Am I saved?

[sdadoug]

The "example" was ordained with a purpose, as shown in Galatians 4:

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Being under the law is presented in the past tense, and we are the adopted children no longer bound to that law ordained for the strangers (see Matthew 17:24-26).[/QUOTE]

Brother RC, Let’s follow this logic for a moment; I am a Christian, no longer “under the law”, so I do not need to keep the fourth commandment in that law. How is that commandment different than the 3 that precede it and 6 that follow? Therefore, as we continue in this reasoning; because I am no longer a stranger to Christ, I am wholly free to commit, murder, dishonor my parents, lie steal and worship idols as long as I do it while living in some nebulas state called “Resting in Christ”? Is that what is meant to be “redeemed from the law”; freedom to do whatever I please no matter the consequence to myself, others, or the Kingdom of God?
Just what did Christ mean when he said that breaking one law is the same as breaking them all?

 

[VictorC]

The "example" was ordained with a purpose, as shown in Galatians 4:

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Being under the law is presented in the past tense, and we are the adopted children no longer bound to that law ordained for the strangers (see Matthew 17:24-26).

Brother RC,

You quoted me, but I don't know who RC is.

Let’s follow this logic for a moment; I am a Christian, no longer “under the law”, so I do not need to keep the fourth commandment in that law. How is that commandment different than the 3 that precede it and 6 that follow? Therefore, as we continue in this reasoning; because I am no longer a stranger to Christ, I am wholly free to commit, murder, dishonor my parents, lie steal and worship idols as long as I do it while living in some nebulas state called “Resting in Christ”? Is that what is meant to be “redeemed from the law”; freedom to do whatever I please no matter the consequence to myself, others, or the Kingdom of God?

No, let's not follow this logic for a moment. Why do you feel the need to impose your opinion over Holy Writ? Did you think that redemption from the former covenant's law that condemns you is a license to become a criminal?

Just what did Christ mean when he said that breaking one law is the same as breaking them all?

It means you have violated the entire covenant that was dictated in the tenor of "comply or die" as Moses charged Israel in Deuteronomy 30:15-16. Redemption is God's solution to your condemnation. Why do you impose your opinion against God's solution?

It is the same carnal opinion Paul observed concerning Israel in Romans 10.

2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


Continue in the context, which leads to For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." Salvation is not dependent on our pathetic performance; if it were, "salvation" would be earned, and not a gift given by God, as Romans 4 points out:

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

You sought to support the sabbath using logic that leaves you "guilty before God" as Romans 3:19 concludes those remaining under the law. That motive suggests that you're intent to remain in the shadow that Adventism has taught you.

Adventism doesn't teach you about God's eternal rest that we have entered into, instead fixating on the sabbath that was called a shadow in Colossians 2:16-17. Christianity doesn't affirm a sabbath, having entered into a permanent rest that doesn't end and repeat every week.

For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works". Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to show the origin of God's My rest that never repeated and never ended.

Hebrews 4:10 says "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His", and verse 3 said "we who have believed do enter that rest" the sabbath never provided.

God's rest is a picture of eternal salvation, that the sabbath was ordained as a shadow to lead us to. Why remain in the shadow, when the reality has come?

 

[bugkiller]

I guess that is amajor difference in our Jesus. He is your example and He is my redeemer. You will never live to (equal) His example. Your idea of following the Lord is observance of the law which brings death even brought His. One slight difference yours will be the 2 death which is eternal seperation form God. The law you (try) to keep will not allow you to rise from the dead to eternal life.

bugkiller

Bug killer, WOW, WOW, WOW! As you say you are judged by others as an “unsaved” and “self deceived” law breaker, you now question my salvation because, by grace through faith, I try to keep His commandments! (I find they are not grievous or difficult, by the way) You then assume to have some understanding of my personal relationship with Christ as being solely based on works and continue even further, condemning me to “eternal separation” (sic).

