Joel Osteen claims the OT dietary laws are still binding in the NT.

[visionary]

This is one of those God lead things to do... Any following of dietary restrictions, must be because of Holy Spirit led convictions... But to run away because one denomination sat on it does not mean it is wrong.

 

[1whirlwind]

Just curious, BrightCandle: are you vegan, and do you eat fake "meats"?

I've been to a whole lot of extremely unhealthy Adventist potlucks. I've also known many overweight Adventists and many Adventists who experience the same health problems that other Christians and non-Christians experience. Unfortunately, none of us humans can escape health problems in this world, whether we eat pork or not. Also, unless you grow your own organic, non-GMO, pesticide-free food, your vegetables and fruits and grains and nuts may not be any healthier than meat. Besides that, whether you view the OT dietary commandments as binding or not, God never commanded vegetarianism or veganism; on the contrary, people were required to eat meat under the law.

As Tall pointed out, the OT clearly states that the dietary rules were given to set Israel apart from the other nations; nowhere does it say that they were given for health reasons. I have no problem with trying to live a healthy lifestyle, as far as possible--although the reality is that we can't control everything about our health--but the book of Leviticus was never intended to be a health manual, and the Adventist additions to it discouraging consumption of meat, eggs, cheese, vinegar, spices, condiments, etc., come from the teachings of Ellen White, not from the Bible. In fact, the Adventist health message contradicts the Bible:

1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
​

The above tells us....

KJV

1 Timothy 4:3-5 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
​

First........He didn't create unclean foods to be received.

Second....Consider the deeper meaning. The subject was....

4:1-2 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
​

So, we see it isn't really about literal food. It is about the apostasy and listening to liars, false prophets...seducing spirits. They teach to stay away from the "meats" our Father gives us that ARE to be received. What is that "meat?"

Ezekiel 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require My flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
​

People are flesh/meat. And, "every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused." Not to consume but to teach....as shown in the Peter story with the sheet being lowered. He didn't actually eat the unclean creatures but he did understand that he was to teach them for "God is no respecter of persons."

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

​

 

[Frogster]

Old Testament holiness was all about the Israelites' being sanctified, or set apart for God's purposes, from the other nations. The New Testament does not command Christians to be set apart by the same requirements. According to Galatians 5:23, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." The fruit of the Spirit is not avoiding pork. In fact, Romans 14 says that "the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit":

Romans 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written,

"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
​

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
​

For those who believe that it is wrong to eat certain things, it is, but the Bible does not hold Christians to the same dietary regulations as the Israelites in the OT. We shouldn't judge each other by what we choose to eat or not eat, but neither should we try to persuade others that they are required to follow rules that the Bible doesn't apply to them.

yes,and some try to only pick and choose what laws they want to keep,out of 613.

 

[Frogster]

The above tells us....

KJV

1 Timothy 4:3-5 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
​

First........He didn't create unclean foods to be received.

Second....Consider the deeper meaning. The subject was....

4:1-2 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
​

So, we see it isn't really about literal food. It is about the apostasy and listening to liars, false prophets...seducing spirits. They teach to stay away from the "meats" our Father gives us that ARE to be received. What is that "meat?"

Ezekiel 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require My flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
​

People are flesh/meat. And, "every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused." Not to consume but to teach....as shown in the Peter story with the sheet being lowered. He didn't actually eat the unclean creatures but he did understand that he was to teach them for "God is no respecter of persons."

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

​

1 Cor 10:25 NASB
Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake;

Greek for eat..

esthio 2068...1) to eat
2) to eat (consume) a thing
2a) to take food, eat a meal
3) metaph. to devour, consume

Greek for meat..makellon 3111...1) a place where meat and other articles of food are sold, meat market

Corinth was a decadent place,not a kosher meat market.

 

[Der Alte]

Mmmm. Deep fried silk worms.

Called Bun dae gee in Korean. Have you ever eaten any? I have. I remember a line from the movie Hombre about eating dog. Paul Newman, the title character, speaking to a hoity toity nose in the air paleface woman. "You even been hungry, lady? Not just ready for supper. Hungry enough so that your belly swells? You'd eat it. [dog] You'd fight for the bones, too."

