Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[Philothei]

You don't suppose that every group that calls themselves Christian are actually saved, do you?

What does this has to do with Evangelicals missionizing where they are not supposed to?
Look at my post #442

 

[Dorothea]

The blood of Christians ran deep in Russia, no doubt. Not only from communist, but also from the Church to the Old-Believers as well, 17 century.

Why the Patriarch did what he did I do not know, just imagine if Jesus did not follow through and met the cross.

Evangelism is not promoting apostasy, but to offer life to those who do not know Christ. The Greeks and Antioch's are doing a great job in spreading the faith with love.

Thank you for this, as I am of Greek heritage. But anyway, my point in there is that we can't say how we'd react in those circumstances and judging other's souls who were watching the majority of their people being killed and thrown in jail. It's difficult to say. We have to remember the Patriarch is not Jesus either. The patriarch is a human man who did his best. Some of which I read about, did they take a wrong turn? Of course. The reasons? Could be many different reasons or just one - fear. Don't know, but again I don't judge this, just feel pity and saddened by what happened to those faithful in the Russian Church.

As for your last paragraph, Evangelism that is offering life to those who do not know Christ, I have no issue with. It's the evangelizing done either out of ignorance or pure malice that bothers me, when they try to convert the Catholics or Orthodox to their faith. What would be appropriate, as I've said before, was in these countries where their faith is their lives and part of their culture (as this is true with all practicing Orthodox and Catholics....your faith is your way of life and intertwined into your culture), revitalizing and nourishing their Catholic and Orthodox faiths through reiterating them in these war-torn and oppressed countries would do much good.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not really. Why? Because in reformed churches, we would already assume the the correct gospel is being preached. We can't assume that in other churches or nations. Theology matters. It isn't just to create clubs. For the reformed, theology reflects what we believe the true gospel is. So we would want to, necessarily, spread that to whomever we could. I am not above sheep stealing, either.

Ahhh......so who here on GT is preaching a "different" Gospel? Anathema let them be!!

Gala 1:8 But also if-ever we or a messenger out of heaven should be well-messaging to ye beside which we well-messagizing to ye, anathema/anaqema <331> let him be.
9 As we have declared before and at present again I am saying if any is well-messagizing beside which ye beside got, anathema let him be.

Reve 22:3 and every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be still.
And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lamb-kin/Word in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.

 

[Thekla]

So you are against evangelizing altogether, then.

The discussion in this thread is not about evangelising per se, but whether it is Christ-like to engage in sheep stealing among Christians.

Further, it is about whether it is Christ-like to try and capitalize on the distressful circumstances of others.

Also, it is about whether it is ethical for some Christians to condemn the others as "not being saved" in an effort to get them to leave their Church.

 

[Julina]

I sometimes post on another large Forum and there was an interesting thread on the EO board there.
I won't put the link up here since it is against CF rules I think, but here was one Calvinist reply concerning the EO Church being Christian:

OP: Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?

quote Calvinist/Reformed: NO! it's a heritical arminian cult that preaches another gospel, that is salvation by works and is just as twisted as the RRC

that is an absolute falsehood. there is only one gospel, and we do not teach that salvation is by works.

 

[Dorothea]

A mission Church is not the same as missionising; mission Churches are beginning parishes. A new parish location is requested; if approved, a mission parish is started. Often there is not a full-time priest there.

Are the EO from this mission parish working to de-convert the Reformed Christians in the area ?

Yes, and believe me, the missions can barely pay for keeping on the electricity in their churches than trying to go out and start evangelizing when just starting out.

 

[Thekla]

I sometimes post on another large Forum and there was an interesting thread on the EO board there.
I won't put the link up here since it is against CF rules I think, but here was one Calvinist reply concerning the EO Church being Christian:

OP: Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?

quote Calvinist/Reformed: NO! it's a heritical arminian cult that preaches another gospel, that is salvation by works and is just as twisted as the RRC

There was a book by the same title; the author is in a bit of hot water with his own ... and with the Seminary that disagrees with his claim they granted him a theological degree.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

that is an absolute falsehood. there is only one gospel, and we do not teach that salvation is by works.

No worries.....an Admin came in to clarify the part about EOs being Christian

quote Director of ****** Forum:

FWIW, EO is Christian. Distinctions are (in no particular order)

1) They embrace original sin but not original guilt (This is fine with some elements of Protestantism)
2) They reject western juridical theology (This is fine with some elements of Protestantism)
3) Salvation is best thought of as a journey and not as an event. My view is that the distinction here between east and west is one of emphasis and not necessarily one of true disagreement.

Distinctions of concern are

1) Filioque issue in the Nicean Creed. I think we could sit down a group of mature theologians and hash this one out because elements of it are rooted in word definitions but there is also a bit of theology on both sides of the issue that would need to be sorted out perhaps through a process of simplification from the discipline of historical theology.
2) Though they practice prima Scriptura, OE need to acknowledge this in terms Protestants understand.
3) High churchmen don't have problems with sacramental theology but OE also have five additional sacraments which cause Protestants concern.
4) Marian doctrines. Pitch them.
5) Icons.
6) Praying to the dead. Only one mediator and that Mediator is only Christ.

 

[Dorothea]

Okay, then since we can't judge, isn't that all the more reason to evangelize?

