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Evolution is a Fact

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TheReasoner

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Are you a Christian? The reason why I am asking this is that you seem to enjoy having fellowship with darkness rather than light? :confused:

So he dislikes logical fallacies made to support Christianity. I do too. Shouldn't you do the same? Christianity is not a fairy tale that requires makebelieve evidence and imagined corellations to be true. Christ is Christ. He does not become any less Christ if we stop arguing His case like children who haven't done their homework yet still try to pretend they have.
Yeah, Laminin is a beautiful picture which can be used to explain Jesus' role. But it's just a picture. Just like when Jesus spoke of the mustard seed. He likened the seed to God's kingdom, it doesn't prove God's kingdom and saying it does is not going to help our case. The same happens to be true for Laminin. It doesn't prove anything at all. It can, like the mustard seed, be used as a metaphor though. But it should stop there. Dragging it further would be to lie, which is both sinful and very harmful to the Kingdom.

Just saying: As Christians we should promote truth. God does not require us to make up evidence of His existence. God is who He is, and if we research and examine that which He has created His nature will become clear to us. Of course there is a slight problem with issues like this Laminin thing. Yeah, it's cross shaped in textbooks. Yeah, it makes for a good picture of spiritual things. But when it is used as something it is not - evidence for Jesus being who He is - it ridicules the faith as a whole.
 
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TheReasoner

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I never said that the Bible is 100% literal, when it is not it is very easy to understand that it is not literal, but that what I quoted does not suggest it is something other than literal.....;)

Oh but to get the verses you quoted to support creationism you have to really start interpreting them. They don't say "God created man in His image and therefore God did not utilize natural processes." They say man was created in God's image. I agree. Of course I agree. And He created us through evolution.
A painter paints images in people's likeness and uses paint to achieve it. A photographer uses a camera, and God used the universe. I don't see how this diminishes Him in the least. Me, I get all the more amazed by this fact.
 
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Hawk007

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So he dislikes logical fallacies made to support Christianity. I do too. Shouldn't you do the same? Christianity is not a fairy tale that requires makebelieve evidence and imagined corellations to be true. Christ is Christ. He does not become any less Christ if we stop arguing His case like children who haven't done their homework yet still try to pretend they have.
Yeah, Laminin is a beautiful picture which can be used to explain Jesus' role. But it's just a picture. Just like when Jesus spoke of the mustard seed. He likened the seed to God's kingdom, it doesn't prove God's kingdom and saying it does is not going to help our case. The same happens to be true for Laminin. It doesn't prove anything at all. It can, like the mustard seed, be used as a metaphor though. But it should stop there. Dragging it further would be to lie, which is both sinful and very harmful to the Kingdom.

Just saying: As Christians we should promote truth. God does not require us to make up evidence of His existence. God is who He is, and if we research and examine that which He has created His nature will become clear to us. Of course there is a slight problem with issues like this Laminin thing. Yeah, it's cross shaped in textbooks. Yeah, it makes for a good picture of spiritual things. But when it is used as something it is not - evidence for Jesus being who He is - it ridicules the faith as a whole.

I agree, laminin is not Jesus, but there are quite a few similarities in it's character or purpose to what Jesus did and do for us.....;)
 
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TheReasoner

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I agree, laminin is not Jesus, but there are quite a few similarities in it's character or purpose to what Jesus did and do for us.....;)

Agreed :)
You can find many such things in different branches of science if you look for it. Which is one reason why I dislike creationism, as I feel it dismisses so much beauty and wonder.

I admit I get a little frustrated when people consider things like that to be evidence which can be brought up in a discussion about God's existence though.
 
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Hawk007

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Oh but to get the verses you quoted to support creationism you have to really start interpreting them. They don't say "God created man in His image and therefore God did not utilize natural processes." They say man was created in God's image. I agree. Of course I agree. And He created us through evolution.
A painter paints images in people's likeness and uses paint to achieve it. A photographer uses a camera, and God used the universe. I don't see how this diminishes Him in the least. Me, I get all the more amazed by this fact.

Did God utilize natural processes to create man in His image? If you say so, you are implying that God did not create us immediately the way He wanted, but rather wanted us to evolve from "you tell us" after billions of years and then have His image and my question would be, are we in His image yet or are we still in our evolution process? meaning we are still animals? What gives you that idea according to the Bible my friend?

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light! He wills things into existence by His Word, not start a big bang and hope for the rest, for He is the almighty God of this universe!
 
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jpcedotal

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The Theory of Gravity.
Atomic Theory.
Germ Theory.

These are all theories, as well as facts.

Anyone who says that "evolution is just a theory" doesn't understand what a theory is.

To quote AronRa,


It is a fact that evolution happens; that biodiversity and complexity does increase, that both occur naturally only by evolutionary means.

It is a fact that alleles vary with increasing distinction in reproductive populations and that these are accelerated in genetically isolated groups.

It is a fact that natural selection, sexual selection, and genetic drift have all been proven to have predictable effect in guiding this variance.

