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losing salvation

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Musa80

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Your example is why it's dangerous to believe in the man-made doctrine of OSAS. Salvation is a journey. You make a commitment daily to believe and follow Christ. Just like you make a commitment to stay married daily. There are times in everyone's life, I believe, where we have times of spiritual drought, or doubts, or struggles/hardships. This is "normal," as a part of working out our salvation, as St. Paul says. We just have to continue down that well-trodden path...follow those righteous before us that finished the race and were crowned by God.

I don't believe God was angry with you. God is always there to welcome you with open arms. He is like the father in the story of the Prodigal son. God is love...and this love is so incomprehensible to our human minds. Just know that He always loves us, no matter what, and to show our love for Him, we follow Him and his Commandments and live the best we can, every day, moving ultimately closer to Him. God bless. :wave:

LOL I had just typed a rather long post that was pretty much exactly what you posted, although, not expressed quite so well. So, I'll just refrain from posting it, and go with ye olde fashion "yeah, what she said" post.
 
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squint

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Your example is why it's dangerous to believe in the man-made doctrine of OSAS.

Any of you who believe you can eternally LOSE your salvation in actuality cannot find ONE SINGLE NAMED BELIEVING INDIVIDUAL unto whom this supposed fate befell in the entirety of the BIBLE.

How is it then YOU GOT THERE?
 
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Dorothea

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LOL I had just typed a rather long post that was pretty much exactly what you posted, although, not expressed quite so well. So, I'll just refrain from posting it, and go with ye olde fashion "yeah, what she said" post.
Thanks, Intercisus. :)
 
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Albion

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it's dangerous to believe in the man-made doctrine of OSAS

I wouldn't say that to a Calvinist unless you want some big time backlash :D

I'm not a Calvinist. I don't consider this to be a "big time" response. And it sure doesn't rise to any kind of a "backlash, " BUT I'd advise anyone to read post #17 before calling Jesus's own statement "manmade!"
 
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Dorothea

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Any of you who believe you can eternally LOSE your salvation in actuality cannot find ONE SINGLE NAMED BELIEVING INDIVIDUAL unto whom this supposed fate befell in the entirety of the BIBLE.

How is it then YOU GOT THERE?
Here's some scriptural references about this subject.

There are many verses like this: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31). But to set these up as the sole component of salvation is a refusal to take into account dozens of other verses that demonstrate the need for more than some static one-moment-in-time belief.

Nowhere in Scripture is there the slightest support for an instantaneous, effortless, and permanent salvation, for a one-time belief in the Lord Jesus Christ that results in a completed act or state of "eternal security." Rather, Scripture evidences the unequivocal necessity for struggle and enduring to the end.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Php. 2:12).

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected, but I press on...reaching forwared to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize fo the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Php. 3:12-14).

"To us who are being saved" (1 Cor. 1:18).

"Those who are being saved" (2 Cor. 2:15).

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim. 4:7).

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it" (1 Cor. 9:24).

"Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us" (Heb. 12:1).

"But he who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 10:22).

"Exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).

"If we endure, we shall also reign with Him" (2 Tim. 2:12).

"We must give more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away" (Heb. 2:1).

"If we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end" (Heb. 3:6).

"For we have become partakers of Christ if we held the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" (Heb. 3:14).

Examples of those who fell away in the Bible:

We can begin with Judas Iscariot, one of the original apostles. "He called his disciples to Himself; and from then He chose twelve whom He also named apostles...and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor" (Lk. 6:13, 16). Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude." (Lk. 22:3-6).

Next, there is Nicolas, one of the original seven deacons. We read: "Seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint...and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch" (Acts 6:3, 5). Sometime later, Nicolas founded and led the Gnostic Nicolaitan sect, a heretical band of schismatics condemned by Jesus: "But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate...Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which I hate" (Rev. 2:6, 15).

