Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[Bro_Sam]

Nothing if you're administering to the "lost" and not Christians.

So then you're saying that it is OK to share the Gospel with the lost in these countries?

This is true if you are speaking of individuals who may not be strong in their faith

No ,this is true if you are speaking of anyone. NO ONE is saved by membership in a religious denomination.

which happens in any Christian sect. What you should be concerned about is going into a place where the native people have suffered for the past 70 years, and were murdered, persecuted, and thrown in jail, and those that had survived did so through their faith and basic fortitude, and having other Christians sects come in and try to deconvert them is completely the icing on the cake.

Why should we be more concerned with them than with any other lost people? It isn't as if they're more lost.

After all they've been through, let's go in and strip them of their culture and faith and convert them to something thoroughly different in theology and beliefs just because their beliefs don't line up with your modern, American Protestant beliefs.

So then, you're OK with them going to Hell and with us ignoring Christ's command to preach the Gospel to them?

Again, you have to speak individually here.

No, I don't have to speak individually. The Bible says that this is a principle that applies to everyone.

Atheism and Communism crushed Russia for 70 years, and those who survived in their catacomb churches and at their homes, too scared to go out for fear of being told they're reading their Bible or doing some kind of worship service in their homes, know their faith.

So, if they "know their faith" why do you believe they would want us to refuse to do that which their faith commands us to do?

The faith that has been since the beginning - Christ's Church. It is either simple ignorance that those evangelicals go over there thinking the EO isn't Christian

No, I never said that EO isn't Christian. I said that being EO doesn't automatically make one a Christian by default.

Even the Bible says that there are unsaved people within the church.

And you know this for a fact that these people are going to hell?

Yes. I know for a fact that the Bible is true when it tells us that the unsaved will go to Hell.

What is wrong with you people? Why don't you try preaching the Gospel to the atheists? Are they not lost? Do they not need to hear His Word?

What'swrongwithus???You're the one who claims to be a Christian, yet denies the word of God and states that we should stand by while the lost go to Hell.

Lost people who believe in God go to Hell just as fast as lost atheists.

What I care about is not making myself God in judging everyone as going to hell and treating my fellow Christians as lost souls.

Why would you believe that Christians are going to Hell when Christ has promised that they are saved and that He is preparing a place in Heaven for us?

 

[Dorothea]

I know that the Russian Church worked with the KBG for a very long time;
Patriarch Alexius II, Metropolitans Filaret of Kiev, Pitrim of Volokolamsk and many others.

I know citizens of Russia and Greece say that they are orthodox but seldom attend liturgy.

I know that there are numerous orthodox jurisdictions claiming the USA as there very own jurisdiction with dozens of bishops in regions that should only have one. All competing for the gold in the tithes.

I know that some orthodox laity brag of their righteousness by use of keyboard.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

 

[Thekla]

It would be cool if you would share the sort of information and training you received about Russian culture, and the cultures of South America

This has become a long thread, so I thought it might be acceptable to repeat myself:

Cultures tend to have different mindsets, and different ways of understanding things. They also recollect "different histories", or different aspects of the same history.

One of my concerns is that the OChurch, having been a martyr Church for so many decades, might be assisted by US Chistians as an act of brotherly love. To see the opportunity in Russia as one of helping those who had lost to rebuild and minister to their own people (the Russians).

Another concern, is that many in the US misread EOrthodoxy, and are unfamiliar with its theology and history.

Finally, protestant missionaries in Alaska were involved in actively working to de-convert the Aleut/RussianEOrthodox there (in the 20th c.) -- to make them protestant. Certainly the Orthodox Church in Russia remembers the history of her own Churches in Alaska.
Similar efforts occurred in Ireland/RCatholicism (19th c.), the Philippines/RCatholicism (19th and 20th c.), the Americas/RCatholicism (S America, 20th c), the Ukraine (20th c.) as well as the Alaskan example I mentioned above (which included the forced removal of children from their families).

Given the potential misunderstandings (theological and cultural), the historical record on attempted deconversions, and the reality of the ROrthodox as a martyr Church, perhaps it might be easier to understand the concerns.

