Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[Anglian]

Interesting post Anglian, it brings to mind what Americans went through in the last year.
'To Big To Fail" theory concerning Wall St. Especially concerning those with State Church's.
If businesses on Wall St. are to big to fail, I am one to suggest to make them smaller, not feed them by supporting their failed works. In regards to the Stte Church, competion for souls, (evangelism), will help change and improve upon the missionary works...my opinion.

Dear Gleb,

First let me thank you for your earlier comments; I'm glad we are understanding each other now; this can be such a difficult medium, deprived as we are of most of the physical and vocal signs that tell us so much about what we are hearing

Yes, I rather think that, despite my natural inclination, I need to think about it in the way you suggest.

If we have our catechesis right, then we shall have an interesting discussion with our Evangelical brothers and sisters. If we have neglected it, then we will receive a wake up call. If some Orthodox Christians find that a more charismatic style of worship appeals to them, then no law enacted by men will stop them from following where their heart leads.

If we are not careful we can end up looking like we have something to fear. We don't.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Dorothea]

i cannot get over this you made me ROFL... especially with your Avatar you look Assyrian girl

Except your blue eyes...Nice avatar BTW

I will have to send bbbbbb my hair color bottle I use every month coloring my hair dirty blond as my black hair have turn to gray... You could say I was born blond... haha...as I have been coloring my hair light for some time now... No wonder if you enter any EO church today you will see a variety of hair color...

From strawberry red to light blond in women and children since some are born blond but their hair color changes over time. This thread is indeed very interesting one...

That is an evidence that the EO church missionize the hair color of its parishioners hmmm.... So what happens to free will... ? Do the EO church he mentions stand by the other Christian church by the corner and "snatches" out parishioners from them? Because I have seen this hapenning in other countries in Europe that have EO churches... If he can bring forth that style of sheep steeling evangelization we will be ok then.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

I don't agree with this analysis ...No surprise

In addition, this does not address the right of nations to self-determination; it is somewhat troublesome to me that there is an expectation that other nations should be expected to be like the US in all things. yes and no, The nation I speak of is the Christian nation, notice the flag I fly,(UN), covering the globe, not just a handful of a select few.

Why would there be an effort to deconvert if the above were not the view of those attempting deconversion ?

No effort is made to 'deconvert'.(I hope not). Much effort is to be made in spreading the Logos to all.

 

[Thekla]

Interesting post Anglian, it brings to mind what Americans went through in the last year.
'To Big To Fail" theory concerning Wall St. Especially concerning those with State Church's.
If businesses on Wall St. are to big to fail, I am one to suggest to make them smaller, not feed them by supporting their failed works. In regards to the Stte Church, competion for souls, (evangelism), will help change and improve upon the missionary works...my opinion.

This is interesting, as it understands the Church through the parallel of "the market", and persons as consumers. Here then is an analysis that is familiar and acceptable to those in this culture at this time. What of cultures who do not share this understanding and ethos ? Should they be required to accept the structure of the "marketplace of ideas" and see persons as consumers ?

Is the thought that the Holy Spirit can be restrained by the existence of a "state Church", that the state church is stronger than the Holy Spirit ?

Again, the idea of the competitive marketplace as the structure by which excellence is fomented is not the cultural idea for all places, and indeed carries its own problems.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

This is interesting, as it understands the Church through the parallel of "the market", and persons as consumers. Here then is an analysis that is familiar and acceptable to those in this culture at this time. What of cultures who do not share this understanding and ethos ? Should they be required to accept the structure of the "marketplace of ideas" and see persons as consumers ?

Is the thought that the Holy Spirit can be restrained by the existence of a "state Church", that the state church is stronger than the Holy Spirit ?

Again, the idea of the competitive marketplace as the structure by which excellence is fomented is not the cultural idea for all places, and indeed carries its own problems.

good idea, thank you.
I was focusing on the hierarchy's within the mega businesses that caused the downfall of their companies and the country.

 

[Yeznik]

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Reading some of our Evangelical brothers and sisters here, I can see their point of view, and whilst instinctively disagreeing with it, I am not wholly in sympathy with the idea that in Orthodox countries where nationality and religion are closely tied up, there should be some sort of exclusion clause. If we really do have the fullness of the Truth, why exclude foreign missions - are we frightened of them? Why would that be?