Another example is Demas, a co-worker of St. Paul in Rome, and friend of St. Luke: "Luke the beloved Physician and Demas greet you" (Col. 4:14). Demas abandoned apostle Paul and the Church, returning to lusts of the flesh: "For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica" (2 Tim. 4:10).

We are not referring here to marginal congregants but rather to righteous one-time sincere believers. Judas was one of Jesus' twelve apostles. Not only was Nicolas a deacon he was described as being "full of the Holy Spirit." And Demas closely tied to no less than Apostle Paul and St. Luke.

**from "West of Jesus" by monk Anthony
 
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Dorothea

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I wouldn't say that to a Calvinist unless you want some big time backlash :D
lol Well, I was just answering her question. I wasn't really thinking of others on this, just the OP and my own thoughts and beliefs and sharing them, hoping to give her comfort. I certainly am not trying to offend the Calvinists here. :)
 
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Albion

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Here's some scriptural references about this subject.

OK

There are many verses like this: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).
Well, that one doesn't comment on the matter of Eternal Security, just about what it is that causes anyone to be saved--Faith.

Nowhere in Scripture is there the slightest support for an instantaneous, effortless, and permanent salvation
Did anyone here say that salvation is instantaneous or effortless? But even if they had, that again is not about Eternal Security (OSAS). And as for permanent salvation, there have already been several verses attesting to that truth posted on this thread, so I don't see how it can be said that "Nowhere in Scripure is there the slightest support."
 
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Dorothea

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OK


Well, that one doesn't comment on the matter of Eternal Security, just about what it is that causes anyone to be saved--Faith.


Did anyone here say that salvation is instantaneous or effortless? But even if they had, that again is not about Eternal Security (OSAS). And as for permanent salvation, there have already been several verses attesting to that truth posted on this thread, so I don't see how it can be said that "Nowhere in Scripure is there the slightest support."
Yes, you disagree with monk Anthony on his beliefs in his book, which I posted excerpts from. That is fine. This happens all the time in this forum, does it not? Disagreements?

There are examples monk Anthony wrote about from the Bible that shows those who were filled with the Holy Spirit and fell away. This is an example of losing one's salvation. Feel free to disagree. I agree with the beliefs of monk Anthony and others who do not believe in the doctrine OSAS. So be it. :)
 
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Musa80

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I'm not a Calvinist. I don't consider this to be a "big time" response. And it sure doesn't rise to any kind of a "backlash, " BUT I'd advise anyone to read post #17 before calling Jesus's own statement "manmade!"

There's a word for what's in post 17. It's called prooftexting, and it's hardly something I'd hang my salvation on. Just sayin'
 
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squint

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Here's some scriptural references about this subject.

There are many verses like this: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31). But to set these up as the sole component of salvation is a refusal to take into account dozens of other verses that demonstrate the need for more than some static one-moment-in-time belief.

Nowhere in Scripture is there the slightest support for an instantaneous, effortless, and permanent salvation, for a one-time belief in the Lord Jesus Christ that results in a completed act or state of "eternal security." Rather, Scripture evidences the unequivocal necessity for struggle and enduring to the end.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Php. 2:12).

OK, I read that and see NOTHING about a beliver 'eternally losing' their salvation.

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected, but I press on...reaching forwared to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize fo the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Php. 3:12-14).

OK, I read that and see NOTHING about a believer 'eternally losing' their salvation.

"To us who are being saved" (1 Cor. 1:18).

"Those who are being saved" (2 Cor. 2:15).

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim. 4:7).

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it" (1 Cor. 9:24).

"Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us" (Heb. 12:1).

"But he who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 10:22).

"Exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).

"If we endure, we shall also reign with Him" (2 Tim. 2:12).

"We must give more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away" (Heb. 2:1).

"If we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end" (Heb. 3:6).

"For we have become partakers of Christ if we held the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" (Heb. 3:14).

OK, I read ALL of those and see NOT ONE SINGLE STATEMENT therein where a believer 'eternally loses' their salvation.

