A matter of choice....

[Byfaithalone1]

I am starting to see a theme of downplaying the Bible here. I didn't expect that that is where you were all coming from, but most of you seem to be going that route.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. However, it may be helpful for you to understand that several posters in this forum have a different perspective than I do regarding the inspiration and authority of the Bible. Although they value the Bible as a good book to read, they don't conclude that the Bible is inerrant or that is authoritative.

Please forgive me if I have inaccurately represented the thoughts of others. My intent was to help; not to muddy the waters.

It will make it harder and harder to find anything to discuss if we lack any common ground. If we are going to say the Bible is not the absolute authority, then there is nothing left to be argued.

Perhaps. I felt that way when I first came to this forum. However, it has expanded my horizons to discuss God in an environment where there is little value in appealing to Biblical authority. This does not mean that my opinion of the Bible has diminished. Rather, it has forced me to view Christianity from the perspective of those who view the Bible differently. This has given me a wider perspective on my own assumptions and motivations.

I don't have any reasons for not doing whatever it is you please outside of the Bible. Basically, we can't have a discussion about how Christians should address homosexuality if we don't agree on where Christian values and principles come from. If the Bible is not authoritative, then it is subjective and meaningless. Make it say whatever you want. Somewhat disappointing =/

When it comes to the subject of the Bible, there is not a shared platform between you and a number of posters here. However, perhaps you can still find a way to enter into dialogue on certain subjects, while understanding these differences. There are probably a number of differences between all of us who post here. For example, I am not an SDA (although I played one for more than 30 years).

BFA

 

[Avonia]

Perhaps. I felt that way when I first came to this forum. However, it has expanded my horizons to discuss God in an environment where there is little value in appealing to Biblical authority. This does not mean that my opinion of the Bible has diminished. Rather, it has forced me to view Christianity from the perspective of those who view the Bible differently. This has given me a wider perspective on my own assumptions and motivations.

Lovely.

 

[StormyOne]

Well to be fair I was being called a bigot with no common sense or something along those lines, and I did say have at it.

I don't see how guessing at your religion applies any labels to you but if you want to believe me a hypocrite then you are welcome to.

I don't find anything disconcerting about a atypical Adventist. I am mildly curious about what parts of Adventism you still like, but I hesitate to even ask.

No you misunderstand, I am not calling you a hypocrite but I found it interesting your response... as for you being a bigot with no common sense, I suspect asking for clarification might help before thinking the worst.... You can ask anything you like..... I like the potlucks, they are most excellent...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I like the potlucks, they are most excellent...

Mmmm. Potlucks. Bring on the haystacks (and the Tums).

BFA

 

[freeindeed2]

Mmmm. Potlucks. Bring on the haystacks (and the Tums).

BFA

I am not a fan of the 'mystery food' found at most SDA potlucks.

 

[StormyOne]

I am not a fan of the 'mystery food' found at most SDA potlucks.

you've been to the wrong ones.... all the potlucks I've ever attended have had identifiable food items.... it might be the punch you have to be concerned with.... yeah the "red" punch.... what's in that stuff? Not sure but it is tasty.....lol

 

[Byfaithalone1]

you've been to the wrong ones.... all the potlucks I've ever attended have had identifiable food items.... it might be the punch you have to be concerned with.... yeah the "red" punch.... what's in that stuff? Not sure but it is tasty.....lol

I'm in the camp that has a hard time turning down free food!

However, I have been to certain potlucks known to my family as "nuts and twigs potlucks" that didn't quite measure up (imagine a fully vegan menu in which seasoning is discouraged).

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

I'm in the camp that has a hard time turning down free food!

However, I have been to certain potlucks known to my family as "nuts and twigs potlucks" that didn't quite measure up (imagine a fully vegan menu in which seasoning is discouraged).

BFA

yeah I choose to avoid those......

One more question related to the topic... What is the appropriate christian response to homosexual members? In some churches musicians who are gay are exploited for their talent then discarded if it becomes clear that the person's homosexuality is no longer in doubt... That clearly is wrong.... what is the right thing to do?

 

[Avonia]

I am not a fan of the 'mystery food' found at most SDA potlucks.

"Mystery food" - that's a good one.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

yeah I choose to avoid those......

One more question related to the topic... What is the appropriate christian response to homosexual members? In some churches musicians who are gay are exploited for their talent then discarded if it becomes clear that the person's homosexuality is no longer in doubt... That clearly is wrong.... what is the right thing to do?

Stormy,

I suspect that this issue runs outside the scope of homosexuality. I submit that most churches view musicians (regardless of sexuality) as resources to be used up and cast aside. Although I am offering generalizations, I have found that church musicians tend to be widely criticized, grossly underpaid (if paid at all), overworked and under appreciated. Rather than wrapping the arms of "family" around our musicians, too many churches treat musicians as outsiders who are there to perform a service. Sadly, mine is the voice of experience. My conversations with other church musicians have confirmed that my experience is not unique.

With that said, I acknowledge that there is a deeper issue relating to homosexuality. Should homosexuals be in leadership positions? If homosexuality is a sin (and I suspect that we are not all in agreement on this point), how would we view the broader issue of placing sinners in leadership positions? If sinners are ineligible for church leadership, will we have any leaders? Where do we draw the lines? I'm not sure how to answer such questions.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Stormy,

I suspect that this issue runs outside the scope of homosexuality. I submit that most churches view musicians (regardless of sexuality) as resources to be used up and cast aside. Although I am offering generalizations, I have found that church musicians tend to be widely criticized, grossly underpaid (if paid at all), overworked and under appreciated. Rather than wrapping the arms of "family" around our musicians, too many churches treat musicians as outsiders who are there to perform a service. Sadly, mine is the voice of experience. My conversations with other church musicians have confirmed that my experience is not unique.

