• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

Status
Not open for further replies.

Philothei

Love never fails
Nov 4, 2006
44,893
3,217
Northeast, USA
✟75,679.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Some people say their are "unsaved" people in the Church, but how do you judge who these "unsaved" people are? If they tell you they are already Christian and you don't really know them how do you judge this?

If one took their time to get "informed"/"ecucated" in the EO they would know that salvation although not "earned" still is severed if one does not live the commandments of God. That is the EO perspective in salvation. Not everyone who says "Lord Lord will be saved". or for some the "proof" of one being saved is the way ones lives.

So how can we guarantee that a person will stay on the path all their lives? That is what is insinuated about salvation. We do think all are created to attain salvation but yet no everyone will chose to do so until the end... We need to keep in the race as the Apostle so clrerly declares.

Also we are not to judge others and their salvation but to seek our own. A person is part of the body of Christ and belongs to his church. The community is to take care of each other. Still it is not up to us to judge others but encourage each other each in his own race towards the salvation.... Hope that helps.
 
Upvote 0

Philothei

Love never fails
Nov 4, 2006
44,893
3,217
Northeast, USA
✟75,679.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Not even close to what the ROC has done

I wonder too... maybe you can present us with some information perhaps? We know there was an underground church in Russia at the time so... The legit Church by communists c ould not help it but being corrupted so it is kind of silly to say they were "bad" yeah well sure they were... Yet accusing a church because the state was totalitarian is hardly evidence to the corruption in the church in Russia for nowdays. ;)
 
Upvote 0

Gleb Yakunin

Active Member
Jan 22, 2010
92
5
✟272.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I wonder too... maybe you can present us with some information perhaps? We know there was an underground church in Russia at the time so... The legit Church by communists c ould not help it but being corrupted so it is kind of silly to say they were "bad" yeah well sure they were... Yet accusing a church because the state was totalitarian is hardly evidence to the corruption in the church in Russia for nowdays. ;)

not my brand of evangelism.....
Front Page Mag. 'Putin’s Spies in America' Front Page Mag, Putin's Spies in America

"KGB/FSB's New Trojan Horse: Americans of Russian Descent" by Konstantin Preobrazhenskiy


George Trofimoff, convicted in 2001, recruited into the service of the KGB" by Igor Susemihl (a.k.a. Zuzemihl), a bishop in the Russian Orthodox Church.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
not my brand of evangelism.....
Front Page Mag. 'Putin’s Spies in America' Front Page Mag, Putin's Spies in America

"KGB/FSB's New Trojan Horse: Americans of Russian Descent" by Konstantin Preobrazhenskiy


George Trofimoff, convicted in 2001, recruited into the service of the KGB" by Igor Susemihl (a.k.a. Zuzemihl), a bishop in the Russian Orthodox Church.

Well, then; you can understand the distress from the other side :thumbsup:

(BTW my husband's grandfather, because of his facility in Russian, was able to discover and expose a Cold War Communist spy ring; it works both ways.)
 
Upvote 0

Gleb Yakunin

Active Member
Jan 22, 2010
92
5
✟272.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well, then; you can understand the distress from the other side :thumbsup:

(BTW my husband's grandfather, because of his facility in Russian, was able to discover and expose a Cold War Communist spy ring; it works both ways.)

No, I really do not understand this 'distress idea' of yours. Spy's kill, evangelism gives birth(life). Spy's are agents of the State, Evangelist are agents of the Lord.

I do not see much of any comparison of the two. :confused:

Sorry, I did not understand the 'works both way's' part.

I love the orthodox faith, but the ROC needs to come clean. How it can do this is no easy measure.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
No, I really do not understand this 'distress idea' of yours. Spy's kill, evangelism gives birth(life). Spy's are agents of the State, Evangelist are agents of the Lord.

I do not see much of any comparison of the two. :confused:

Sorry, I did not understand the 'works both way's' part.