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Dear brother,

I come from a country which is historically recognized as the first Christian nation in the world. Christianity is the reason why Armenia has an alphabet, music (both secular and spiritual) and the majority of the history is written by Vartabeds (Doctors of the Church). Additionally, most of the cultural and national events/holidays are rooted in a religious tradition. For countries such as Armenia Orthodoxy is deeply engraved into the people that it wholly defines an individuals moral structure, national and individual identity on a basic level.

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Thanks, I didn't know that about Greece. England, of course, has no such laws. What I do wonder is why one needs laws like that?

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I would say simply for self preservation as a part of the national identity. It would also say that religion can be used and has been used as a political catalyst. Look for example at Christianity and how it has affected politics for individual rights, equality.

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I'm not sure that fairness is quite the thing, but I do know what you mean, and have, indeed, made a not dissimilar point about Egypt. But I do worry about identifying the Faith with any nationality; the heresy of phyletism is one we much be on the watch for. The Faith has no nationality - in Him are neither Jew nor Gentile, all are one in Christ - surely?

[/FONT]

I agree with you but, we must not forget that Faith also help form nationalities and there identities. For example the underlying meaning of modern democracy was defined by the United States, based on Christian principles. These Christian principles are what have helped form its national identity. Believe it or not it is faith, whether Christian, Muslim, Atheism, or Buddhism had a great influence on the national identities and ideologies.

 

[Dorothea]

Dear brother,

I come from a country which is historically recognized as the first Christian nation in the world. Christianity is the reason why Armenia has an alphabet, music (both secular and spiritual) and the majority of the history is written by Vartabeds (Doctors of the Church). Additionally, most of the cultural and national events/holidays are rooted in a religious tradition. For countries such as Armenia Orthodoxy is deeply engraved into the people that it wholly defines an individuals moral structure, national and individual identity on a basic level.



I would say simply for self preservation as a part of the national identity. It would also say that religion can be used and has been used as a political catalyst. Look for example at Christianity and how it has affected politics for individual rights, equality.




I agree with you but, we must not forget that Faith also help form nationalities and there identities. For example the underlying meaning of modern democracy was defined by the United States, based on Christian principles. These Christian principles are what have helped form its national identity. Believe it or not it is faith, whether Christian, Muslim, Atheism, or Buddhism had a great influence on the national identities and ideologies.

Great post, Yeznik. Thank you.

 

[Anglian]

My dear brother,

A good post, and, as I say, instinctively one with which I agree. And yet I think I need to challenge my own assumptions.

I, of course, agree with what you say here:

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I come from a country which is historically recognized as the first Christian nation in the world. Christianity is the reason why Armenia has an alphabet, music (both secular and spiritual) and the majority of the history is written by Vartabeds (Doctors of the Church). Additionally, most of the cultural and national events/holidays are rooted in a religious tradition. For countries such as Armenia Orthodoxy is deeply engraved into the people that it wholly defines an individuals moral structure, national and individual identity on a basic level.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

But when you go on to say:

I would say simply for self preservation as a part of the national identity. It would also say that religion can be used and has been used as a political catalyst. Look for example at Christianity and how it has affected politics for individual rights, equality.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

that is where I would ask some questions.

Yes, preserving a national identity is important to many. But if the Church is doing its job correctly, it has nothing to fear from foreign missionaries; if it is not doing so, then a wake up call is needed. Much, much more important than national identity is a relationship with the Risen Christ. Those Jews whose concern for the national identity led them to place too great a yoke on the Gentiles were told to desist. We must not let nationalism come before the Good News. As I say, there should be no problem here. If the national Church is bringing people to Christ and managing their spiritual formation, where is the problem?

I agree with you but, we must not forget that Faith also help form nationalities and there identities. For example the underlying meaning of modern democracy was defined by the United States, based on Christian principles. These Christian principles are what have helped form its national identity. Believe it or not it is faith, whether Christian, Muslim, Atheism, or Buddhism had a great influence on the national identities and ideologies.

