Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[the_Abbot]

I don't know what countries Orthodox were here first, but anyways here is a photo I took over Christmas time in St. Augustine Florida when I visited the Greek Orthodox shrine there that tells when they came to North America.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

Why do some Evangelical Christians go to such countries that are predominantly Christian, such as South America, Greece, or Russia (for examples) and try to preach the word of Christ and such when these people are already Christian? Why not go to other countries who have not heard the gospel or are of different religions, such as Muslim, Hindu, etc.? Doesn't make sense to me.

Dorothea, what can you say about the OCA evangelistic efforts?
MEXICO CITY, MEXICO [OCA]
Prior to his departure on Wednesday, January 13, Metropolitan Jonah visited communities throughout the region. At every mission, including one in the midst of a building project, he was well received by clergy and laity alike, answering their questions while encouraging them to share their faith with others through evangelistic ministry.
Joining Metropolitan Jonah and Bishop Alejo was His Grace, Bishop Benjamin of San Francisco and the West and Locum Tenens of the Diocese of Alaska, and Archpriest Michael Oleksa, a specialist in the evangelization of native peoples, who hope to establish links between clergy in Alaska and Mexico as a means of encouraging the latter in their evangelistic outreach to the Mexico's indigenous population.

 

[Anglian]

Perhaps some Protestant Evangelical Churches just have endless resources? They can reach out to all those who have not heard the Good News at all, and tell Orthodox Christians they have been taught incorrectly?

My only experience here is, as I wrote much earlier, in Egypt, where I see no evangelicals reaching out to the Muslims (of course they'd risk being martyrs if they did, as would their converts), just to Copts who sometimes, having thus been separated from their own Church, fall prey to Islamicists who tell them Christians worship Three Gods.
Still, nothing will stop these people doing what they feel they have been called to do - although for those of us who have witnessed some of the results, there may be some doubting exactly who called them.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Dorothea]

The EP may claim that (I haven't seen any documents, official or otherwise, stating as much) but I believe the Moscow Patriarchate has a stronger claim on US soil than the EP, and I say that as a member of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia which is under the EP. In my not so humble opinion I believe the EP needs to let go and let God. The Orthodox Church does not depend on the survival of the Constantinopolian Patriarchate, nor does the spiritual well being of the many crypto Orthodox in Turkey depend on it. In some ways I think it may actually be a hindrance, but that is only my opinion.

John

I don't know why it's important which Orthodox were here first, personally. I don't see the point.

 

[Dorothea]

Dorothea, what can you say about the OCA evangelistic efforts?
MEXICO CITY, MEXICO [OCA]
Prior to his departure on Wednesday, January 13, Metropolitan Jonah visited communities throughout the region. At every mission, including one in the midst of a building project, he was well received by clergy and laity alike, answering their questions while encouraging them to share their faith with others through evangelistic ministry.
Joining Metropolitan Jonah and Bishop Alejo was His Grace, Bishop Benjamin of San Francisco and the West and Locum Tenens of the Diocese of Alaska, and Archpriest Michael Oleksa, a specialist in the evangelization of native peoples, who hope to establish links between clergy in Alaska and Mexico as a means of encouraging the latter in their evangelistic outreach to the Mexico's indigenous population.

Metropolitan Jonah is a wonderful man. I've heard wonderful things about him and have read some of his speeches. I have also met Bishop Benjamin. Wonderful man as well. Usually, when the OCMC goes to mission in other countries, it's to help those in need (the poor) and helping those poor Orthodox there and helping them build churches and such (such as they do in Kenya). I don't know of any Orthodox missionaries going to countries to deconvert existing Christians, but either doing one of two things - helping their Orthodox brothers and sisters in Kenya and Romania and the like (such as in the Romanian Orthodox orphanages), or they are missioning to those who are not of Christian faith. So, I would believe that Met. Jonah is talking about those in Mexico who are not Christians. Incidentally, one of my best friends is a Pentacostal missionary (with her husband), who build schools and teach the children English there and talk with them in their native language as well, and help feed and clothe them. It seems for her missions, the children are atheists or ones who haven't heard of Christ. If there were some Christians they were administering to, she did not say so in any of her monthly newsletters.

ETA: I might add that my friend's way of evangelizing is not what I was referring to in the OP, of course.

 

[prodromos]

Dorothea, what can you say about the OCA evangelistic efforts?
MEXICO CITY, MEXICO [OCA]
Prior to his departure on Wednesday, January 13, Metropolitan Jonah visited communities throughout the region. At every mission, including one in the midst of a building project, he was well received by clergy and laity alike, answering their questions while encouraging them to share their faith with others through evangelistic ministry.
Joining Metropolitan Jonah and Bishop Alejo was His Grace, Bishop Benjamin of San Francisco and the West and Locum Tenens of the Diocese of Alaska, and Archpriest Michael Oleksa, a specialist in the evangelization of native peoples, who hope to establish links between clergy in Alaska and Mexico as a means of encouraging the latter in their evangelistic outreach to the Mexico's indigenous population.