 

[Tangible]

Called Bun dae gee in Korean. Have you ever eaten any? I have.

No, but I would try them. Deep fried raffia grubs were commonly eaten where I worked in West Africa for a while.

 

[1whirlwind]

1 Cor 10:25 NASB
Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake;

Greek for eat..

esthio 2068...1) to eat
2) to eat (consume) a thing
2a) to take food, eat a meal
3) metaph. to devour, consume

Greek for meat..makellon 3111...1) a place where meat and other articles of food are sold, meat market

Corinth was a decadent place,not a kosher meat market.

You see that as literal meat?

 

[Tangible]

You see that as literal meat?

In a literal meat market. Probably not much different from this:

 

[1whirlwind]

In a literal meat market. Probably not much different from this:

If there was ever a "literal" meat market....that's it. I saw some like it in Mexico but those hunks of flesh were covered in flies.

 

[visionary]

In a literal meat market. Probably not much different from this:

Yeah... Paul was saying... don't go looking for a levite priest stamp of approval on these... Just look for that which God has given you as "clean food" say your prayers and be thankful.

 

[1whirlwind]

Called Bun dae gee in Korean. Have you ever eaten any? I have. I remember a line from the movie Hombre about eating dog. Paul Newman, the title character, speaking to a hoity toity nose in the air paleface woman. "Have you ever been hungry, really hungry? I don't mean just ready to eat. If you were you would not only eat dog but fight over the bones."

That was a great movie and that's a great line because it is truth. I don't believe our Father would think us unclean because we did what we had to do to survive. But, I also don't think He wants us to choose to eat those foods when given a choice. There is a reason He went into such explicit detail describing what is clean and what is unclean.

I very much agree with Visionary's statment...."This is one of those God lead things to do... Any following of dietary restrictions, must be because of Holy Spirit led convictions... But to run away because one denomination sat on it does not mean it is wrong."

Denominations, of all kinds, can have truths and untruths in their teachings. The key is....do they agree with what is written? And, do we understand what is written?

 

[Der Alte]

You see that as literal meat?

There is an old maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense, makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense." But some folks when scripture, as written, contradicts their assumptions/presuppositions they blow it off as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory,metaphor, or figurative.

 

[Der Alte]

Yeah... Paul was saying... don't go looking for a levite priest stamp of approval on these... Just look for that which God has given you as "clean food" say your prayers and be thankful.

Here you are interpolating your own assumptions/presuppositions into the text.

1Co 10:25-27
(25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
(26) For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
(27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.​

Where did Paul say or imply clean food? Here is how the early church interpreted these passages.

Origen Against Celsus Book VIII Chapter XXIX. [a.d. 185-254.]


But it is to be observed that the Jews, who claim for themselves a correct understanding of the law of Moses, carefully restrict their food to such things as are accounted clean, and abstain from those that are unclean. They also do not use in their food the blood of an animal nor the flesh of an animal torn by wild beasts, and some other things which it would take too long for us at present to detail. But Jesus, wishing to lead all men by His teaching to the pure worship and service of God, and anxious not to throw any hindrance in the way of many who might be benefited by Christianity, through the imposition of a burdensome code of rules in regard to food, has laid it down, that "not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth; for whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught. But those things which proceed out of the mouth are evil thoughts when spoken, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."57 Paul also says, "Meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse."58 Wherefore, as there is some obscurity about this matter, without some explanation is given, it seemed good to the apostles of Jesus and the elders assembled together at Antioch,59 and also, as they themselves say, to the Holy Spirit, to write a letter to the Gentile believers, forbidding them to partake of those things from which alone they say it is necessary to abstain, namely, "things offered to idols, things strangled, and blood."60​

 

[CindyisHis]

If he had cared enough to make an analysis he would have told his congregation this:

Turkey bacon
The good: Good source of phosphorous.
The bad: High in saturated fat and very high in sodium.
1 serving [16g] provides 61 calories, of which 40 are fat.

Cured pork bacon
The good: Good source of protein and seleniun.
The bad: High in saturated fat and sodium.
1 serving [8g] provides 44 calories, of which 31 are fat.