And, again, I agree. But the Church is not to be identified with any nationality. If the national Church is doing its job, which is bringing people to Christ, not making them Greeks, Copts or even Armenians, then it is justified; if it can't, won't, or isn't, someone else must.

What matters is Christ.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Dorothea]

Anglian, I do think you make a good and valid point about the Churches teaching their citizens in these countries better. What I think also, though, is that we need to understand (which I think you do), that the Russian and Greek people, were oppressed for 400 and 70 years. Having said that, I have no problem with rejuvinating and revitalizing the faith they clung to and kept through those dark eras in history for them. Because these countries for centuries had their faith and weren't challenged (other than by muslim or communist rule), they were not accustomed to debating or defending their faith to other Christians (which seems kind of ridiculous that they have to defend their faith to their brothers and sisters now that I've said it...sounds odd, but anyway) because their faith is intertwined with their culture and their very of how they live. It's just part of them. This is the special thing about being EO, OO, or RCC. The whole person is involved, as we use all 5 senses God gave us in worshiping our God. So, it is a way of life.

So, there was a lack of keen theological knowledge and some biblical teachings because they had no one to hone their theological skills on. So, the Christians from other countries come in and think they are not Christian, but they are, but because of their lack of defending their beliefs (lack of the knowledge needed), they are left vulnerable for those who think they are not Christians. so, I actually agree with you that the Greeks and others should learn everything about their faith as we do here. I don't know if it's going on in Greece now, but I hope so.

This is one of the good things about living in the U.S..... You hone your skills in defending your faith here because of the very fact that your Christian faith is NOT the majority in this country. So, anyway, all I ask is that this is taken into consideration. I know the OCMC and other Orthodox missions work on helping their fellow EO'S in need in other countries. I think it would be great if these evangelicals would respect the EOs and RCC's faiths and just help to revitalize them, without having to convert them.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Sister,

I do understand what you are saying, and instinctively agree. But I felt obliged to examine my own assumptions, hence some of the things I have written above.

What you write here is key:

So, there was a lack of keen theological knowledge and some biblical teachings because they had no one to hone their theological skills on. So, the Christians from other countries come in and think they are not Christian, but they are, but because of their lack of defending their beliefs (lack of the knowledge needed), they are left vulnerable for those who think they are not Christians. so, I actually agree with you that the Greeks and others should learn everything about their faith as we do here. I don't know if it's going on in Greece now, but I hope so.

If we, the OCs, do our job correctly, then we can welcome foreign missionaries and convert them!

If we are bad at our job, I'd rather know so we can up our game. I dislike Evangelical Protestants coming to Egypt, and I have seen some of the harm they have, unintentionally, caused. But laws forbidding missionaries seems wrong.

Here in the UK I'd welcome a lot of missionaries, and I'm not really fussed where they come from - I just wish they'd hurry up

peace,

Anglian

 

[racer]

Okay, let's say that there are people in these predominantly Orthodox or Catholic countries that find no solace or have problems with the beliefs and teachings of these churches. So, do you think that they should not be told about other churches which offer teachings that they find more in line with what they understand or believe to be the truth?

 

[Dorothea]

Okay, let's say that there are people in these predominantly Orthodox or Catholic countries that find no solace or have problems with the beliefs and teachings of these churches. So, do you think that they should not be told about other churches which offer teachings that they find more in line with what they understand or believe to be the truth?

I agree with Anglian that a country shouldn't ban evangelicals coming into their country, but that's up to that country. Just added my opinion. With that information, the scenario you just set out would be the type of people the evangelicals who come to the countries you mentioned should preach to, not those who are happy in their Christian beliefs.

It also depends on what you mean by having problems with the beliefs or teachings. I would assume you'd mean these people knew what the RCC and OC's teachings were (not heresay), and made a decision on their own that it wasn't what they believed. then, of course, I would reiterate what I said before. Those people would welcome the evangelicals. And the evangelicals could preach easily to these folks without having to deceive (yes, sometimes they do) those who believe differently, but are Christian.

What would be most helpful to the indeginous Christians in these countries (EO and RCC), if the evangelicals want to help those other Christians (RCC and EO) would be to help them by helping them learn about their own Churches and traditions and share readings from the NT with them, without wanting to convert them.