Examples of those who fell away in the Bible:

We can begin with Judas Iscariot, one of the original apostles. "He called his disciples to Himself; and from then He chose twelve whom He also named apostles...and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor" (Lk. 6:13, 16). Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude." (Lk. 22:3-6).

I see NOT ONE WORD where Judas eternally lost anything. Sorry. I do however SEE that SATAN, an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ENTITY did in FACT enter JUDAS. I believe THAT CAN HAPPEN, and one can then RETURN to BLINDED SLAVERY by that entity. This of course does NOT automatically mean that Judas is going to burn alive forever in fire, be eternally annihilate or be eternally separated, NOR has the RCC or any other form of orthodoxy GONE so far as to say OR place ANYONE by name into that fate. The most they ALL say is MAY and the REASON they all say MAY is because they factually DO NOT KNOW, nor do they LIMIT the extent and abilities of GODS ETERNAL MERCY, knowing that THEIR MAY can in fact be OVER RULED by God Himself.

Some orthodox believers however have gotten pretty heady about their proclamations, going WELL beyond the confines of their own official positions.

Next, there is Nicolas, one of the original seven deacons. We read: "Seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint...and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch" (Acts 6:3, 5). Sometime later, Nicolas founded and led the Gnostic Nicolaitan sect, a heretical band of schismatics condemned by Jesus: "But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate...Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which I hate" (Rev. 2:6, 15).

Again there is exactly ZERO in that statement that places ANY NAMED PERSON who was a believer into ETERNAL DAMNATION. Zero. The DOCTRINE was what Jesus HATED:

Rev. 2:
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

So again you are in fact COMING UP DRY and without a single SHRED of evidence 'scriptually' that ANY believer is going to lose their salvation eternally. And you will NOT find any such statements in the scriptures BECAUSE there ARE in fact NO SUCH PRESENTATIONS except what YOU have been taught 'by men' WHO have in fact only INFERRED that position by THEIR OWN sights of what is NOT THERE, not by SCRIPTURES anyway.

Another example is Demas, a co-worker of St. Paul in Rome, and friend of St. Luke: "Luke the beloved Physician and Demas greet you" (Col. 4:14). Demas abandoned apostle Paul and the Church, returning to lusts of the flesh: "For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica" (2 Tim. 4:10).

I see again exactly ZERO that Mr. Demas had 'eternally lost' his salvation.

I hope you are getting the FACT PICTURE here in that such a presentation does NOT exist.
We are not referring here to marginal congregants but rather to righteous one-time sincere believers. Judas was one of Jesus' twelve apostles. Not only was Nicolas a deacon he was described as being "full of the Holy Spirit." And Demas closely tied to no less than Apostle Paul and St. Luke.

**from "West of Jesus" by monk Anthony

What the presentation of LOSS of eternal salvation really is:

A. Non-existent as to ANY NAMED PERSON in the New Testament.
B. A doctrine or device that turns people into FEAR mongers.
C. A doctrine that MAKES people serve God for FEAR of their own HIDES

It promotes NOTHING but SELF SERVING INTERESTS not only of the person trying to 'save themselves' from GOD as if such a thing was even possible, that doctrine ALSO serves to keep the masses enraptured in fear for their lives.

It is a doctrine of 'DO THIS' OR ELSE. The only OR ELSE that is factually delievered in the text is that ONE can return to being THE DEVILS SLAVE in this present life. This much is certain. I am not convinced however from the scriptures that that is the ETERNAL FATE of such blinded slaves. Jesus did in fact come to SAVE such captives, and I believe HE is both ABLE and SUCCESSFUL in HIS Efforts.

enjoy!

squint
 
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erythro

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That entire methodology is a FEAR MONGERING DEVICE that certain sects USE to control their people WITH FEAR. It is A MAN MADE doctrine. It is A VILE doctrine.

:confused: really?