With that said, I acknowledge that there is a deeper issue relating to homosexuality. Should homosexuals be in leadership positions? If homosexuality is a sin (and I suspect that we are not all in agreement on this point), how would we view the broader issue of placing sinners in leadership positions? If sinners are ineligible for church leadership, will we have any leaders? Where do we draw the lines? I'm not sure how to answer such questions.

BFA

good points, especially the comments about how musicians are used and discarded..... I think for some reason the more visible "sins" are punished while others are ignored.... Pride, lying, etc are usually given a free pass, and even in cases where there is adultery depending on how popular or connected the leader or pastor is, little will be done... If on the other hand the approach is "all have sinned" then unless there is a proven infraction, anyone should be permitted to serve....

 

[Avonia]

I have found that church musicians tend to be widely criticized, grossly underpaid (if paid at all)

Some Presbyterian churches not only pay their musicians well, but they serve donuts and coffee in the foyer.

If sinners are ineligible for church leadership, will we have any leaders?

It seems we should select those who appear to have good leadership abilities, and then evaluate their performance. Then provide opportunities to further develop their gifts and mitigate their liabilities. I don't see how sexual orientation affects this one way or the other.

 

[Avonia]

I'm not sure how to answer such questions.

BFA, this is such a powerful stance. When we respond to questions with absolutes, we end inquiry. And the opportunity to gain more insight.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Some Presbyterian churches not only pay their musicians well, but they serve donuts and coffee in the foyer.

Stormy and Avonia,

Just curious -- are either of you musicians?

BFA

P.S. Coffee and donuts in the foyer? Such sacrelege.

 

[StormyOne]

Stormy and Avonia,

Just curious -- are either of you musicians?

BFA

P.S. Coffee and donuts in the foyer? Such sacrelege.

I sing every now and again.... choirs and small groups.... solos not so much any more....

 

[Sophia7]

good points, especially the comments about how musicians are used and discarded..... I think for some reason the more visible "sins" are punished while others are ignored.... Pride, lying, etc are usually given a free pass, and even in cases where there is adultery depending on how popular or connected the leader or pastor is, little will be done... If on the other hand the approach is "all have sinned" then unless there is a proven infraction, anyone should be permitted to serve....

Gossip is a common practice in churches, too, and it's quite visible, but people often give it a free pass or even encourage it. Once someone told me, "It's not gossip if it's true." I wonder how often prayer meetings and prayer circles turn into gossip sessions. I've been to several of those. How many of us haven't given in to that temptation? If sinlessness were required for leadership, none of us would be qualified.

On the other hand, if a church pastor or an elder is engaging in an adulterous relationship, for example, and people know about it, it can ruin the church's reputation in the community. I think that's one reason that people tend to address the more obvious sins, especially sexual indiscretions, and ignore the less obvious or more socially acceptable issues. We had some situations like that come up while hubby was a pastor, but most of the time those churches were unwilling to take any action because they had few people who would serve in leadership positions, so they felt that they had to stick with what they had. One of our churches had a horrible reputation in the community because of that, and, of course, everyone in town knew everything because people gossiped.

As far as homosexuality, I've met several people who have left the Adventist Church because they are gay and didn't feel comfortable there. Some of them didn't tell people, while others were more open about it, but either way, they didn't feel accepted (and some of them had other reasons for leaving, too). Some of our members, including an elder, believed that homsexuality is a choice and that it's a sin just to be attracted to someone of the same gender. I don't agree with that personally, but I think that all of us as Christians could do a much better job of "loving the sinner but not the sin," regardless of whether or not we view homosexuality as a sin.

 

[Avonia]

Stormy and Avonia,

Just curious -- are either of you musicians?

BFA

P.S. Coffee and donuts in the foyer? Such sacrelege.

I am. But I don't play often anymore. And at the moment I am not drinking coffee or eating donuts either.

 

[Kira Light]

If you don't believe the 4 gospels then I kind of boggle at what you're doing here. You don't find the Bible to be trustworthy.

If you can't trust the Bible's account of the life and teachings of Jesus, how can you even be a Christian? What Jesus do you follow? How did you learn about him and how do you know your sources are better than the Bible?

Was reading the other thread you started on how we can trust the Bible, Stormy, and I remembered this post I made. You never responded to it and I am just curious what your answer is.

 

[StormyOne]

Was reading the other thread you started on how we can trust the Bible, Stormy, and I remembered this post I made. You never responded to it and I am just curious what your answer is.

I trust The Creator, things written about him may or may not be true... The bible does not tell us about the life of Christ, it gives some snapshots, and if you remember there is a 18 yr period which is missing...

What am I doing here? Interacting with others of course..... now if you want to know what I believe regarding God, Jesus, etc, that would be another thread altogether.... How did I learn of God? Personal experience and a very young age which for me is good enough.....

 

[Kira Light]

I trust The Creator, things written about him may or may not be true... The bible does not tell us about the life of Christ, it gives some snapshots, and if you remember there is a 18 yr period which is missing...

What am I doing here? Interacting with others of course..... now if you want to know what I believe regarding God, Jesus, etc, that would be another thread altogether.... How did I learn of God? Personal experience and a very young age which for me is good enough.....

So your knowledge of who God is comes all from personal experience?