I would like to learn more

[genryu1989]

I read a post by seashale that orthodox christians believe heaven and hell are the same place, I was hoping someone could give me biblical proof texts for this concept, and also if you tell me about some similar doctrines
to this one, this is like nothing i have heard from other christian sects and makes alot more sense then burning in flame for all eternity lol. and also, i would like to know the orthodox's stance on my beliefs below...

Men and women are completely equal (i.e women can be priests, serve in the military...)

All races are equal

Same sex attraction is natural, animals and humans have done it since the beginning of creation, therefore LGBT's should be given equal rights (not once did jesus mention homosexuality, and marriage is not just a "christian" union)

Has respect for other religions

Mankind has free will (no predestination, prophecies are an exception)

Science is not evil or wrong, and the "True" religion MUST be compatible
with it (although it can be wrong at times, it usually fixes itself later)

"God" cannot "know" the future (if he did, then whats the point in creation? it'd be like watching a bad movie over and over again, you know it sucks and whats going to happen, so why bother?), He may however with full knowledge of past and present, make a VERY educated guess as to what will happen in the future.

 

[vanshan]

This is the best explanation I've come across:



The River of Fire

Basil

 

[vanshan]

In very short, those souls who enter heaven with impurity of heart, bound by sin and death, experience the bright presence of God as a burning fire, while those who've been saved by Christ experience it as warm pure love. The essay above gives a much better description of this and it does include scriptural references to support this understanding.

Think back to the descriptions of God as an All-Consuming Fire.

Basil

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Hi, genryu - welcome to TAW!

I'll try to tackle a few of these, but others I will leave alone for somebody better to answer.

I read a post by seashale that orthodox christians believe heaven and hell are the same place, I was hoping someone could give me biblical proof texts for this concept, and also if you tell me about some similar doctrines
to this one, this is like nothing i have heard from other christian sects and makes alot more sense then burning in flame for all eternity lol. and also, i would like to know the orthodox's stance on my beliefs below...

I'll let someone else tackle that one.

Men and women are completely equal (i.e women can be priests, serve in the military...)

Men and women are completely equal, absolutely! But we are not the same, and we have differing roles within the Church. Only *some* men may be priests. Not all men, not women. I realize this may not satisfy you, but I would like to say that there is no feeling of anyone being superior to anyone else in the Orthodox Church. Even our "highest" Patriarchs are just sinners struggling toward salvation, same as the "lowest" layman. No one lords it over anyone else, regardless of our roles within the Church.

All races are equal

Yes.

Same sex attraction is natural, animals and humans have done it since the beginning of creation, therefore LGBT's should be given equal rights (not once did jesus mention homosexuality, and marriage is not just a "christian" union)

We disagree.

Has respect for other religions

Respect - yes. All (or at least most, probably) religions have some good, some truth, in them, but only Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Mankind has free will (no predestination, prophecies are an exception)

Yes.

Science is not evil or wrong, and the "True" religion MUST be compatible
with it (although it can be wrong at times, it usually fixes itself later)

God created all things, so anything "proven" by science must be true, but that doesn't mean that all scientific theories are true, or that science is the ultimate way of knowing about creation.

"God" cannot "know" the future (if he did, then whats the point in creation? it'd be like watching a bad movie over and over again, you know it sucks and whats going to happen, so why bother?), He may however with full knowledge of past and present, make a VERY educated guess as to what will happen in the future.

God "knows" because He's Omniscient, and He's outside of time, so He "foreknows" all things. That does not mean that He "orchestrates" things or takes away our free will. The state of our world should tell us that.

Mary

 

[genryu1989]

I dont doubt Gods omniscience, but if he has the "knowledge" of everything thats is going to happen, then like i said, our creation is just one big movie, or are you saying we can change whats going to happen? and maybe in a way suprise god?

And as for the topic of homosexuality, whats the churches offical statement on it?

 

[Blackknight]

And as for the topic of homosexuality, whats the churches offical statement on it?

It's a bit nuanced actually. Being a homosexual is not a sin any more than being a heterosexual is. It is when you act out on those urges that it becomes sinful.