You are in covenant with God
God will never leave you or forsake his end of it (very biblical)

no power (other than God) can destroy that covenant (very biblical)

yet, you can easily turn away from God's covenants, and THAT is very scriptural
(read the old testament matey - most of it is israel leaving his covenant and worshipping idols, getting punished:)P), and then his people get redeemed)
And the covenant with jesus is an old testament one - (Jeremiah 31:31-40)

just because no power can remove you from his hand doesn't mean you can't jump...
 
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squint

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:confused: really?

You are in covenant with God
God will never leave you or forsake his end of it (very biblical)

no power (other than God) can destroy that covenant (very biblical)

yet, you can easily turn away from God's covenants, and THAT is very scriptural
(read the old testament matey - most of it is israel leaving his covenant and worshipping idols, getting punished:)P), and then his people get redeemed)
And the covenant with jesus is an old testament one - (Jeremiah 31:31-40)

just because no power can remove you from his hand doesn't mean you can't jump...

As stated prior, there simply are NO such presentations factually delivered in the texts. It is only by the inferances of men who BELIEVE they see what is in FACT NOT there. There are plenty of scriptures to the exact contrary.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I don't see 'except the jumper outer out of my hand' there either.

enjoy!

squint

 
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squint

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The delivery of ETERNAL LIFE is a 'present tense' delivery:

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,

We do not MERIT or AWARD ourselves this FATE. It IS a GIFT that can ONLY come from God. Grace by definition is: The UNmerited FAVOR of GOD.

2 Thessalonians 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace


No man 'earns' his way in the door. IF Jesus has entered the HEART of ANY person, HE is not about to 'lose' them, even if THEY are returned to temporal slaveship while in this present life.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


The Saviour doesn't abandon ship, even if WE do. He remains OUR SAVIOUR nevertheless.

enjoy!

squint
 
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Albion

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There's a word for what's in post 17. It's called prooftexting, and it's hardly something I'd hang my salvation on. Just sayin'

Your salvation is NOT in jeopardy, whether you accept Jesus' words there or not. That's one of the great things that the Reformation restored to Christianity"

At the least, I hope you can agree that 1) the claim we heard saying that there is nothing in the Bible that supports the concept of Eternal Security is factually wrong, and that 2) Jesus' own thoughts cannot be correctly described as "manmade." I'm not asking for agreement at this moment on the teaching that those whom God has chosen from out of mankind cannot be lost, just the above two matters.
 
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Albion

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The Saviour doesn't abandon ship, even if WE do. He remains OUR SAVIOUR nevertheless.

As has been said by someone else, Predestination means that God loves enough to save you even when you feel that you can't forgive yourself for your failings.

Maybe that's a good message for Miracle Storm to keep in mind.
 
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squint

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As has been said by someone else, Predestination means that God loves enough to save you even when you feel that you can't forgive yourself for your failings.

Maybe that's a good message for Miracle Storm to keep in mind.

I personally found in the belief that one could lose their salvation (yes, I once held this position because I was TAUGHT it 'by men' in fancy robes) was that I could somehow gain or earn it back again, when that is in fact quite ridiculous.

Eternal LIFE is a GIFT from God that CANNOT be EARNED or RETURNED.

s
 
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Musa80

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Your salvation is NOT in jeopardy, whether you accept Jesus' words there or not. That's one of the great things that the Reformation restored to Christianity"

Why thank you, however, I will refrain from basking in my achieved salvation until such time as I've actually completed the race. And what is this "Reformation" you speak of? :)
At the least, I hope you can agree that 1) the claim we heard saying that there is nothing in the Bible that supports the concept of Eternal Security is factually wrong, and that 2) Jesus' own thoughts cannot be correctly described as "manmade." I'm not asking for agreement at this moment on the teaching that those whom God has chosen from out of mankind cannot be lost, just the above two matters.

I will agree that there are examples within Scripture that when taken out of the context of the entirety of Revelation (Scriptural or otherwise) can lead to that understanding.
 
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