You may do well to be less concerned about keeping the Sabbath and more concerned about the hypocrisy you model as you condemn and slander a brother in Christ. If this is representative of the “freedom in Christ” you invite me to enjoy, I think I will pass on that for now.

May I ask you what is it that I said that is untrue? all of my ideas have solid scripture backing them. If they were keepable you could say I keep His commandments; not I try to keep His commandments.

You say follow Jesus example and apply, no force 21st century customs on the 1st century. They would throw you out and possibly put you in jail if you were to attempt to wash the saints feet as Jesus did to the disciples. They also do not practice baptism after the manner in which Jesus was baptised. And the biggest reason I say you can not do as Jesus did is you can not quailfy to redeem lost mankind to God.

I did not question your salvation. I did not condemn you to anything. Jesus death did not seperate Him from His Father. He never sinned. I did point out the differences. I don't begrudge you for your idea of sabbath keeping.

Mat 19:16-22 says: 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

You can see for yourself that the keeping of the law will not get you into heaven. Notice that Jesus did not include the 4th commandment. Notice that the young man did not leave with eternal life while confessing that he kept the ten commandments. you should also notice what the young man's question was. What can I do? Maybe that is why Jesus did not name the first four.

You can say I am a hypocrite all you want. I understand your postion. Since you say I am a hypocrite, I would like for you to show how that is so. Look Romans says what the wages (rewards) are for works of righteousness. I am not intereseted in my wages. Will you please take them from me. I freely give them to you because I truely do not wish to get them. I have a free gift that is much better.

Gal 5:4 says Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. In other words you can't have both. This means that you are not redeemed (possess salvation). Grace and law are on opposite teams.

Gal 4:30 says to cast out the law. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

Rom 10:4 This communicates to me that the law is no more and that Christ is my righteousness.

Please show me how I slandered you and I will apologize as soon as I read it.

bugkiller

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No, Paul is very clear on this. While fun and useful to study, those things which were a type or shadow of Christ are no longer of any use for salvation as the anti-type (reality) was manifest (made visible) i.e. Type is replaced by anti-type.

Can you walk me through this, Doug? Does the seventh-day sabbath point to Jesus Christ? Is Jesus Christ our source of rest?

Weekly Sabbath does not point forward to Christ’s earthly ministry.

His earthly ministry? Was it during Jesus' earthly ministry that He said, "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give them rest?" Or was Jesus referring to a future event?

BFA

 

[Sophia7]

Then do you also observe the Passover and the other Jewish feasts, as Jesus did?

No, Paul is very clear on this. While fun and useful to study, those things which were a type or shadow of Christ are no longer of any use for salvation as the anti-type (reality) was manifest (made visible) i.e. Type is replaced by anti-type. Actually, salvation has always been by faith in Christ...see Hebrews 11

Weekly Sabbath does not point forward to Christ’s earthly ministry. Rather, it was created by Christ as a blessing to all mankind on the last day of a perfect creation [Gen 2:1-3] and will continue throughout eternity [Isa 66:23].

Is the Sabbath of any use for salvation?

 

[k4c]

Is the Sabbath of any use for salvation?

Is coveting?

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1;Can you walk me through this, Doug? Does the seventh-day sabbath point to Jesus Christ? Is Jesus Christ our source of rest?

BFA

The rest Jesus gives us is personal having to do with God's acceptance of us in Christ, whereas the fourth commandment tells us that our sons and daughters, male and female employees, the stranger and even our working animals must cease in honor of the day that points to a creation and it's Creator.

My working animals have no need to rest in Jesus.

 

[VictorC]

The rest Jesus gives us is personal having to do with God's acceptance of us in Christ, whereas the fourth commandment

The "fourth commandment" of what, k4c? Would you be referring to the covenant from Mount Sinai, that we are instructed to cast off in Galatians 4:24-30? Why can't you find a "fourth commandment" in the new covenant?