The levitical code prescribed what percentage of fat compared with total calories? The levitical code prescribed phosphorous over protein and selenium for good nutrition? The levitical code prescribed what percentage of total fat to total calories for a healthier lifestyle?

Joel Osteen improved his blood chemistry how much by choosing turkey bacon instead of cured pork bacon? Changed his body composition by what ratio lean/fat by changing his bacon source? God is happier with Joel more now by what percentage than he was before he switched his bacon source? What was his message? His style? His calling? Why did he choose turkey bacon as his point of reference for his sermon to his congregation?

Like I said, turkey bacon is too processed for me.

Under the Levitical law there was NO processed foods to choose from. So what JO is eating wasn't even a choice.

What was the message? It's hard to say since we heard a very small portion.

His style? He's not too detailed, just a great encourager. Have you ever listened to him? He's pretty casual, and positive, always wanting to build people up.

His calling? I reckon that would be Pastor, and not nutritionist.

 

[1whirlwind]

There is an old maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense, makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense." But some folks when scripture, as written, contradicts their assumptions/presuppositions they blow it off as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory,metaphor, or figurative.

I don't "blow" any of His Word off. I do however, see the spirit of the Word and not the letter. Both are true for there are levels to His Word according to our maturity.

11 Corinthians 3:6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is an old maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense, makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense." But some folks when scripture, as written, contradicts their assumptions/presuppositions they blow it off as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory,metaphor, or figurative.

In fact, there was a post up over on just that exact thing

http://www.christianforums.com/t7455700/#post54509126

 

[Der Alte]

I don't "blow" any of His Word off. I do however, see the spirit of the Word and not the letter. Both are true for there are levels to His Word according to our maturity.

11 Corinthians 3:6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

If the shoe fits . . . A lot of folks use that same explanation, e.g. JW, LDS, WWCG, UU, OP, MJ, kristadelfian, etc. and many times the spiritual "interpretation" is completely at odds with what is written. And a lot of folks use their "special" spiritual understanding to determine who is and is not mature enough to receive this esoteric spiritual knowledge.

 

[1whirlwind]

If the shoe fits . . . A lot of folks use that same explanation, e.g. JW, LDS, WWCG, UU, OP, MJ, kristadelfian, etc. and many times the spiritual "interpretation" is completely at odds with what is written. And a lot of folks use their "special" spiritual understanding to determine who is and is not mature enough to receive this esoteric spiritual knowledge.

Maybe "a lot of folks" are right. Or...maybe not. :o

Did you find the spiritual interpretation given as being at "odds with what is written?" As far as someone being mature or not...that isn't a decision anyone makes but our Father.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for thetime ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
​

He knows when we're ready to bear them. He takes the blinders and ear plugs away. It's so strange how we can read a verse and then a short time later...week, month....read it again and really SEE what's there.

To me, that is the joy and necessity of forums such as this one. A place we can all share what we see. My favorite passage is....

Malachi 3:16-17 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His name. And they shall be Mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Der Alter If the shoe fits . . . A lot of folks use that same explanation, e.g. JW, LDS, WWCG, UU, OP, MJ, kristadelfian, etc. and many times the spiritual "interpretation" is completely at odds with what is written. And a lot of folks use their "special" spiritual understanding to determine who is and is not mature enough to receive this esoteric spiritual knowledge.

Well, we know for certain these characters didn't have it

Luke 11:52 "Woe to ye the Lawyers, that ye take away the Key of the Knowledge,
yeselves not enter and of the ones entering ye hinder/forbid'
[Hosea 4:6]

Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages..........
[Luke 16:24,26]

 

[Der Alte]

Did you find the spiritual interpretation given as being at "odds with what is written?" As far as someone being mature or not...that isn't a decision anyone makes but our Father.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for thetime ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

He knows when we're ready to bear them. He takes the blinders and ear plugs away. It's so strange how we can read a verse and then a short time later...week, month....read it again and really SEE what's there.

To me, that is the joy and necessity of forums such as this one. A place we can all share what we see. My favorite passage is....

Malachi 3:16-17 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His name. And they shall be Mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

There is no reference point whether or not what you said was a spiritual revelation or who or what it might pertain to. Just random scripture without any relevant discussion.