 

[Lukaris]

I know I am not answering your questions directly but I can tell you in a general sense that in Orthodoxy we are allowed to understand that there are many that will have salvation beyond our theological understanding of salvation within the Orthodox Church but we are careful to hold to the faith of the church. For ex., we can understand according to the Beatitudes that there are many who the Lord will consider special in His eyes; for ex., we cannot endorse homosexuality but that does not mean a person who happens to be homosexual will be damned. We would have to probably understand that an individual must make an effort to deal with this but cannot judge the individual. I mean if this person otherwise follows our Lord's commands and displays His virtues whether even being Christian or not who are we to judge? We do not even make assumptions of our own salvation so as to bear alongside our fellow beings as our Lord bore along humanity in His birth, life, death by crucifiction, & resurrection (believe me I understand this more in concept than in true virtue but I try). Hope this is of some help and may anyone correct me if I have said anything wrong.

 

[Josiah14]

It's a bit nuanced actually. Being a homosexual is not a sin any more than being a heterosexual is. It is when you act out on those urges that it becomes sinful.

This is pretty clear, I think, on the Orthodox position on Homosexuality:
Homosexuality - OrthodoxWiki

 

[Josiah14]

Men and women are completely equal (i.e women can be priests, serve in the military...)

I've seen priests ask for the blessing of certain abbesses (though I dont exactlu know why), and nuns of the Great Schema are allowed behind the iconastas into the alter area.

The priesthood is a fearful responsibility, and I dont know why anyone would seek it out. I would only pursue the priesthood if I really really really felt called to do so.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Men and women are completely equal (i.e women can be priests, serve in the military...)

well, it depends. in the eyes of God all are equal, although certain genders have been appointed by God to do certain things. the clerical role of the priest has been given to men, but that does not mean that a priest is somehow able to attain to holiness level that a woman cannot, any more than a woman could love her child more than a man because she bears the child in her womb.

All races are equal

absolutely. check out our saints, they come from every race and ethnic background.

Same sex attraction is natural, animals and humans have done it since the beginning of creation, therefore LGBT's should be given equal rights (not once did jesus mention homosexuality, and marriage is not just a "christian" union)

same sex attraction is unnatural like straight people lusting after the opposite sex. neither is a worse sin than the other, both show a brokenness and a need for God's healing.

no, Christ did not mention same sex attraction in the Gospels because He was talking to Jews who already knew that homosexuality was wrong. it's the same reason Jesus never told the Jews that there was only One God. before the Incarnation, Christ was the One who gave the Law to Moses that stated that homosexuality was wrong. Christians only started bringing it up when they went into pagan lands where that was acceptable behavior.

Has respect for other religions

every religion has some grain of Truth within it, usually clotted by distortion, deception, or something else. so we do believe that only Orthodox Christianity is the True Faith where one can have a relationship with God in its fullness, we do not use it to judge the devotion or even the state of the souls of those who exist outside the Church.

Mankind has free will (no predestination, prophecies are an exception)

you betcha

Science is not evil or wrong, and the "True" religion MUST be compatible with it (although it can be wrong at times, it usually fixes itself later)

nope science is not wrong, God gave us reason and intellect for a purpose. but typically, true science would conform to a true theology, and not the other way around. because everything, even scientific discovery, starts with God (no, I don't mean we should use science to try to prove the Flood/Fall/miracles/etc happened).

"God" cannot "know" the future (if he did, then whats the point in creation? it'd be like watching a bad movie over and over again, you know it sucks and whats going to happen, so why bother?), He may however with full knowledge of past and present, make a VERY educated guess as to what will happen in the future.

I dont doubt Gods omniscience, but if he has the "knowledge" of everything thats is going to happen, then like i said, our creation is just one big movie, or are you saying we can change whats going to happen? and maybe in a way suprise god?

it's not like a bad movie. God exists outside of space and time, so all past, present, future, He sees it all at one exact moment like how we view a single moment in the present. so for Him, you reading this response, Creation, the Final Judgment, your great grandma being born, Homer writing the Illiad, Buddha sitting under his tree, D-Day, etc all happen "now." what this is like, or how this works we will never know exactly.

hope this helps.