 

[Sophia7]

Is coveting?

Nothing we do is of any use for salvation.

 

[k4c]

Nothing we do is of any use for salvation.

How about santification?

 

[k4c]

The "fourth commandment" of what, k4c? Would you be referring to the covenant from Mount Sinai, that we are instructed to cast off in Galatians 4:24-30? Why can't you find a "fourth commandment" in the new covenant?

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Matthew 24:20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Mark 3:4 Then Jesus said , "I ask you, which is right on the Sabbath day, to do good or to do evil? Is it right to save a life or to destroy one?'' But they wouldn't answer.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 And the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 16:13 On the Sabbath day, we went through the city gate to the river. At the river we thought we might find a special place for prayer. Some women had gathered there. So, we sat down and talked with them.

Acts 18:4 Paul reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

Luke 4:16 Jesus came to Nazareth, the town where he grew up. On the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue. That is what Jesus always did. He stood up to read.

Luke 4:31 Jesus went down to Capernaum, a city in Galilee, and was teaching them on the sabbath.

 

[VictorC]

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Matthew 24:20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Mark 3:4 Then Jesus said , "I ask you, which is right on the Sabbath day, to do good or to do evil? Is it right to save a life or to destroy one?'' But they wouldn't answer.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 And the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 16:13 On the Sabbath day, we went through the city gate to the river. At the river we thought we might find a special place for prayer. Some women had gathered there. So, we sat down and talked with them.

Acts 18:4 Paul reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

Luke 4:16 Jesus came to Nazareth, the town where he grew up. On the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue. That is what Jesus always did. He stood up to read.

Luke 4:31 Jesus went down to Capernaum, a city in Galilee, and was teaching them on the sabbath.

Hmmm. There's no reference to a "fourth commandment" contained in the new covenant in anything presented here. What "fourth commandment" are you referring to? Is there a reason you can't find one? Allow me to ask my question again:

The "fourth commandment" of what, k4c? Would you be referring to the covenant from Mount Sinai, that we are instructed to cast off in Galatians 4:24-30? Why can't you find a "fourth commandment" in the new covenant?

 

[sdadoug]

2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

I'm sorry but this logic continues to elude me. Are you now saying that there is no more law… OR RIGHTEOUSNESS EITHER? The scripture referenced here makes the point I have tried to convey several times. When we ignore God’s laws by not submitting to them we are establishing our own righteousness. I do not question your zeal for God but it clearly is not according to knowledge if you continue to think that all or part of the eternal 10 commandment law was somehow "nailed to the cross" and we do no longer need to follow it because of what Christ has done for us.

Would you be interested in knowing what law WAS nailed to the cross?

 

[sdadoug]

Can you walk me through this, Doug? Does the seventh-day sabbath point to Jesus Christ? Is Jesus Christ our source of rest?

His earthly ministry? Was it during Jesus' earthly ministry that He said, "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give them rest?" Or was Jesus referring to a future event?

BFA

Great questions.
Absolutely! That is the point most people miss about the Sabbath. Some claim to know about it but it’s just like any other spiritual lesson, in that, it must be experienced to be understood.
Sabbath is simply a day to put the world on the back burner of our lives and consecrate ourselves to God’s service and resting and growing in the magnificent work Christ has done for us. It’s a day Christ himself blessed and made Holy at creation but somehow it’s now unholy as a result of redemption?

I thank God for the neighbor who first told me about it. It took me over a year to get the bigger picture, (I kept Sunday until I learned how the day was changed). It's a blessing I missed out on for the first 15 years of my Christian walk. More than that, it’s now so much easier to resist the devil the other six day of the week when I rest in Jesus as he has invited us to.

I don’t keep the weekly Sabbath (or the other commandments) to work my way into heaven; I keep them because I am grateful to Christ for what he has done for me. I keep them because I am looking forward to spending eternity with the One who created everything and loved me from the beginning and became sin for me paying a debt I could not pay. It's just more of the Good News made better...