 

[Philothei]

Yes, preserving a national identity is important to many. But if the Church is doing its job correctly, it has nothing to fear from foreign missionaries; if it is not doing so, then a wake up call is needed. Much, much more important than national identity is a relationship with the Risen Christ. Those Jews whose concern for the national identity led them to place too great a yoke on the Gentiles were told to desist. We must not let nationalism come before the Good News. As I say, there should be no problem here. If the national Church is bringing people to Christ and managing their spiritual formation, where is the problem?

Because I understand or I tguess I think I do let me add also that to the discussion. Anglian you are saying "if the church is not doing its work properly...." you keep repeating that like the standard is....what? What is the sign that the church is not doing its job properly?
What does it mean to you what is to be done "properly" that is not done? When we get down to the specifics I think it is faith bottom line. Have I have seen the existing protestant missions to thrive and attract a massive number of converts from those lapsed EO in Russia or in Greece I might have been convinced... but as yet I have not seen that at all. From what I have seen is fast converts who usually de-convert either to the EO or at worse they do the denominational church "hoping" we experience here in America. The numbers are not at all impressive.

The National Church(and I can speak for Greece at this point) is revitalizing its outreach programs. We are doing tremendous ministry with the youth and as always have done they are doing great with the elderly ministries. We have to realize that National EO churches have the advantage to do more mission work than the ones "imported" as they know its people and again their "ethos". Ethos has nothing to do with "nationality" that some I think get mixed up and confused. EThos is the 'mentality" plus the ethics/morality of a given people i.e. America has the so called 'work ethic' it has to do with their ethos as people not their nationality as it is obviously a northernn european ethos. Greece does not as their ethos is different same with Russia. So rather than characterizing "national" is it more like "religio-political-cultural" it stems from the ideologies built in a certain people. Yazlik expressed it very accurately.

So in saying this it is not "national pride" that keeps us Orthodox rather our ethos is expressed in that religion as we as people were "steeped" both in Orthodoxy and a certain culture namely Greek or Russian etc.
For Americans their ethos is in many ways identified with their "work ethic" and expressed in Protestanism with Max Weber and followed by the rise of individualism to be followed by rise of Capitalism. I am hoping I explained it well...

As far as our situation today with mission work in general.. I also think that the US and the west are not immuned to that of "empty churches" phenomenon. I am afraid that for some part is not obvious as it has been replaced by the other alternative that is the "church hoping" epidemic. If the idea of evangelization is to that of the "fast convert" I am afraid is not the right solution as it does not eliminate any problem it just manifest itself another.... Also as we see in some cases lapsed members end up to be non-beleivers. Before the stonning takes place I just want to say that whoever does not take these factors into consideration is making a mistake not taking these into account.

The national churches do. They do care about their sheep. Times are hard some will get lost some will seek alternative faiths and churches. Are these churches/faiths going to teach a new "ethos" to the members? Even an "ethos" of a "free market" religion where one has not to make a "commitment" but can 'experience" some comfort and the with the first discomfort will quit and run off to the next one?

In the EO churches that is more serious than the actual "loosing members" as that would be the least. EO church members of what at least I know would not trust (the majority) to accept some church from a 'foreign' tradition to come to their country to tell them about what they already know..... They would question that tradition as it would be indeed foreign to their mindset but not their nationality necessarily.

Managing someone's spiritual formation presupposes knowing the people their culture and ethos. Example : Greek Evangelicals (they have a looong history in Greece) are in Greece for a while now since Greece became finally a state. They are a recognized group etc. They do worship by making the sign of the cross etc. their membership has not raised significally despite their history and continious presence in Greece. the same applies to the Catholics and the other groups there. The lapsed EO still remain the same numbers etc. I bet the same is in England with all churches (like Anglian said ) 2 million church goers out of what population?