Are you aware that the mission in Mexico began as a result of the Bishop of the Mexican national Old Catholic Church, Jose (Cortez-y-Olmos), converting to Orthodoxy and bringing his faith community with him. He sought out the Orthodox Church himself, he was not 'evangelised'.
A similiar situation exists in Guatemala where the head of a group of former Catholics, himself a former Catholic priest, has requested they be received by the Orthodox Church.

John

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*Are you aware that the mission in Mexico began as a result of the Bishop of the Mexican national Old Catholic Church, Jose (Cortez-y-Olmos), converting to Orthodoxy and bringing his faith community with him. He sought out the Orthodox Church himself, he was not 'evangelised'.

John

Interesting and thanks for that info dear friend

Jose (Cortes y Olmos) of Mexico City - OrthodoxWiki

*snip*

His Grace the Right Reverend Bishop José (Cortés y Olmos) of Mexico City was the first bishop of the OCA's Exarchate of Mexico. Bp. José had been bishop of the Mexican National Catholic Church, a Mexican reactionary movement away from the "colonialist" Spanish Roman Catholic Church.

He led his church to Orthodox Christianity, petitioning the Orthodox Church in America in 1971 for acceptance. After he and his clergy were accepted as Orthodox priests, he was consecrated Bishop of Mexico City in 1972 to lead his community as an exarchate of the OCA.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

Are you aware that the mission in Mexico began as a result of the Bishop of the Mexican national Old Catholic Church, Jose (Cortez-y-Olmos), converting to Orthodoxy and bringing his faith community with him. He sought out the Orthodox Church himself, he was not 'evangelised'.
A similiar situation exists in Guatemala where the head of a group of former Catholics, himself a former Catholic priest, has requested they be received by the Orthodox Church.

John

No, I didn't hear the news, sounds good to me.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

Interesting and thanks for that info dear friend

Jose (Cortes y Olmos) of Mexico City - OrthodoxWiki

*snip*

His Grace the Right Reverend Bishop José (Cortés y Olmos) of Mexico City was the first bishop of the OCA's Exarchate of Mexico. Bp. José had been bishop of the Mexican National Catholic Church, a Mexican reactionary movement away from the "colonialist" Spanish Roman Catholic Church.

He led his church to Orthodox Christianity, petitioning the Orthodox Church in America in 1971 for acceptance. After he and his clergy were accepted as Orthodox priests, he was consecrated Bishop of Mexico City in 1972 to lead his community as an exarchate of the OCA.

Thanks for the additional info, most interesting to me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

then what were you complaining about? so what if there's a mission there?

I am not complaining at all, but merely answering Thekla's question which was if any Orthodox church has proselytized (missionized, if you will) another Christian denomination. The answer is yes.

I find the situation in Pella very similar to that of Protestant missionaries in Russia. Actually, I don't because, unlike Pella which has a highly educated population in religious matters, Russia does not. Therein lies the curiosity.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't know about them. It maybe possible.

The Lutherans as well as fundamentalist groups such as the Baptistis have an active primary and secondary education system as well as institutions of higher education. Other Protestant groups tend to be limited to institutions of higher education. For example, Southern Methodist University, Iowa Wesleyan College, Yale and Harvard Universities (founded by Congregational Churches), Princeton University (Presbyterian). Bryn Mawr (Quaker), Columbia University (Episcopalian), etc.

 

[Thekla]

I am not complaining at all, but merely answering Thekla's question which was if any Orthodox church has proselytized (missionized, if you will) another Christian denomination. The answer is yes.

I find the situation in Pella very similar to that of Protestant missionaries in Russia. Actually, I don't because, unlike Pella which has a highly educated population in religious matters, Russia does not. Therein lies the curiosity.

I'm not sure I read you aright;
you seem to offer hair color as evidence of the Orthodox pursuing the deconversion of Christians from their present Churches. Or did I misunderstand you ...

 

[Rhamiel]

I am not complaining at all, but merely answering Thekla's question which was if any Orthodox church has proselytized (missionized, if you will) another Christian denomination. The answer is yes.

I find the situation in Pella very similar to that of Protestant missionaries in Russia. Actually, I don't because, unlike Pella which has a highly educated population in religious matters, Russia does not. Therein lies the curiosity.

i think this is interesting, i have noticed that most protestants who convert to the Catholic or Orthodox faiths are already deeply believeing Christians who know the Bible and the history of Christianity very well, while on the other hand, most (not all but many) Catholics and Orthodox who leave their respective Churches, were lukewarm and uneducated in matters of the faith

 

[Dorothea]

i think this is interesting, i have noticed that most protestants who convert to the Catholic or Orthodox faiths are already deeply believeing Christians who know the Bible and the history of Christianity very well, while on the other hand, most (not all but many) Catholics and Orthodox who leave their respective Churches, were lukewarm and uneducated in matters of the faith

Ah, good point. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I've had a look and your claim of virtually everyone having blonde hair and blue eyes is a gross misstatement.
My eldest daughter has blonde hair and blue eyes and she is Greek. I know many Greek men and women who are likewise blue eyed and blonde. I haven't met many Russians but the ones I have met ran the gamut of physical characteristics.
Aside from that, you offer no evidence that the people you assume to be converts from amongst the locals were deliberately targeted. I myself am a convert to Orthodoxy and I can assure you that it was not so with me.