 

[sdadoug]

The rest Jesus gives us is personal having to do with God's acceptance of us in Christ, whereas the fourth commandment tells us that our sons and daughters, male and female employees, the stranger and even our working animals must cease in honor of the day that points to a creation and it's Creator.

My working animals have no need to rest in Jesus.

Well, it’s a little more than that. It also directs us not to buy or sell (conduct commerce), do ordinary work that can be done the other six days, eschew worldly pleasures that serve to direct our minds away from Him, gather together for worship… Essentially, don't treat as common a specific time that God has made Holy by blessing it... Working animals are not too common here and now like back then. Now we use tractors and lawnmowers but the principle is the same. (I do have a friend with a horse carriage business who just started keeping Sabbath and gives the horses a day off now. They seem to like the arraignment

 

[k4c]

Hmmm. There's no reference to a "fourth commandment" contained in the new covenant in anything presented here. What "fourth commandment" are you referring to? Is there a reason you can't find one? Allow me to ask my question again:

The "fourth commandment" of what, k4c? Would you be referring to the covenant from Mount Sinai, that we are instructed to cast off in Galatians 4:24-30? Why can't you find a "fourth commandment" in the new covenant?

Do you realize that all God's people kept the Sabbath holy during Jesus' earthly ministry. Jesus had no need to tell them to keep the fourth commandment. What Jesus did do time and time and time again all throughout the New Testament was He taught people how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of service to God and needs pertaining to life. He took away the ritualistic keeping of the Sabbath and brought relationship to the Sabbath. His teachings, regarding the Sabbath blessed many people and brought joy to their hearts because He took away the legalistic keeping of the Sabbath. In this He magnified the Law and brought honor to it.

Your argument against the Sabbath based on not finding the words, "Thou shall remember the Sabbath" has no foundation in light of all the teachings Jesus did on how to keep the Sabbath holy. He taught more on how to keep the Sabbath holy than He did on having no other Gods before God yet we know worshiping other Gods is a violation of the first commandment.

Jesus even said He is Lord of the Sabbath. If there is no Sabbath then Jesus is not Lord of it.

If Jesus taught against the Sabbath or did away with it His people would have no need to do this.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

My advise to you is to stop resisting the will of God for His people and start putting your energy in promoting God's will.

 

[Sophia7]

How about santification?

What about it? We are not saved by what we do, period.

 

[bugkiller]

Your argument against the Sabbath based on not finding the words, "Thou shall remember the Sabbath" has no foundation in light of all the teachings Jesus did on how to keep the Sabbath holy. He taught more on how to keep the Sabbath holy than He did on having no other Gods before God yet we know worshiping other Gods is a violation of the first commandment.

So how does it work for your argument, if it doesn't work for Victor's argument? Inquiring minds want to know.

bugkiller

 

[VictorC]

Do you realize that all God's people kept the Sabbath holy during Jesus' earthly ministry. Jesus had no need to tell them to keep the fourth commandment. What Jesus did do time and time and time again all throughout the New Testament was He taught people how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of service to God and needs pertaining to life. He took away the ritualistic keeping of the Sabbath and brought relationship to the Sabbath. His teachings, regarding the Sabbath blessed many people and brought joy to their hearts because He took away the legalistic keeping of the Sabbath. In this He magnified the Law and brought honor to it.

Your argument against the Sabbath based on not finding the words, "Thou shall remember the Sabbath" has no foundation in light of all the teachings Jesus did on how to keep the Sabbath holy. He taught more on how to keep the Sabbath holy than He did on having no other Gods before God yet we know worshiping other Gods is a violation of the first commandment.

Jesus even said He is Lord of the Sabbath. If there is no Sabbath then Jesus is not Lord of it.

If Jesus taught against the Sabbath or did away with it His people would have no need to do this.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

My advise to you is to stop resisting the will of God for His people and start putting your energy in promoting God's will.