God bless, and thank-you !

EDIT: I forgot to mention Central America during the 2oth c. as another example of de-conversion efforts (away from RCatholicism).

Hi, Bro_Sam !

I think my post was lost in the page advance, so thought to bring it forward

glory be to Jesus Christ +

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

yes, evangelizing <staff edit>

If we all had an addiction for lost souls instead of an addiction of internet squabble, it would be a much happier world.

bye, got to go and save a soul

 

[Thekla]

I know that the Russian Church worked with the KBG for a very long time;
Patriarch Alexius II, Metropolitans Filaret of Kiev, Pitrim of Volokolamsk and many others.

I know citizens of Russia and Greece say that they are orthodox but seldom attend liturgy.

I know that there are numerous orthodox jurisdictions claiming the USA as there very own jurisdiction with dozens of bishops in regions that should only have one. All competing for the gold in the tithes.

I know that some orthodox laity brag of their righteousness by use of keyboard.

I think there have been difficulties in every Church -- after all, the Church exists for the healing and restoration to God of sinners.

But I wonder how this responds to the conversation in this thread, and the particular circumstances under discussion.

It seems to me to be unfortunate to try and capitalize on the pain and difficulties of others. Rather, it is help that is needed for the downtrodden.

 

[Thekla]

yes, evangelizing; and the orthodox lack of evangelizing

If we all had an addiction for lost souls instead of an addiction of internet squabble, it would be a much happier world.

bye, got to go and save a soul

I think we all need to attend to our souls, you are correct.
As for evangelizing, the EO has been under the Ottoman, the Communists, and now Islam. As these yokes are shed, the evangelizing continues.

 

[Livindesert]

I love the Orthodox on this forum they are fun to talk to and learn about history from.

 

[seashale76]

I've found that the Orthodox Church doesn't need to go and attempt to steal people away from their churches. They tend to leave their churches on their own just fine. Take me for example. The Orthodox Church didn't steal me from anything, I walked away from Evangelicalesque Christianity without a backwards glance long before.

There are lots of converts at my church. Nobody pushes, forces, or goes out and actively attempts to get them to leave their churches. I don't hear sermons about how evil they are or how to convert them to Orthodoxy. The focus is on our own salvation. Yet, I just heard how a local Presbyterian minister sent out an e-mail to his congregation telling them that Orthodox Christianity was a cult to be avoided, and all because four families from his parish have converted to Orthodoxy. My priest told him that he didn't have to advertise at all, as he was doing it all for him.

 

[Livindesert]

I've found that the Orthodox Church doesn't need to go and attempt to steal people away from their churches. They tend to leave their churches on their own just fine. Take me for example. The Orthodox Church didn't steal me from anything, I walked away from Evangelicalesque Christianity without a backwards glance long before.

There are lots of converts at my church. Nobody pushes, forces, or goes out and actively attempts to get them to leave their churches. I don't hear sermons about how evil they are or how to convert them to Orthodoxy. The focus is on our own salvation. Yet, I just heard how a local Presbyterian minister sent out an e-mail to his congregation telling them that Orthodox Christianity was a cult to be avoided, and all because four families from his parish have converted to Orthodoxy. My priest told him that he didn't have to advertise at all, as he was doing it all for him.

Interesting thing is a lot of converts to Evangelical Christianity I have met left the Catholic or mainline churches, then went to Evangelical ones without prompting from Evangelicals.

So I guess it works both ways.

 

[seashale76]

Interesting thing is a lot of converts to Evangelical Christianity I have met left the Catholic or mainline churches, then went to Evangelical ones without prompting from Evangelicals.

So I guess it works both ways.

It does. Sure. The thing is, there is something odious about actively trying to steal people away from their current church. That's what I think the main point of this thread is.

 

[Livindesert]

It does. Sure. The thing is, there is something odious about actively trying to steal people away from their current church. That's what I think the main point of this thread is.

My only thing about the Russian situation is that they are using the state to actively percecute other Christians. To me the worst of Christianity plays out when Christians combine with the state.