No, and that doesn't make sense to. She was referring to the Christians judging other Christians (as I'm sure you noted), (btw, great post, Katherine), and so no, that isn't a good reason to evangelize, but rather does the work of the Evil One in working on more infighting and more dividing in doing so. If one is looking for this and is not practicing and in a relationship with Christ, they will be open to talking with others, but forcing oneself on these people is not good. It is not Christ-like, if you ask me. And no, I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else. I'm a sinner, chief of sinners, and we're all in the same boat, if you will. But anyway, this would be reason to evangelize to those who have not heard of Christ, though, such as the atheists (although sometimes these people were Christian and it was the very actions of the runins with these evangelicals that turned them atheist. Know from personal experience as a friend of mine is this), hindus, and the like.

 

[Dorothea]

I sometimes post on another large Forum and there was an interesting thread on the EO board there.
I won't put the link up here since it is against CF rules I think, but here was one Calvinist reply concerning the EO Church being Christian:

OP: Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?

quote Calvinist/Reformed: NO! it's a heritical arminian cult that preaches another gospel, that is salvation by works and is just as twisted as the RRC

This is the work of the Evil One. These types of thoughts bring hatred and division, not healing and community.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is the work of the Evil One. These types of thoughts bring hatred and division, not healing and community.

I agree.
That particular Forum is not for the "squeamish".

I think Thekla knows which one it is ehehe....

 

[Hammster]

What does this has to do with Evangelicals missionizing where they are not supposed to?
Look at my post #442

Who determines whether they are supposed to, or not?

 

[Hammster]

No, and that doesn't make sense to. She was referring to the Christians judging other Christians (as I'm sure you noted), (btw, great post, Katherine), and so no, that isn't a good reason to evangelize, but rather does the work of the Evil One in working on more infighting and more dividing in doing so. If one is looking for this and is not practicing and in a relationship with Christ, they will be open to talking with others, but forcing oneself on these people is not good. It is not Christ-like, if you ask me. And no, I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else. I'm a sinner, chief of sinners, and we're all in the same boat, if you will. But anyway, this would be reason to evangelize to those who have not heard of Christ, though, such as the atheists (although sometimes these people were Christian and it was the very actions of the runins with these evangelicals that turned them atheist. Know from personal experience as a friend of mine is this), hindus, and the like.

I never said anything about forcing anything on anyone. I was talking about sharing the gospel.

 

[Dorothea]

I never said anything about forcing anything on anyone. I was talking about sharing the gospel.

sorry, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the evangelicals in this OP - those that do so through these coerced ways. So, again, I will repeat, those that go there to share the Gospel with those who have not heard of Christ or those who are in a vulnerable state due to being oppressed over many decades and need their faith renourished, this is fine. Going there to try to "steal" them away from their churches because the evangelicals don't believe their Christians is wrong and not Christ-like or of God.

 

[Hammster]

sorry, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the evangelicals in this OP - those that do so through these coerced ways. So, again, I will repeat, those that go there to share the Gospel with those who have not heard of Christ or those who are in a vulnerable state due to being oppressed over many decades and need their faith renourished, this is fine. Going there to try to "steal" them away from their churches because the evangelicals don't believe their Christians is wrong and not Christ-like or of God.

Here is my view. Maybe there are people who are going on 'mission' trips to places where there are established churches, and trying to convert those people to Christianity. However, I would guess that the majority of missionaries do not do that. But just because a country may have established churches does not mean that missionaries should not go there. Nor does it mean that they should assume that anyone they come across that may be from a local church is saved. There are tares among the wheat in the church. But I think it would be wrong for them NOT to go to a country just because there is already churches there.

 

[Dorothea]

Here is my view. Maybe there are people who are going on 'mission' trips to places where there are established churches, and trying to convert those people to Christianity. However, I would guess that the majority of missionaries do not do that. But just because a country may have established churches does not mean that missionaries should not go there. Nor does it mean that they should assume that anyone they come across that may be from a local church is saved. There are tares among the wheat in the church. But I think it would be wrong for them NOT to go to a country just because there is already churches there.

Well, I never said don't go to Russia at all. There are plenty of atheists that need to hear His Word there. What I disagreed with was working on converting the Russian Orthodox (who've been through hell) to leave their religion (and culture for that matter) to change and become a different type of Christian. There is no reason to do this. If the Russian Orthodox has lapsed due to the iron fist of the Communist party for the past several decades of their lives, then that missionary should nurture their native religion and help rejuvenate that Orthodox faith in them. This would be Christlike work.

You are right. We don't know who is saved in whomever's church, no matter what Christian sect. I don't believe it's a missionary's job to go hunting for those supposedly "lost" in whatever church, because these people truly do not know the hearts of any person. Only God does. The way I understand missionaries is they do the work of God through helping to build schools for poor children, feed and clothe the poor around the world, and share His Word with native Christians they find in their area in the world (mutual sharing of the Gospel, but no converting...rather working side by side with them) or to those who haven't heard His Word.

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

The second; thank-you

USA

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

except the Orthodox don't send missionaries to the protestants.

They came to the USA leaving their jurisdiction. America was founded by those seeking religous freedom and toleration. Protestants.

And since America is the melting pot that it is, the OC followed to administer to the faithful in a new country, problem is, the country was Protestant and the OC began to envangelize right in the backyard.

Who does the OC send missionaries to? Pagans? You know as well as I, the OC does not think that the Protestants are Christians and vice-versa.

 

[Secundulus]

They came to the USA leaving their jurisdiction. America was founded by those seeking religous freedom and toleration. Protestants.

That is a myth taught in our schools. The Puritans came here to set up a theocratic state of their own so that they could exclude everybody else. Religious freedom - Not.

 

[lionroar0]

That is a myth taught in our schools. The Puritans came here to set up a theocratic state of their own so that they could exclude everybody else. Religious freedom - Not.

Nor are they they the only protestant group that came to the US and did that.