I love the orthodox faith, but the ROC needs to come clean. How it can do this is no easy measure.

Please refer to the history I gave.

Given the history of the use of missionaries over the past 100plus years, the effort to wrest people away from the RC and EO Churches, and the effects of deculturization - it is not always life that is the goal.

Is it any wonder that there would be caution ?

If you love the Orthodox faith, then of course you respect it. This means a respect for the people of Russia to self-determination.

As I have stated before, if instead the missionaries going to Russia had shown their commitment to helping the Orthodox Church minister to her own people, then trust could have been established.

Remember, the Russian Orthodox were severely persecuted by the USSR and KGB.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,649
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟273,511.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think there have been difficulties in every Church -- after all, the Church exists for the healing and restoration to God of sinners.

But I wonder how this responds to the conversation in this thread, and the particular circumstances under discussion.

It seems to me to be unfortunate to try and capitalize on the pain and difficulties of others. Rather, it is help that is needed for the downtrodden.
:thumbsup: What I think is important for us to remember is remember when we say "The Patriarch of Russia was working with the KGB" or words to that effect, we have to ask ourselves why, learn why by reading the history of the Church under Stalin and other Communists, and one will see why. When over 40,000 of your priests are murdered, and over 300 of your bishops are murdered, all because they didn't want to conform and resisted the Communist set of rules, and you are consistantly dealing with your life and the lives of others daily, if not hourly, I think we should be able to cut the Patriarch in Russia some slack. We, for one, wouldn't know what we would do in that position. Believe me, after reading that, I thought the same thing. Why didn't the Patriarch just resist? Well, I'm not him, and I don't know all the details other than he lost so many of his bishops and priests at that time. Did he want to add to it by resisting and cause more deaths and also to some of the laity? One cannot be so quick to guess what one would do in those circumstances. We have it made here and really don't know what fighting for your faith means.

So, I agree with Thekla. It is cruel and not of God to go out and take advantage of those who have suffered years of persecution to try to convert them to another form of Christianity. This is not of God but of the Evil One. Only he would love to see Christians stole away and broke apart and divided like that.

If one is evangelizing there to help those downtrodden, to reintroduce their own Orthodox faith (or whatever faith it is in that culture that's Christian = Catholic as well), and really cared to help them that way, that would be pleasing to God, I would think. You are helping your brothers and sisters in Christ, not tearing them apart.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,649
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟273,511.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So then you're saying that it is OK to share the Gospel with the lost in these countries?


No ,this is true if you are speaking of anyone. NO ONE is saved by membership in a religious denomination.

Why should we be more concerned with them than with any other lost people? It isn't as if they're more lost.
This is the work of the Devil, not God. Who can judge one's heart who is a Christian on whether they are truly "lost" or "saved." Only God can. You are taking His place is sorting souls out in these lost or saved columns which is dangerous to say the least, and as I said, not something God would want his servants to be doing. With your second sentence, you sound as if you know for sure with everyone you meet whether they are saved or not. This will do nothing for your soul. If this is your way of evangelizing, it would be better for your soul to just stay home and work on your own soul and pray for humbleness and for God to guide you and not to judge other's souls.



So then, you're OK with them going to Hell and with us ignoring Christ's command to preach the Gospel to them?
You have twisted this OP all about and have tunnel vision on this "people are going to hell." Again, examine your own soul before going out and trying to save others. Evangelizing in this way is not Christ's commandment, but of one's arrogant belief that they are saved and done and now one has to do is go out and convert all to my version of what I believe, and my version of who I think God is.



No, I don't have to speak individually. The Bible says that this is a principle that applies to everyone.
Misinterpretating and evangelizing as you do is not of God.

So, if they "know their faith" why do you believe they would want us to refuse to do that which their faith commands us to do?
Because other faiths, especially those who have been around longer than this country became the U.S., and the Ancient Church compiled the Bible you keep going on about, know that there are different ways of evangelizing than the erroneous way you have been taught.