The questions I ask of you are repeatedly ignored, and I submit that you don't want to attempt a feeble answer. You're talking about the sabbath in this post, which we have already concluded from Scripture alone exists only as a component of the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses. The tenor of my question is not about the sabbath. It is about the continual reference you make of a "fourth commandment". Outside of the covenant issued from Mount Sinai, I can't find any such thing as a "fourth commandment". On top of this, my opinion is that I know the Bible better than you do, and I doubt you're likely to find any such thing as a "fourth commandment" outside of Sinai.

Here is my question again. This time let's see if you can actually answer it.

The "fourth commandment" of what, k4c? Would you be referring to the covenant from Mount Sinai, that we are instructed to cast off in Galatians 4:24-30? Why can't you find a "fourth commandment" in the new covenant?

 

[k4c]

The questions I ask of you are repeatedly ignored, and I submit that you don't want to attempt a feeble answer. You're talking about the sabbath in this post, which we have already concluded from Scripture alone exists only as a component of the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses. The tenor of my question is not about the sabbath. It is about the continual reference you make of a "fourth commandment". Outside of the covenant issued from Mount Sinai, I can't find any such thing as a "fourth commandment". On top of this, my opinion is that I know the Bible better than you do, and I doubt you're likely to find any such thing as a "fourth commandment" outside of Sinai.

Here is my question again. This time let's see if you can actually answer it.

The "fourth commandment" of what, k4c? Would you be referring to the covenant from Mount Sinai, that we are instructed to cast off in Galatians 4:24-30? Why can't you find a "fourth commandment" in the new covenant?

I guess I can explain it one more time just in case there is an opening for God to get in.

God blessed the seventh day at creation even before sin was in the world.

Now that sin is in the world He enforces it by Law and punishement in the old covenant, along with the other nine.

Jesus takes sin out of the way in the new covenant and empowers us to honor it, along with the other nine.

Romans 2:12-13 All people who sin without law will be destroyed without law. All people who sin with law will be judged by law. The people who only listen to law are not right with God, but the people who obey law are the ones who are made right with God.

Now what law is Paul talking about? Let's continue.

Romans 2:16-24 The day will surely come when at God's command Jesus Christ will judge the secret lives of everyone, their inmost thoughts and motives; this is all part of God's great plan which I proclaim. You Jews think all is well between yourselves and God because he gave his laws to you; you brag that you are his special friends. Yes, you know what he wants; you know right from wrong and favor the right because you have been taught his laws from earliest youth. You are so sure of the way to God that you could point it out to a blind man. You think of yourselves as beacon lights, directing men who are lost in darkness to God. You think that you can guide the simple and teach even children the affairs of God, for you really know his laws, which are full of all knowledge and truth. Yes, you teach others--then why don't you teach yourselves? You tell others not to steal--do you steal? You say it is wrong to commit adultery--do you do it? You say, "Don't pray to idols,'' and then make money your god instead. You are so proud of knowing God's laws, but you dishonor him by breaking them. No wonder the Scriptures say that the world speaks evil of God because of you.

Let's back up a minute and look at he first sentence.

Romans 2:16-24 The day will surely come when at God's command Jesus Christ will judge the secret lives of everyone, their inmost thoughts and motives.

Does this sound familar? It sould because it's the whole duty of man.

Ecclesiastes12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether it is good or whether it is evil.

Now I'm sure you will say the Sabbath is not mentioned here but it doesn't need to be, in the same way, murder, honor your father and mother and so on are not mentioned but they are included because he is quoting from the Law, which are the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments, written in unchangable stone with God's own finger are like a chain with ten links. If you break one link, the chain is broken. James understood this. Why can't you?

James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery,'' also said, "Do not murder.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Jesus' followers understood the fourth commandment. Why can't you?

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Oh look, we're in the new covenant already! My how time flys.