 

[Thekla]

My only thing about the Russian situation is that they are using the state to actively percecute other Christians. To me the worst of Christianity plays out when Christians combine with the state.

Is the restriction of sects the same as martyrdom ?

As I have pointed out, Christ is being witnessed by the Russian Orthodox.

Given the historical use of missionaries to actively de-convert folks from their Church, to change the culture. It seems missionaries in the US are unaware of this history, yet in the 20th c. precisely this was the goal of the Guatemalan govt -- to eradicate RCatholicism and replace it with the Evangelical Church with the cooperation of US Christians.

 

[Livindesert]

Be careful about joining with the state. They are not in it to be like Christ but are in it to control people. If you are o.k. with that I cannot help you but I pray no church ever gets control of my goverment.

 

[Thekla]

Be careful about joining with the state. They are not in it to be like Christ but are in it to control people. If you are o.k. with that I cannot help you but I pray no church ever gets control of my goverment.

I agree; recall the histories I posted:

1. Some UK missionaries hope to bring the Irish to heel and change the economic system (one of the stated goals in the article I cited) by de-conversion. At the height of the Potato Famine, food is given to the starving RCatholics in exchange for anti-Catholic re-education.

2. US missionaries go to the Philippines with the goal of evangelising, including de-Catholicising, a largely RCatholic populace. The creation of a market friendly to US goals (including the establishment of a port closer to China for US trade) is hoped for by the US govt.; McKinley encourages the evangelizing. When the Filipinos prefer an indigenous self-rule, their efforts are quashed.

3. After the purchase of Alaska by the US, missionaries are used to de-Orthodox the Aleutian Orthodox (Russian jurisdiction). The goal in this opening market is to strip the native American Orthodox of their culture, language and Orthodox faith. Children are removed from their homes; in one of the homes for children, their (Orthodox) baptismal crosses are taken as they are now to become "real Christians".

Their Russian Orthodox bishop writes to McKinley to protest the over-use of the Tlinglit's resources (land, seals, etc.) and the incipient poverty they face from US companies overuse. The program re: these Native American Orthodox continues. After the 2cnd WW (and their incarceration) they return to find their Orthodox Churches defaced (reportedly by US troops).

4. US missionaries in Turkey protest the slaughter of the Armenian Christians (eventually numbering 1,000,000) to the US govt. When the accounts of this genocide leak to the western press, one US govt. official's response is that this news is "inconvenient", as it risks US goals for cooperation with the Turks (re: the Middle Eastern oil fields then owned by Turkey). The US govt. requires that US missionaries may not evangelise the non-Christians there. Many US missions leave. The Orthodox, an historical presence in this conquered (15th c) area remain, though in reduced numbers and under adverse circumstances.

5. In Central America, there is a concern to undermine a feared Communist advance and keep markets there open to US interests. Some US missionaries are keen on de-converting the RCatholics. In one document produced during this era (US), all RC priests are to be treated as "potential enemy combatants". In Guatemala, the de-conversion is assisted by US missionaries. The Guatemalan president, touted as an exemplary Evangelical Christian, becomes a temporary "poster child" for the Evangelical movement south of the US border. Later, thousands of Native Catholics on desirable lands are found in mass graves. One Guatemalan, who lost his faith in this era, remarks that who would want this Christian God, whose adherants impoverish and slaughter so many people.

6. In Russia, after the collapse of the USSR, the US appoints Larry Summers and others to provide advice to the Russian govt. on creating a free market there. Privatization and then an Oligarchy come to control a large portion of the Russian economy. Some US advisers are found to have created back-room Hedge Funds based on the Russian economy. The resulting collapse of the Russian economy is said to have reduced the life expectancy there to 58 years. Poverty is rampant, illness rife and treatment scarce. Yet US advisers claim that the Oligarchs should not be punished, but be allowed to keep their ill-gotten gains; it is the most efficient route to the desired economic system:

