That Boat Don't Float!!

[SkyWriting]

Nope, I mean the mythology around the founding fathers, the constitution, the early presidents;

The evidence of the founding fathers backgrounds is the documentation they left behind.

Any myths can be confirmed or denied because people were able to write at this stage of mankind's development.

Letters from the Early Presidents

 

[Montalban]

You don't have just Jesus believing He is from God - part of God the Father- (the legal reason He was crucified), you have the witnesses and collaborative opinion of 12 people from a wide variety of backgrounds and different ages who all came to the same conclusion and refused to recant their support of the idea knowing that they would loose their lives for these hieratic ideas.

You don't just have Muhammed believing that he was the prophet... and so on.

You simply fail to address the objection first made by Lighthorseman.

Muslims, must believe that the Koran is God's Holy word. Or face death.
Christianity is accepted on a voluntary basis, so the evidence/testimony of the 12 disciples is different in that way.

So what?

 

[Montalban]

Think about the other times you've compared things and consider the benefits you've gotten, then project those potential benefits to this situation.

You've still not addressed Lighthorseman's original rebuttal to your claim of Christianity as truth.

Moslems also believe that their religion provides benefits

 

[SkyWriting]

Did you listen all the way through to the final total of NUMBERED killings supposedly carried out either directly by your God or by his orders?...

If we insist that a long life, without pain, and in a caring environment, is God's goal for humanity,
then "on this earth" is not the best place to be.
Your perception of "death" might not be the same as God's.

 

[Skaloop]

The evidence of the founding fathers backgrounds is the documentation they left behind.

Any myths can be confirmed or denied because people were able to write at this stage of mankind's development.

Letters from the Early Presidents

Which pretty much just shows that some of them may have been, as most people were at the time, Christians. Doesn't say anything about them wanting the country they were creating to be Christian. I mean, I'm an atheist, and my writings just in this forum alone make that very clear. But if I started a club of some sort, that does not make the club an atheist club, or a club founded on atheist principles, or a non-god club. It just makes it a club founded by an atheist. As America may (still debatable, though) have been founded by Christians, but that doesn't make it a Christian country. Heck, you might as well say that it's a White country because all the founding fathers were white. Or it's a male country because they were all male. Or it's an older-person country because they were all older dudes. Or it's an I've-never-seen-Titanic country because all of the founding fathers had/have not seen that movie.

 

[SkyWriting]

Unless, of course, the "disciples" were forced, upon punishment of death, to write that they accepted voluntarily.

It would be worthwhile to look for support for that idea.

 

[Skaloop]

If we insist that a long life, without pain, and in a caring environment, is God's goal for humanity,

It's not God's goal. God's goal is to send the vast majority of us to an eternity in hell. And if it's not his goal, it's certainly not something he seems to bothered by, or he'd at least do something about it.

 

[SkyWriting]

You've still not addressed Lighthorseman's original rebuttal to your claim of Christianity as truth.

Moslems also believe that their religion provides benefits

They are forced under pain of death to believe.

 

[Montalban]

I'm not confused,

Thank you for not addressing the evidence again. If it makes you happy to try point-scoring on spelling, more power to you.

 

[SkyWriting]

So what?

Well stated question.

 

[Montalban]

It's irrelevant but I'll indulge you. Thoughts are as information flowing in a cable or stored in a hard drive. Are you saying that simply because this information is 'merely' electrical impulses that it can't be information? Or that a photograph in your hard drive can't be a photograph because it's made of electrical impulses?

Well if you can tell me where 'beauty' exists in chemical form, I'd be more than happy to know.

You've not addressed the idea of 'truth' if we're all just chemicals how is it that chemicals are letting us know that the truth is we're just chemicals?

Now, I get that you're trying to separate thoughts from other things in existence and give them a special (as in special pleading) place in the hierarchy of things, but the cold truth is that thoughts are simple electrochemical impulses.

Thank you for repeating your just-so statement. If you say it two more times, it becomes true.

 

[Montalban]

Well stated question.

It's succinct.

It means, explain/show the relevance of what you stated.

 

[Montalban]

They are forced under pain of death to believe.

Again, so what?

There have been instances when Christian belief (particular forms of Chrisitan belief) has forcibly been imposed on others.

Does that suddenly make that form of Christianity less true?

 

[SkyWriting]

It's not God's goal. God's goal is to send the vast majority of us to an eternity in hell. And if it's not his goal, it's certainly not something he seems to bothered by, or he'd at least do something about it.

It's a choice people voluntarily make. Why should people be sent to a place they don't believe in or want to be?
Wouldn't that be a nightmare existence, to be somewhere you don't accept?

 

[Montalban]

It would be worthwhile to look for support for that idea.

One could argue that the existence of hell is a compelling reason for maintaining certain behaviours. OR are you going to argue that Christianity says that there is no consequences for any behaviours, or beliefs?

Good luck with this.

 

[SkyWriting]

Again, so what?

There have been instances when Christian belief (particular forms of Chrisitan belief) has forcibly been imposed on others.

Does that suddenly make that form of Christianity less true?

Yes.

 

[Montalban]

Which pretty much just shows that some of them may have been, as most people were at the time, Christians. Doesn't say anything about them wanting the country they were creating to be Christian. I mean, I'm an atheist, and my writings just in this forum alone make that very clear. But if I started a club of some sort, that does not make the club an atheist club, or a club founded on atheist principles, or a non-god club. It just makes it a club founded by an atheist. As America may (still debatable, though) have been founded by Christians, but that doesn't make it a Christian country. Heck, you might as well say that it's a White country because all the founding fathers were white. Or it's a male country because they were all male. Or it's an older-person country because they were all older dudes. Or it's an I've-never-seen-Titanic country because all of the founding fathers had/have not seen that movie.

Oddly enough to a degree, he's arguing against himself now. He was saying in effect, that there's no compulsion in religion for Christians - therefore Christianity is true.

Now he's arguing that the founding fathers wanted to establish a framework of government around Christian belief.

Where's the 'freedom' of non-belief in that?

 

[Montalban]

Yes.

How?

I suppose then if I said "This film is immoral" it is immoral, but if I force people away from it, through some compelling penalties it ceases to be immoral, because the truth of it (its immoral state) is affected by the use of force.

 

[Montalban]

It's a choice people voluntarily make. Why should people be sent to a place they don't believe in or want to be?
Wouldn't that be a nightmare existence, to be somewhere you don't accept?

This may be so, but it's still a compelling force.

Just like those Moslems you want to example they too can choose death.

I think your arguments unravelling.

 

[Skaloop]

It's a choice people voluntarily make. Why should people be sent to a place they don't believe in or want to be?

What place would that be? Heaven? Or Hell? I don't believe in or want to go to either. So why should I be sent to either?

Wouldn't that be a nightmare existence, to be somewhere you don't accept?

Yes, which again, applies to both heaven and hell. So the argument you are attempting to make here really isn't helping you. Especially when, just like those disciples of yours, I am sticking to my beliefs and denying to deny them, even in the face of severe punishment.