So please, deal with facts and leave your assumptions out of this discussion, unless of course you can back them up.

John

Here is the link to the website for any who would like to make their own determination - Saint Nicholas Orthodox Christian Church, Pella, Iowa

I admit that the photograph of the pascha congregation in 2008 does include a couple of very dark-complected individuals who are apparently not Dutch (nor Slavic, for that matter). In fact, one might conclude they are African in origin. Of course, as we all know the Orthodox patriarchate of Ethiopia has blessed the emigration of its members to Pella, Iowa. Not! Still, does it not seem just a bit peculiar that this church would suddenly pop up with these fair-haired members with lovely Dutch surnames if it is making every human attempt to avoid gaining members from the town?

 

[Thekla]

Here is the link to the website for any who would like to make their own determination - Saint Nicholas Orthodox Christian Church, Pella, Iowa

I admit that the photograph of the pascha congregation in 2008 does include a couple of very dark-complected individuals who are apparently not Dutch (nor Slavic, for that matter). In fact, one might conclude they are African in origin. Of course, as we all know the Orthodox patriarchate of Ethiopia has blessed the emigration of its members to Pella, Iowa. Not! Still, does it not seem just a bit peculiar that this church would suddenly pop up with these fair-haired members with lovely Dutch surnames if it is making every human attempt to avoid gaining members from the town?

So you mean that Church membership should be determined by hair color

The EOrthodox can only be dark-haired, and the Reformed Churches takes all the light haired folks. IE, dark-haired Germans should be EOrthodox, and blonde Greeks, Serbs and Russians should be in Reformed Churches only ...

My son had blond hair as a child; his hair turned brown at aprox. age 3. So he would be a Reformed Christian until age 3, then join the Church who accept the brown-hairs at age 3.

 

[Thekla]

Did you notice that St. Nicholas Church in Pella is OCA, which has its roots in Russia ?

And is it meant that if someone who is not dark-haired comes to an EO priest asking to become EO, the priest must say no based on hair color

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not sure I read you aright;
you seem to offer hair color as evidence of the Orthodox pursuing the deconversion of Christians from their present Churches. Or did I misunderstand you ...

I am afraid that hair color (as well as eye color) has become the focus of this discussion. My evidence is simply that Pella, Iowa, which is a thoroughly Dutch town with many Reformed churches now has a thriving Orthodox Church. This particular church has every evidence of being composed primarily of individuals who come from Dutch Christan families. How and why they left their churches to deconvert to Orthodoxy remains open to discussion. I have a friend in Pella who may be able to shed more light on the situation. Pella is a small, close-knit town so there are no secrets. If the Orthodox Church in Pella was at all like the Greek Orthodox Church in my own home town it would be entirely composed of ethnic Greeks (or whatever ethnicity this particular church is). To this day the Greek Orthodox Church in my home town has black-haired, browned eyed Greeks with standard Greek surnames. The only effort at outreach they make is the wonderful annual Greek fair to raise money for the church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

i think this is interesting, i have noticed that most protestants who convert to the Catholic or Orthodox faiths are already deeply believeing Christians who know the Bible and the history of Christianity very well, while on the other hand, most (not all but many) Catholics and Orthodox who leave their respective Churches, were lukewarm and uneducated in matters of the faith

That has not been my experience, but experiences do vary considerably.

 

[Thekla]

I am afraid that hair color (as well as eye color) has become the focus of this discussion. My evidence is simply that Pella, Iowa, which is a thoroughly Dutch town with many Reformed churches now has a thriving Orthodox Church. This particular church has every evidence of being composed primarily of individuals who come from Dutch Christan families. How and why they left their churches to deconvert to Orthodoxy remains open to discussion. I have a friend in Pella who may be able to shed more light on the situation. Pella is a small, close-knit town so there are no secrets. If the Orthodox Church in Pella was at all like the Greek Orthodox Church in my own home town it would be entirely composed of ethnic Greeks (or whatever ethnicity this particular church is). To this day the Greek Orthodox Church in my home town has black-haired, browned eyed Greeks with standard Greek surnames. The only effort at outreach they make is the wonderful annual Greek fair to raise money for the church.

1. Your evidence for the ethnic make-up of the parish is based on hair color; the hair color you offer as evidence of Dutch ethnicity is present also in Greek, Serbian, Russian, etc. ethnicities.

2. The Church you refer to is of Russian origin (OCA); the Russians have more blonds than the % of Greek blonds.

3. I have belonged to 3 Greek parishes; 2 in the south, one in the north of the US. I have attended several others. None of then have been "monoethnic".

4. The US population is transient, ie. people of different ethnicities move around. Unless Pella has laws governing which ethnicities may live in Pella, it is unlikely that the town is occupied soley by those of Dutch parentage.

5. Seeking converts among other Churches is not typical at all in the EO. I have known many many converts to EO -- they all came of their own volition, not through an attempt to get them to leave their denomination.

6. Have you conducted an ethnic analysis at your local GO Church, or is this a presumption based on hair color ?