We should also take a leaf from American economic history. The U.S. robber barons were more similar to the Russian oligarchs than people realize. Half of them made their fortunes in the railways, and the secret of their success was their acquisition of land from the state for free. Does that not sound like loans for shares? The difference, however, was that the United States had no KGB. When President Theodore Roosevelt challenged John D. Rockefeller, he stopped at antitrust measures, using neither arbitrary punitive taxation (as advocated by Goldman) nor confiscation (seemingly being considered in the Kremlin). Many European properties derive from outright gifts from a monarch, many of them exempt from taxation until recently. Capitalism requires private property, and how it can be established is always a matter of politics. The secret of successful capitalism is to respect property rights regardless of how they originally emerged. The sooner that happens in Russia, the greater its economic growth will be.

Anders Aslund Russian Privatization Revisited

In other words, it is acceptable for the people of Russia to experience dire poverty, as this economic suffering will at least eventually result in a western economy.



Considering this history, is it any wonder that US missionaries are suspected to be working against the interests of the Russian people ?

It is the responsibility of the State to protect its citizens.

The Orthodox do preach Christ in Russia.

 

[the_Abbot]

Im wondering after reading this thread. If Protestant missionaries go into Russia or wherever to evangelize and someone tells them they are an Orthodox Christian at that point will the Protestant move on to find an unbeliever or does he take it upon himself to judge if that person is truly Christian or not?

Some people say their are "unsaved" people in the Church, but how do you judge who these "unsaved" people are? If they tell you they are already Christian and you don't really know them how do you judge this?

 

[Gleb Yakunin]

I think we all need to attend to our souls, you are correct.
As for evangelizing, the EO has been under the Ottoman, the Communists, and now Islam. As these yokes are shed, the evangelizing continues.

What do you call assisting the Communist KGB with spying (especially in the USA) , evangelizing?

I wouldn't associate evangelizing with a 'state religion' as in Russia and Greece.

And your post attacking the government of the USA and insinuating the government and missionaries are working together is just plain crazy talk. Not even close to what the ROC has done. Wonder of how many Americans died do to Russian spy's through the ROC?

 

[Thekla]

What do you call assisting the Communist KGB with spying (especially in the USA) , evangelizing?

I didn't; perhaps you could quote the post where I stated such a thing.

I wouldn't associate evangelizing with a 'state religion' as in Russia and Greece.

This is a view, but not the only view.

And your post attacking the government of the USA and insinuating the government and missionaries are working together is just plain crazy talk. Not even close to what the ROC has done. Wonder of how many Americans died do to Russian spy's through the ROC?

I am attacking nothing: I am pointing out historical incidents and the way others might draw the conclusion that missionaries have other than their stated goals.

 

[prodromos]

Wonder of how many Americans died do to Russian spy's through the ROC?

Probably next to nothing compared to the thousands of Orthodox Christians who died at the hands of the Communists in the former USSR. The Russian Orthodox Church is much more than those few corrupt individuals who capitulated to the Russian State.

John

 

[Thekla]

Interesting thing is a lot of converts to Evangelical Christianity I have met left the Catholic or mainline churches, then went to Evangelical ones without prompting from Evangelicals.

So I guess it works both ways.

Yes. And in the USSR, both were persecuted and imprisoned.
In Central America (El Salvador and Guatemala, for ex.), they were sometimes massacred side by side and also buried side by side.

In Turkey, my family (Greek Evangelicals) seemed to sometimes have more freedom because they were not Orthodox (though Christians in general had a harder time of it - including my family).

I only want people here to see the situation through a lense they may not have considered before. If we in the US can understand the way others might interpret our actions, then our efforts - where they are truly Christian in content - can be shaped to ensure that it is brotherhood, not taking advantage of someone else's misery, that is our heart.

 

[Philothei]

I wouldn't associate evangelizing with a 'state religion' as in Russia and Greece.

what do you mean? Why you would not? What is so bad that Greece has a "national church" the Church of England has one too and so forth ...Are they "choped liver" and they are not considered evangelical? All churches who "proclaim" the gospel are evangelical IMHO no exeptions. The terminology is nto exclusive to one group.