace. Paul confessed, "I die daily." "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that his life may be manifested."

Joe

I have no clue what you are talking about here. Yes I know what the laver is and where it is located. We are not baptised daily. We do not rise from the dead daily.

bugkiller

 

[sdadoug]

There is much discussion on what It means to be saved. The question is Am I saved if I don't observe the Sabbath? Do you have any scripture to back up your idea? I can't debate here. So I can't argue, but may have some additional questions.

Also I think it wuold help me if you told me if you are progerssive or moderate and what you see the difference as.

bugkiller


Is this really where such a question should be directed? Who on on this forum could say anything that would either affirm or negate your current belief as to whether or not you are "saved"?

 

[Joe67]

Do you have a verse that says Abraaham and seed to iherit the earth? This is the first time I have heard that. On your second comment I have quesion and a statement. Don't you ever grow up and mature that is get out of school? Do you desire to be a child for ever? Paul says we are released from the school master. This sounds like sin so garace may abound. This does not agree with what I have been hearing on this board. If I am not mistaken your church says we must become perfect as in sinless to be saved. And you don't know till the judgement if you are found worthy to be saved as a result of the IJ. I also thought that you all like to quote I John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. And verse 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. So I really don't understand what you are trying to say. I sure do not except that Jesus is sin so you may have grace take away your punishment. I have no clue where you are getting this. I haven't found it in my Bible in 40 years. Do you have a verse? No sin does not have dominion over me. I am redeemed! You are stringing together to many things in this post with no scripture support for any of it. Inthink you need to sit down and read Romans and Galatians out loud twice just like a book. Don't stop to ask questions just read it like a novel. Then go back and read and ask questions. Of course it would be very benificial toi ask God to open the scripture to your hungry heart. I mean no offense.I have no clue what you are talking about here. Yes I know what the laver is and where it is located. We are not baptised daily. We do not rise from the dead daily.

bugkiller

bugkiller,

Our Lord Jesus gave us a example when he said, "Grant us this day our daily bread."

This is the bread of adversity. Our water is the water of affliction. Our bread and water are sure.

Isa 30:20
20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers: KJV

2 Cor 4:10-12
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. KJV

Joe

 

[bugkiller]

bugkiller,

Our Lord Jesus gave us a example when he said, "Grant us this day our daily bread."

This is the bread of adversity. Our water is the water of affliction. Our bread and water are sure.

Isa 30:20
20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers: KJV

2 Cor 4:10-12
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. KJV

Joe

Absoultely amazing. I really would like to respond with a rebutal but I'll just stay out of trouble, thanks.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

There is much discussion on what It means to be saved. The question is Am I saved if I don't observe the Sabbath? Do you have any scripture to back up your idea? I can't debate here. So I can't argue, but may have some additional questions.

Also I think it wuold help me if you told me if you are progerssive or moderate and what you see the difference as.

bugkiller


Is this really where such a question should be directed? Who on on this forum could say anything that would either affirm or negate your current belief as to whether or not you are "saved"?

I asked this question here because several SDA have told me I am self deceived in thinking I am saved. I thought I would get some more opinion. I think this is what your church teaches. Seems to me that you are denying that. What do you believe? Can you be saved that is have eternal life without having ever kept the sabbath? Keepin mind that I know about the sabbath and would like you to consider that in a response.

bugliller

 

[VictorC]

bugkiller,

Our Lord Jesus gave us a example when he said, "Grant us this day our daily bread."

This is the bread of adversity. Our water is the water of affliction. Our bread and water are sure.

Isa 30:20
20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers: KJV

2 Cor 4:10-12
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. KJV

Joe

Joe,
Your attribution of death to a slice of bread is morbid to the extreme, and the passages you quoted are hopelessly unrelated. Have you ever thought about conversing with others in a normal fashion instead of presenting morbid fairy tales fabricated by assembling verses having no more relation than a phone book would?

 

[Joe67]

1 Cor 15:31
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
KJV

Joe

 

[VictorC]

1 Cor 15:31
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
KJV

Joe

So, your opinion is that you should ask Jesus for poison laced in your daily bread by your reference to Matthew 6:11, right?

Wrong.
The context following does not support your twist on Scripture, for bread is a good thing our Father desires to give to us.

Matthew 7:9-11
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Father knows best, and He always has.

 

[sdadoug]

I asked this question here because several SDA have told me I am self deceived in thinking I am saved. I thought I would get some more opinion. I think this is what your church teaches. Seems to me that you are denying that. What do you believe? Can you be saved that is have eternal life without having ever kept the sabbath? Keepin mind that I know about the sabbath and would like you to consider that in a response.

bugliller


Not sure how you jumped from my question right to forming an opinion about my motives. It might be that other SDA's have hurt you in some way to make you defensive.[?] (sorry, if so).

On this side of eternity I will not speculate as to whether someone is saved or not, and certainly not make any judgments by outward appearances. To do so is to bring Christ, who is the Righteous Judge, down to our level (See Romans 10). That was the point of my question. You can only answer the question: Am I Saved? , for yourself, BK. In doing so we must be careful, however, as our hearts can be very unreliable if not properly trained and open to be lead by God once we are born-again. cf Gen.8:21

Here is different question: You say you "know about the Sabbath" if that is the case, why would you NOT seek the wonderful Blessing Christ has for you in it ?