At least Greece comes first in Chrurch attentance in Europe (gallop of about 10 years ago) I do not remember the numbers... So I honesty do not see how "opening up the market" would create more "business". It has not helped Europe a bit what makes us think it will work in a "foreign" market where buyers are not of the same mind set in Russia and Greece

 

[Philothei]

Okay, let's say that there are people in these predominantly Orthodox or Catholic countries that find no solace or have problems with the beliefs and teachings of these churches. So, do you think that they should not be told about other churches which offer teachings that they find more in line with what they understand or believe to be the truth?

because in some EO they have been there done that and no results. According to your logic then the Western Europeans should have had huge success with all this variety they have

 

[Rhamiel]

because in some EO they have been there done that and no results. According to your logic then the Western Europeans should have had huge success with all this variety they have

fair enough, their are pros and cons to both ways of doing things

 

[Philothei]

I know the OCMC and other Orthodox missions work on helping their fellow EO'S in need in other countries.

hmmmm nope the Church of Greece has more resources than the EO church in America will ever have. And as far as organization and missions we have been doing mission to Africa earlier than the rest of the EO churches did


Sorry to disagree Dorothea I know you are not in Greece and neither am I but been raised in there helps

The funny thing is they all point to Greece like we also were under an atheist regime and we WERE NOT ...
No excuse for our internal mission is alive and well forget the propaganda of empty churches there... I have to plow though hundreds every summer to find a spot to attend Liturgy... We indeed need more churches but the economy is killing us....

But laws forbidding missionaries seems wrong.

Here in the UK I'd welcome a lot of missionaries, and I'm not really fussed where they come from - I just wish they'd hurry up

I do not know about forbidding but in Greece they sure fuss over who they get years ago the Scientology went there and they kicked them out...

Now with groups like these you have to be a bit fussy

I would not feel comfortable for them to come as I feel that they would be in a hurry for finding a 'fast convert"?

 

[Dorothea]

Because I understand or I tguess I think I do let me add also that to the discussion. Anglian you are saying "if the church is not doing its work properly...." you keep repeating that like the standard is....what? What is the sign that the church is not doing its job properly?
What does it mean to you what is to be done "properly" that is not done? When we get down to the specifics I think it is faith bottom line. Have I have seen the existing protestant missions to thrive and attract a massive number of converts from those lapsed EO in Russia or in Greece I might have been convinced... but as yet I have not seen that at all. From what I have seen is fast converts who usually de-convert either to the EO or at worse they do the denominational church "hoping" we experience here in America. The numbers are not at all impressive.

The National Church(and I can speak for Greece at this point) is revitalizing its outreach programs. We are doing tremendous ministry with the youth and as always have done they are doing great with the elderly ministries. We have to realize that National EO churches have the advantage to do more mission work than the ones "imported" as they know its people and again their "ethos". Ethos has nothing to do with "nationality" that some I think get mixed up and confused. EThos is the 'mentality" plus the ethics/morality of a given people i.e. America has the so called 'work ethic' it has to do with their ethos as people not their nationality as it is obviously a northernn european ethos. Greece does not as their ethos is different same with Russia. So rather than characterizing "national" is it more like "religio-political-cultural" it stems from the ideologies built in a certain people. Yazlik expressed it very accurately.

So in saying this it is not "national pride" that keeps us Orthodox rather our ethos is expressed in that religion as we as people were "steeped" both in Orthodoxy and a certain culture namely Greek or Russian etc.
For Americans their ethos is in many ways identified with their "work ethic" and expressed in Protestanism with Max Weber and followed by the rise of individualism to be followed by rise of Capitalism. I am hoping I explained it well...

As far as our situation today with mission work in general.. I also think that the US and the west are not immuned to that of "empty churches" phenomenon. I am afraid that for some part is not obvious as it has been replaced by the other alternative that is the "church hoping" epidemic. If the idea of evangelization is to that of the "fast convert" I am afraid is not the right solution as it does not eliminate any problem it just manifest itself another.... Also as we see in some cases lapsed members end up to be non-beleivers. Before the stonning takes place I just want to say that whoever does not take these factors into consideration is making a mistake not taking these into account.

The national churches do. They do care about their sheep. Times are hard some will get lost some will seek alternative faiths and churches. Are these churches/faiths going to teach a new "ethos" to the members? Even an "ethos" of a "free market" religion where one has not to make a "commitment" but can 'experience" some comfort and the with the first discomfort will quit and run off to the next one?