No, I never said that EO isn't Christian. I said that being EO doesn't automatically make one a Christian by default.
No, it certainly doesn't. I'm glad we can agree on something here.

Even the Bible says that there are unsaved people within the church.
True. my question is how do you know this? You know the hearts of men? That's quite risky to think you do.


Yes. I know for a fact that the Bible is true when it tells us that the unsaved will go to Hell.
That's right. The question is who are they in the Christian community? Neither you nor others know for sure. Only God knows.

What'swrongwithus???You're the one who claims to be a Christian, yet denies the word of God and states that we should stand by while the lost go to Hell.
Unfortunately it is not the EO or I who twists the Bible the way in which I'd like to see it, nor makes up man made doctrines such as the pre-trib rapture, predestination, and OSAS. I don't recall saying that I believed in standing by while the lost go to hell. I pray daily and nightly for all mankind, as one should. I share my faith if asked, not by forcing, conjoling, fooling tricking, as Frank Schaeffer says was the basic way his evangelical church at the time (as he's not Protestant anymore) would try to get people into the church.

Lost people who believe in God go to Hell just as fast as lost atheists.

Why would you believe that Christians are going to Hell when Christ has promised that they are saved and that He is preparing a place in Heaven for us?

Oh, that's right: you don't believe what Jesus said.
This makes no sense. Lost people who believe in God go to Hell. What is your definition of a lost people? And then you turn around is ask why would I believe Christians are going to hell. This YOUR belief, as was just pointed out that lost people who believe in God go to hell. Not mine. You sound very confused. The Evil One's suggestions you have invited into your mind. Good grief. So, I did not say Christians were going to hell. Don't know where you got that idea.

I do believe what Jesus said, and I go by what was taught from the beginning and don't make up my own version of God through misinterpretations and erroneous teachings.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,649
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟273,511.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I agree; recall the histories I posted:

1. Some UK missionaries hope to bring the Irish to heel and change the economic system (one of the stated goals in the article I cited) by de-conversion. At the height of the Potato Famine, food is given to the starving RCatholics in exchange for anti-Catholic re-education.

2. US missionaries go to the Philippines with the goal of evangelising, including de-Catholicising, a largely RCatholic populace. The creation of a market friendly to US goals (including the establishment of a port closer to China for US trade) is hoped for by the US govt.; McKinley encourages the evangelizing. When the Filipinos prefer an indigenous self-rule, their efforts are quashed.

3. After the purchase of Alaska by the US, missionaries are used to de-Orthodox the Aleutian Orthodox (Russian jurisdiction). The goal in this opening market is to strip the native American Orthodox of their culture, language and Orthodox faith. Children are removed from their homes; in one of the homes for children, their (Orthodox) baptismal crosses are taken as they are now to become "real Christians".

Their Russian Orthodox bishop writes to McKinley to protest the over-use of the Tlinglit's resources (land, seals, etc.) and the incipient poverty they face from US companies overuse. The program re: these Native American Orthodox continues. After the 2cnd WW (and their incarceration) they return to find their Orthodox Churches defaced (reportedly by US troops).

4. US missionaries in Turkey protest the slaughter of the Armenian Christians (eventually numbering 1,000,000) to the US govt. When the accounts of this genocide leak to the western press, one US govt. official's response is that this news is "inconvenient", as it risks US goals for cooperation with the Turks (re: the Middle Eastern oil fields then owned by Turkey). The US govt. requires that US missionaries may not evangelise the non-Christians there. Many US missions leave. The Orthodox, an historical presence in this conquered (15th c) area remain, though in reduced numbers and under adverse circumstances.

5. In Central America, there is a concern to undermine a feared Communist advance and keep markets there open to US interests. Some US missionaries are keen on de-converting the RCatholics. In one document produced during this era (US), all RC priests are to be treated as "potential enemy combatants". In Guatemala, the de-conversion is assisted by US missionaries. The Guatemalan president, touted as an exemplary Evangelical Christian, becomes a temporary "poster child" for the Evangelical movement south of the US border. Later, thousands of Native Catholics on desirable lands are found in mass graves. One Guatemalan, who lost his faith in this era, remarks that who would want this Christian God, whose adherants impoverish and slaughter so many people.