Sincerely,
db

 

[VictorC]

Here is different question: You say you "know about the Sabbath" if that is the case, why would you NOT seek the wonderful Blessing Christ has for you in it ?

Christ has given us a rest that is inherently seven times superior to the sabbath and is permanent, which God called "My rest" that the sabbath never provided. Would you consider this a wonderful blessing that is well worth leaving the former shadow of the sabbath for?

 

[sdadoug]

Christ has given us a rest that is inherently seven times superior to the sabbath and is permanent, which God called "My rest" that the sabbath never provided. Would you consider this a wonderful blessing that is well worth leaving the former shadow of the sabbath for?

...former shadow of the sabbath... I have no idea what that means.
But don't think one can go wrong by following The Lord, Jesus in the example He set while living as a man on the earth.
Guess that's... "my final answer"

 

[Sophia7]

...former shadow of the sabbath... I have no idea what that means.
But don't think one can go wrong by following The Lord, Jesus in the example He set while living as a man on the earth.
Guess that's... "my final answer"

Then do you also observe the Passover and the other Jewish feasts, as Jesus did?

 

[bugkiller]

I asked this question here because several SDA have told me I am self deceived in thinking I am saved. I thought I would get some more opinion. I think this is what your church teaches. Seems to me that you are denying that. What do you believe? Can you be saved that is have eternal life without having ever kept the sabbath? Keepin mind that I know about the sabbath and would like you to consider that in a response.

bugliller


Not sure how you jumped from my question right to forming an opinion about my motives. It might be that other SDA's have hurt you in some way to make you defensive.[?] (sorry, if so).

On this side of eternity I will not speculate as to whether someone is saved or not, and certainly not make any judgments by outward appearances. To do so is to bring Christ, who is the Righteous Judge, down to our level (See Romans 10). That was the point of my question. You can only answer the question: Am I Saved? , for yourself, BK. In doing so we must be careful, however, as our hearts can be very unreliable if not properly trained and open to be lead by God once we are born-again. cf Gen.8:21

Here is different question: You say you "know about the Sabbath" if that is the case, why would you NOT seek the wonderful Blessing Christ has for you in it ?

Sincerely,
db

I regret that you seem to think I am attacking you. I said nothing that could be possibly related to your motive.

No SDA has hurt me in any spiritual way. I know what I believe and am firmly established on scripture.

I no longer seek the blessing in the sabbath because I have the sabbath. I have the rest that Jesus offered when you come to Him, just as He said. Mat 11:28-30. I invite you to do the same. The freedom and liberty is wonderful. Do give it a try.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

...former shadow of the sabbath... I have no idea what that means.
But don't think one can go wrong by following The Lord, Jesus in the example He set while living as a man on the earth.
Guess that's... "my final answer"

I guess that is a major difference in our Jesus. He is your example and His my redeemer. You will never live to (equal) His example. Your idea of following the Lord is observance of the law which brings death even brought His. One slight difference yours will be the 2 death which is eternal seperation form God. The law you (try) to keep will not allow you to rise from the dead to eternal life.

bugkiller

 

[VictorC]

...former shadow of the sabbath... I have no idea what that means.

Adventism doesn't teach you about God's eternal rest that we have entered into, instead fixating on the sabbath that was called a shadow in Colossians 2:16-17. Christianity doesn't affirm a sabbath, having entered into a permanent rest that doesn't end and repeat every week.

For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works". Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to show the origin of God's My rest that never repeated and never ended.

Hebrews 4:10 says "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His", and verse 3 said "we who have believed do enter that rest" the sabbath never provided.

But don't think one can go wrong by following The Lord, Jesus in the example He set while living as a man on the earth.
Guess that's... "my final answer"

The "example" was ordained with a purpose, as shown in Galatians 4:

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Being under the law is presented in the past tense, and we are the adopted children no longer bound to that law ordained for the strangers (see Matthew 17:24-26).

 

[sdadoug]

Then do you also observe the Passover and the other Jewish feasts, as Jesus did?

No, Paul is very clear on this. While fun and useful to study, those things which were a type or shadow of Christ are no longer of any use for salvation as the anti-type (reality) was manifest (made visible) i.e. Type is replaced by anti-type. Actually, salvation has always been by faith in Christ...see Hebrews 11

Weekly Sabbath does not point forward to Christ’s earthly ministry. Rather, it was created by Christ as a blessing to all mankind on the last day of a perfect creation [Gen 2:1-3] and will continue throughout eternity [Isa 66:23].

 

[sdadoug]

I guess that is amajor difference in our Jesus. He is your example and His my redeemer. You will never live to (equal) His example. Your idea of following the Lord is observance of the law which brings death even brought His. One slight difference yours will be the 2 death which is eternal seperation form God. The law you (try) to keep will not allow you to rise from the dead to eternal life.

bugkiller

Bug killer, WOW, WOW, WOW! As you say you are judged by others as an “unsaved” and “self deceived” law breaker, you now question my salvation because, by grace through faith, I try to keep His commandments! (I find they are not grievous or difficult, by the way) You then assume to have some understanding of my personal relationship with Christ as being solely based on works and continue even further, condemning me to “eternal separation” (sic).
You may do well to be less concerned about keeping the Sabbath and more concerned about the hypocrisy you model as you condemn and slander a brother in Christ. If this is representative of the “freedom in Christ” you invite me to enjoy, I think I will pass on that for now.