 

[Gwendolyn]

In very short, those souls who enter heaven with impurity of heart, bound by sin and death, experience the bright presence of God as a burning fire, while those who've been saved by Christ experience it as warm pure love. The essay above gives a much better description of this and it does include scriptural references to support this understanding.

Think back to the descriptions of God as an All-Consuming Fire.

Basil

I find this concept fascinating. Thanks for the article. I will read it.

 

[Josiah14]

I read a post by seashale that orthodox christians believe heaven and hell are the same place, I was hoping someone could give me biblical proof texts for this concept, and also if you tell me about some similar doctrines
to this one, this is like nothing i have heard from other christian sects and makes alot more sense then burning in flame for all eternity lol. and also, i would like to know the orthodox's stance on my beliefs below...

Orthodox Christians really are not in the practice of 'proof texting' because the Scriptures are not our sole authority. We also have the oral Tradition, writings of the Saints, the Liturgical practices of the Church (all of which could be included in the term Tradition).

The OCA Website gives some pretty good support for the Orthodox View of Heaven and Hell:

The Kingdom of heaven is already in the midst of those who live the spiritual life. What the spiritual person knows in the Holy Spirit, in Christ and the Church, will come with power and glory for all men to behold at the end of the ages.

The final coming of Christ will be the judgment of all men. His very presence will be the judgment. Now men can live without the love of Christ in their lives. They can exist as if there were no God, no Christ, no Spirit, no Church, no spiritual life. At the end of the ages this will no longer be possible. All men will have to behold the Face of Him who "for us men and our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate ... who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried . . . " (Nicene Creed) All will have to took at Him whom they have crucified by their sins: Him "who was dead and is alive again." (Revelation 1-.17-18)

For those who love the Lord, His Presence will be infinite joy, paradise and eternal life. For those who hate the Lord, the same Presence will be infinite torture, hell and eternal death. The reality for both the saved and the damned will be exactly the same when Christ "comes in glory, and all angels with Him," so that "God may be all in all." (I Corinthians 15-28) Those who have God as their "all" within this life will finally have divine fulfillment and life. For those whose "all" is themselves and this world, the "all" of God will be their torture, their punishment and their death. And theirs will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:21, et al.)

The Son of Man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. (Matthew 13:41-43)
​

According to the saints, the "fire" that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same "fire" that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the "fire" of God's love; the "fire" of God Himself who is Love. "For our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29) who "dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16) For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the "consuming fire" of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same 66consuming fire" will be the cause of their "weeping" and their "gnashing of teeth."

Thus it is the Church's spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God's splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

... those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (St. Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises)
​

This teaching is found in many spiritual writers and saints: St. Maximus the Confessor, the novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky. At the end of the ages God's glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the Face of Christ. Man's eternal destiny - heaven or hell, salvation or damnation - depends solely on his response to this love.

http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=208

 

[E.C.]

Welcome to TAW!

All races are equal

Yep. A human being is a human being. Greek, Arab, Ethiopian, Hmong, Tlingit, Canadian, American, Xhosa, Bulgarian, etc etc; it does not matter because no race or ethnicity is any "better" or "worse" than another.

Has respect for other religions

There is a bit of truth in all religions, but Orthodox Christianity has the most Truth that mankind will ever know.

In terms of believers of religions it's a "love the sinner, hate the sin" sort of thing. Sure, I don't agree with Islam as a religion, but that does not give me the right to go on a killing Crusade against people who are Muslims.

Mankind has free will (no predestination, prophecies are an exception)

Yep.

Science is not evil or wrong, and the "True" religion MUST be compatible
with it (although it can be wrong at times, it usually fixes itself later)

I believe that trying to use science to "prove" miracles or things such as the Flood was deemed heretical over 1,000 years ago.

"God" cannot "know" the future (if he did, then whats the point in creation? it'd be like watching a bad movie over and over again, you know it sucks and whats going to happen, so why bother?), He may however with full knowledge of past and present, make a VERY educated guess as to what will happen in the future.

There is "Kairos" which is God's time and there is "Chronos" which is man's time.

We live in Chronos. God knows all that shall happen and allows things to happen for a reason. Just because it does not make sense to us or just because we think that something is not just does not make God evil or ignorant.