In the EO churches that is more serious than the actual "loosing members" as that would be the least. EO church members of what at least I know would not trust (the majority) to accept some church from a 'foreign' tradition to come to their country to tell them about what they already know..... They would question that tradition as it would be indeed foreign to their mindset but not their nationality necessarily.

Managing someone's spiritual formation presupposes knowing the people their culture and ethos. Example : Greek Evangelicals (they have a looong history in Greece) are in Greece for a while now since Greece became finally a state. They are a recognized group etc. They do worship by making the sign of the cross etc. their membership has not raised significally despite their history and continious presence in Greece. the same applies to the Catholics and the other groups there. The lapsed EO still remain the same numbers etc. I bet the same is in England with all churches (like Anglian said ) 2 million church goers out of what population?

At least Greece comes first in Chrurch attentance in Europe (gallop of about 10 years ago) I do not remember the numbers... So I honesty do not see how "opening up the market" would create more "business". It has not helped Europe a bit what makes us think it will work in a "foreign" market where buyers are not of the same mind set in Russia and Greece

Wow! Excellent post, Philothei, and quite informative. Thank you for the "inside" scoop on Greece. I thought also of the perspective of the Churches not doing enough there....There really is only so much the hcurch and the priests can do for a member of it. The member must take the responsibility to learn their faith and teach it to their children as well. This passing down of the faith is really quite good, for the most part (and in Russia).

I'm wondering if it's true what I've heard that evangelical churches are just interested in the numbers (amount of members) they can bring in more than having a priest/spiritual father nurture and continue with them on their journey towards Christ. Could just be heresay. Just something I've heard.

 

[Dorothea]

hmmmm nope the Church of Greece has more resources than the EO church in America will ever have. And as far as organization and missions we have been doing mission to Africa earlier than the rest of the EO churches did


Sorry to disagree Dorothea I know you are not in Greece and neither am I but been raised in there helps

The funny thing is they all point to Greece like we also were under an atheist regime and we WERE NOT ...

No excuse for our internal mission is alive and well forget the propaganda of empty churches there... I have to plow though hundreds every summer to find a spot to attend Liturgy...

That's fantastic. It's true that my parents went back to Greece a couple years ago for Pascha, and the midnight resurrection service was crammed with people.

We indeed need more churches but the economy is killing us....

Ah, I'm sorry about that, Philothei. Yeah, the economy isn't great anywhere.

 

[Philothei]

I stayed there for a year as you know. Three years ago and my hubby is and served as a priest there so I know first hand

We served in a parish in Athens but every Sunday it was packed we did have many couples and young families.. There is defenately a revival in Greece about their faith
I think the same is taking place in Russia and we should invite our Russian Orthodox posters to tell us about it

 

[racer]

I agree with Anglian that a country shouldn't ban evangelicals coming into their country, but that's up to that country. Just added my opinion. With that information, the scenario you just set out would be the type of people the evangelicals who come to the countries you mentioned should preach to, not those who are happy in their Christian beliefs.

It also depends on what you mean by having problems with the beliefs or teachings. I would assume you'd mean these people knew what the RCC and OC's teachings were (not heresay), and made a decision on their own that it wasn't what they believed. then, of course, I would reiterate what I said before. Those people would welcome the evangelicals. And the evangelicals could preach easily to these folks without having to deceive (yes, sometimes they do) those who believe differently, but are Christian.

What would be most helpful to the indeginous Christians in these countries (EO and RCC), if the evangelicals want to help those other Christians (RCC and EO) would be to help them by helping them learn about their own Churches and traditions and share readings from the NT with them, without wanting to convert them.

It is clear you fully believe in the Orthodox faith, and this is probably so for most Orthodox and Catholics. But, there may be those who read Scripture and know full well what Orthodoxy teaches, yet still have problems reconciling the two. So, is it okay that a country dismiss this possibility and not allow missionaries to work there?

These people may be practicing Orthodox christians because that is all that has been available to them or because they do not know what other faiths actually teach: Do you therefore withhold the teachings of different faiths from those people?

How do you expose these people to other teachings without evangelizing?