6. In Russia, after the collapse of the USSR, the US appoints Larry Summers and others to provide advice to the Russian govt. on creating a free market there. Privatization and then an Oligarchy come to control a large portion of the Russian economy. Some US advisers are found to have created back-room Hedge Funds based on the Russian economy. The resulting collapse of the Russian economy is said to have reduced the life expectancy there to 58 years. Poverty is rampant, illness rife and treatment scarce. Yet US advisers claim that the Oligarchs should not be punished, but be allowed to keep their ill-gotten gains; it is the most efficient route to the desired economic system:

Anders Aslund Russian Privatization Revisited

In other words, it is acceptable for the people of Russia to experience dire poverty, as this economic suffering will at least eventually result in a western economy.



Considering this history, is it any wonder that US missionaries are suspected to be working against the interests of the Russian people ?

It is the responsibility of the State to protect its citizens.

The Orthodox do preach Christ in Russia.
It's sickening. The more I learn about my own country, the more I do not like it.
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest
It's sickening. The more I learn about my own country, the more I do not like it.

The more is the pity because multitudes are illegally entering your country in the very hope of the freedom and liberty you now enjoy. Even greater multitudes have U.S. citizenship as a high, in unattanable aspiration. I have yet to meet a Chinese citizen who does not want to become a rich, capitalist American or any Indian citizen who would gladly escape the bondage of the caste system to become an American or a Russian who would not prefer to be an American or an average Iranian Muslim who would not like to practice his religion freely in America without the domination of the mullahs and the President of Iran.

When you decide you are completely sick of the United States, our borders are perfectly open for you to emigrate to whatever country is willing to take you in.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Its Christians evangelizing Christians.

What would be your reaction if someone was evangelizing Christians in your parish to come to their denomination and preach how wrong your Christian Faith is?

That is what these Evangelicals are doing abroad.
I suppose that if they really felt like I was unsaved by my belief, then they should do it. If they just don't like my brand of Christianity, and want me to go from mine to theirs, that's different. But if they feel that the gospel is not being proclaimed in my church, I guess they should be obligated to preach it.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Why do some Evangelical Christians go to such countries that are predominantly Christian, such as South America, Greece, or Russia (for examples) and try to preach the word of Christ and such when these people are already Christian? Why not go to other countries who have not heard the gospel or are of different religions, such as Muslim, Hindu, etc.? Doesn't make sense to me.
There is a difference between being predominately Christian and being predominately so-called Christians. If the missionaries honestly think that the gospel isn't being presented, then why shouldn't they go there? And why do you think that there are no missionaries to Muslim and Hindu countries? We support a missionary family who is in a Muslim country. I heard an interview with a man who is leading a church building mission in India where they are starting 100 churches a day. Yes, a day. Not huge churches. Home churches. But the point is, that missionaries are not neglecting some for others. They are going where they feel called.
 
Upvote 0

Gleb Yakunin

Active Member
Jan 22, 2010
92
5
✟272.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
:thumbsup: What I think is important for us to remember is remember when we say "The Patriarch of Russia was working with the KGB" or words to that effect, we have to ask ourselves why, learn why by reading the history of the Church under Stalin and other Communists, and one will see why. When over 40,000 of your priests are murdered, and over 300 of your bishops are murdered, all because they didn't want to conform and resisted the Communist set of rules, and you are consistantly dealing with your life and the lives of others daily, if not hourly, I think we should be able to cut the Patriarch in Russia some slack. We, for one, wouldn't know what we would do in that position. Believe me, after reading that, I thought the same thing. Why didn't the Patriarch just resist? Well, I'm not him, and I don't know all the details other than he lost so many of his bishops and priests at that time. Did he want to add to it by resisting and cause more deaths and also to some of the laity? One cannot be so quick to guess what one would do in those circumstances. We have it made here and really don't know what fighting for your faith means.