 

[rusmeister]

This is pretty clear, I think, on the Orthodox position on Homosexuality:
Homosexuality - OrthodoxWiki

I think it better to give info from sites run directly by canonical organizations (OCA, GOARCH, Antiochian...)

In that spirit,
OCA - On Marriage, Family, Sexuality, and the Sanctity of Life

 

[genryu1989]

Thank you all for your responses, i have read the responses and articles posted. I expected the response concerning homosexuality, but after reading the orthodox wiki, i understand now that its more the act then the person, i was suprised when i read that you understand that around 20% of the reason a person is gay is because of genetics (with the other 80 not yet identified), but it was wrong to compare that to adulterers, alot of gays have absolutely no attraction at all for the opposite sex, you could take my gay friend for example, i could take him to a strip club (and believe me, we have done something very similar to this, but too vulgar for this forum to mention) and get him a lap dance by a gorgeous girl completely naked, and he will feel absolutely nothing.

As for the responses to my other beliefs, im very satisfied with the answers, except for the concept of time that E.C. mentioned, i dont think i was very clear on what i meant, but maybe someone can explain "kronos" and "kairos" a little further. As for what i meant, i dont think God can "know" the future like we know our own past, because our whole creation would be exactly as i described it, a movie, because unless the future as God knows it can be changed (by us for example), then we are just that, a really crappy and sadistic movie for Gods viewing pleasure lol. I do believe however that with complete and full knowledge of th past and present, He in a way does know the future, by making a very educated guesss as to what will happen, or unless its a prophecy hes made.

And i love the OC's concept of hell, is there more doctrines that are similar to this that you think might interest me? Doctrines that are completely different to mainstream christianity maybe?

 

[ArmyMatt]

As for what i meant, i dont think God can "know" the future like we know our own past, because our whole creation would be exactly as i described it, a movie, because unless the future as God knows it can be changed (by us for example), then we are just that, a really crappy and sadistic movie for Gods viewing pleasure lol

yeah, it is a tough concept to wrap one's noggin around, because we exist within time (being created) and we have a God who exists outside of time and yet interacts within time.

when you get some time, here is a pretty good podcast that deals with what you are asking:

Predestination - Speaking the Truth in Love - Ancient Faith Radio

 

[genryu1989]

Matt, thank you so much for that, the man speaking was very clear and understandable, and actually made a little sense.

Like the OC's concept of hell, is there more doctrines that are similar that you think might interest me? Doctrines that are completely different to mainstream christianity maybe?

 

[choirfiend]

Well, the best way is to come and see. There's a lot about Orthodox Christianity that isn't like American or western mainstream Christianity (Orthodoxy actually is pretty mainstream--second largest Church in the world). Our understanding of creation, the fall, the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Christ, what salvation is, etc have large differences when compared to the RCC, Reformed protestantism, Evangelical protestantism, etc. And the best way to learn about it is to attend services, listen to them, and get some direction from a priest about what you should read and learn. Where are you located? We may be able to recommend a church.

 

[Macarius]

Matt, thank you so much for that, the man speaking was very clear and understandable, and actually made a little sense.

Like the OC's concept of hell, is there more doctrines that are similar that you think might interest me? Doctrines that are completely different to mainstream christianity maybe?

A few areas of difference that may be worth exploring, with some caveats:

1. Non-scholastic theology: we don't view theology and philosophy as two roads to the same truth, though philosophy can be useful at times. We specifically rejected the attempt to forcibly reconcile humanist philosophy and Christian revelation in the middle ages. Philosophical inquiry can help us know when we're being stupid, but doesn't do much to produce actual knowledge - note how rationalism has fallen apart in the Post-modern era. This is a point at which we diverge with the Western church, which still (Protestant and Catholic) lives in the legacy of Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury.
2. The Mystery of the Cross: We don't believe that God needed Christ to die in order to create sufficient payment to outweigh our sins and, thereby, to be able to forgive us. God's forgiveness is freely given, freely recieved. We DO use the phrase that Christ died as a sacrifice for our sins, but this is the fulfillment and completion of the Levitical sacrificial system. In general, we emphasize two things: that Christ's Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection were all one process of (re)uniting man to God (or of "recapitulating" the world to God), and that His death and resurrection were more about conquering death than "earning" forgiveness of sins. In other words, we generally reject the absolutist sense in which portions of the West have elevated the penal-substitution model for understanding the cross. In the final analysis, though, the Cross is a mystery, and several models or means of understanding may be necessary to approach this mystery, and ultimately our only response can be to stand in awe and silence, gazing on the mystery of God dead, and again on God risen.
3. Apophatic Theology: this is part of the RCC tradition as well, but has been somewhat downplayed post-Scholastic, and I never encountered it in the Protestant world. According to one Orthodox saint: "All men's words are lies." In other words, anything we say about God must be qualified. We don't make (or should be VERY cautious about) absolutist statements regarding God. Only a few have been revealed, and these we proclaim, but we should never pretend to understand God. Our words are finite, and God is not, and that should be kept in the forefront of our theology if we are to avoid pride.
4. The Metaphor of the Hospital: Going back to different "feels" in how we view salvation, we tend to avoid the "courtroom" metaphor, in which salvation is a juridical process. Instead, we favor the "hospital" metaphor, in which we are ill (with sin, leading to death) and Christ is the physician (adminstering the medicine of immortality: His own flesh and blood, His grace, His love). It gives a different feel to the spiritual life, as we aren't concerned about "guilt" or "innocence" as an external declaration. We're concerned about "health" or "unhealth" - the ontological condition of one's soul.
5. NonRelativistic, NonJudgmental: A tricky balance, but a critical one, sometimes lost in the more fundamentalist branches of Western Christianity. We are certainly NOT relativists. We affirm a teaching and the Truth (Christ). But despite this, and perhaps more easily than the West because we are less dogmatic than the West, we do not use the proclamation of the Truth as occasion to judge others. In other words, you asked about homosexuals. I know that for me such an act would be spiritually unhealthy (see the hospital metaphor above); if someone asks, I'll let them know I think it would be unhealthy for them too. If there end up being 2 billion people who were practicing homosexuals in heaven (and by God's grace I'm there to see such a thing), I'm not going to go complaining to God about how they were sinners and shouldn't be there Same for Buddhists, or atheists, or ANYONE. Furthermore, neither am I likely to complain if there are many many Orthodox not in heaven. A label means nothing. The heart joined to God in Christ is what matters - and though the Truth matters for this (for Christ IS the Truth), it isn't a cognitive Truth. It isn't a belief system - Truth is a PERSON. And that PERSON comes to us only by grace. In the words of one Orthodox theologian: "The church holds no monopoly on grace, God saves whom He wills." It would do well for those of us, like me, who struggle with pride, to remember that the Truth is not a bludgeon with which to berate others and feel superior to them. It ought to humble us, for possessing a higher Truth, we will be judged all the more strenuously on that last and terrible day.
6. Ancient Succession, Conciliar Ecclesiology: We're the only Church in the world, aside from the non-Chalcedonians, that can claim succession directly from the apostolic communities and that isn't Papist, but maintains the ancient decentralized ecclesiology (each bishop as overseer of his area) with a conciliar method of solving larger issues / building consensus on key items.

I don't know, there are others. But the above poster is right - come and see. Orthodoxy isn't an idea. It must be experienced to be understood.

 

[Gwendolyn]

1. The Mystery of the Cross: We don't believe that God needed Christ to die in order to create sufficient payment to outweigh our sins and, thereby, to be able to forgive us. God's forgiveness is freely given, freely recieved. We DO use the phrase that Christ died as a sacrifice for our sins, but this is the fulfillment and completion of the Levitical sacrificial system. In general, we emphasize two things: that Christ's Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection were all one process of (re)uniting man to God (or of "recapitulating" the world to God), and that His death and resurrection were more about conquering death than "earning" forgiveness of sins. In other words, we generally reject the absolutist sense in which portions of the West have elevated the penal-substitution model for understanding the cross. In the final analysis, though, the Cross is a mystery, and several models or means of understanding may be necessary to approach this mystery, and ultimately our only response can be to stand in awe and silence, gazing on the mystery of God dead, and again on God risen.

I would like to learn more about the Orthodox understanding of this mystery. Do you have any articles I could read?