So, I agree with Thekla. It is cruel and not of God to go out and take advantage of those who have suffered years of persecution to try to convert them to another form of Christianity. This is not of God but of the Evil One. Only he would love to see Christians stole away and broke apart and divided like that.

If one is evangelizing there to help those downtrodden, to reintroduce their own Orthodox faith (or whatever faith it is in that culture that's Christian = Catholic as well), and really cared to help them that way, that would be pleasing to God, I would think. You are helping your brothers and sisters in Christ, not tearing them apart.

The blood of Christians ran deep in Russia, no doubt. Not only from communist, but also from the Church to the Old-Believers as well, 17 century.

Why the Patriarch did what he did I do not know, just imagine if Jesus did not follow through and met the cross.

Evangelism is not promoting apostasy, but to offer life to those who do not know Christ. The Greeks and Antioch's are doing a great job in spreading the faith with love.
 
Upvote 0

Julina

Veteran
Apr 14, 2008
2,415
163
37
New Joisey
Visit site
✟25,785.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
There is a difference between being predominately Christian and being predominately so-called Christians. If the missionaries honestly think that the gospel isn't being presented, then why shouldn't they go there? And why do you think that there are no missionaries to Muslim and Hindu countries? We support a missionary family who is in a Muslim country. I heard an interview with a man who is leading a church building mission in India where they are starting 100 churches a day. Yes, a day. Not huge churches. Home churches. But the point is, that missionaries are not neglecting some for others. They are going where they feel called.
and how would you know if the gospel is being presented or not among these "predominately so-called Christian" countries?
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
The more is the pity because multitudes are illegally entering your country in the very hope of the freedom and liberty you now enjoy. Even greater multitudes have U.S. citizenship as a high, in unattanable aspiration. I have yet to meet a Chinese citizen who does not want to become a rich, capitalist American or any Indian citizen who would gladly escape the bondage of the caste system to become an American or a Russian who would not prefer to be an American or an average Iranian Muslim who would not like to practice his religion freely in America without the domination of the mullahs and the President of Iran.

When you decide you are completely sick of the United States, our borders are perfectly open for you to emigrate to whatever country is willing to take you in.

This is interesting !

There seems to be in this view a satisfaction with the status quo - that rather than strive for what is good and right in the ethical and spiritual sense, one should leave. It seems to make of patriotism pride rather than integrity.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,549
28,532
75
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,330.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
*snip*

........When you decide you are completely sick of the United States, our borders are perfectly open for you to emigrate to whatever country is willing to take you in.
I started a thread back in 2007 [before the election of Obama] and it is still going strong today :D

There are some that believe he has "Muslim" leanings.
Anywho, for those interested

http://www.christianforums.com/t5635831-38/#post36336492
Would people leave the U.S. if Sharia Laws were enacted?
 
Upvote 0

Gleb Yakunin

Active Member
Jan 22, 2010
92
5
✟272.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
and how would you know if the gospel is being presented or not among these "predominately so-called Christian" countries?

good question,

I would guess that each missionary would pull out their book of theological dogma's. A baptist may see the that the Orthodox are not right or correct, so they will send missionaries. Then the Orthodox may see that the Protestants are not credible and they will send missionaries. And the Protestants will continue to protest the Catholic's.

And so goes the cycle of Christology.
 
Upvote 0

Livindesert

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2005
2,314
59
✟2,834.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
good question,

I would guess that each missionary would pull out their book of theological dogma's. A baptist may see the that the Orthodox are not right or correct, so they will send missionaries. Then the Orthodox may see that the Protestants are not credible and they will send missionaries. And the Protestants will continue to protest the Catholic's.

And so goes the cycle of Christology.

QFT :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.