It is a fact that significant beneficial mutations do occur and are inherited by descendant groups, and that multiple independent sets of biological markers exist to trace these lineages backwards over many generations.

It is a fact that birds are a subset of dinosaurs the same way humans are a subset of apes, primates, eutherian mammals, and vertebrate deuterostome animals.

It is a fact that the collective genome of all animals has been traced to its most basal form, and that those forms are also indicated by comparative morphology, physiology, and embryological development.

It is a fact that everything on earth has definite relatives either living nearby or evident in the fossil record.

It is a fact that the fossil record holds hundreds of definitely transitional species even according to it’s strictest definition, and that both microevolution and macroevolution have been directly-observed.

Evolution is a fact.

Is it a fact like the Global Warning hoax? Science has become more and more political because this is how they get money for research. Nothing you have stated proves anything more than the FACT you worship nature instead of God. That's why atheism is just a man-made-up word and the Bible ignores it because it is impossible to be. EVERYONE worships something...sorry to disappoint.

I am not a mammal and I do not belong to the animal kingdom nor am I related to anything else in the universe.
 
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Hawk007

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Agreed :)
You can find many such things in different branches of science if you look for it. Which is one reason why I dislike creationism, as I feel it dismisses so much beauty and wonder.

I admit I get a little frustrated when people consider things like that to be evidence which can be brought up in a discussion about God's existence though.


Is it not so that everything can be evidence for the existence of the Creator?
For there is only one Creator?
 
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Hawk007

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Careful Hawk, forum rules and all.

Sorry, it was not focused on you, but rather on a person who proclaims he is a Christian and I am confused.....to understand him better I wanted to hear his view......
 
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Hawk007

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No, beacusee if there was evidence for the existence of god then you wouldnt need faith.


The fact that the whole earth is crawling with life and we have not managed to produce life is enough evidence for me that there is a God......life is a rarity in space, I do not know of any life found after so many years of searching thus far, am I wrong? Even the rock found with some fossilized bacteria was a hoax to get government funding for another few years.
 
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VirOptimus

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The fact that the whole earth is crawling with life and we have not managed to produce life is enough evidence for me that there is a God......life is a rarity in space, I do not know of any life found after so many years of searching thus far, am I wrong? Even the rock found with some fossilized bacteria was a hoax to get government funding for another few years.

Apart from being well, a gross misrepresentation, the above doesnt prove anything even if it was right.
 
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jpcedotal

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What facts?

Naw, I have already played this game on another thread. All that happens is I start discrediting your facts and you do the same, then the word "ignorant" gets used.

All I wish is that evolution would get taken out of the schools. No, I do not want Creationism to take its place. I think both are religious beliefs and both should be taught VOLUNTARILY, not forced.

Start the evolution church or I think there is a new religion called Scientology or something to that affect. If evolution is what you believe, then teach it at home or group and without using taxpayers money.
 
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CoderHead

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1- right there in the picture I gave you, do you think it came from nowhere?
No, we're pretty sure it came from the imagination of an artist who read more into a "vaguely cross-shaped-if-you-squint" microscopic protein.

2- If you cannot produce life how are suppose to understand how God made a molecule that holds most living things together?
So we have to produce life in order to study and understand molecules? That seems odd. Did you have to become an architect in order to live in your house?

3- The evidence is under the microscope.....
Yes, and as shown, under a microscope the protein doesn't even look a little bit like your favorite drawing. Not even a little.

Are you suggesting everything develops from something that does not have the means to think like humans can for example?
I was going to respond to this, but it's so ridiculous I cannot even think of anything to say. I'm sorry. :o

The reason why I post it here is that it does look pretty much like a cross which is normally referred to Jesus Christ
That's vague, man. This statement has all the classic signs of personal, uninformed opinion.

Just saying: As Christians we should promote truth. God does not require us to make up evidence of His existence. God is who He is, and if we research and examine that which He has created His nature will become clear to us.
The more you post, the more I like you. I wish I could sit down and talk to you in person.

I agree, laminin is not Jesus, but there are quite a few similarities in it's character or purpose to what Jesus did and do for us.
There are similarities to six-legged poodles when I look at the clouds sometimes. Does that mean anything? There are similarities to headless horsemen in striations on tree bark, but does that mean I need to seek out Ichabod Crane? You're actually doing more harm to the image of your savior than good. Stop making your God out to seem petty and illogical.

Did God utilize natural processes to create man in His image?
Sure! I'd be much more willing to accept that then the alternative. Perhaps since "a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day" it means that "God formed man from the dust of the Earth" implies a process of growth and evolution over a period of billions of years. Why not? Why can't the anecdotal creation story fit the evidence?

I think you'll find your resistance to reason is just fuel to the fire of disbelief.

I am not a mammal and I do not belong to the animal kingdom nor am I related to anything else in the universe.
Your saying so doesn't make it so. Even though you've made yourself believe this, you're still a mammal like the rest of us. Unless you're actually a Martian.

Are you a Martian?? :eek:
 
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Psudopod

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Naw, I have already played this game on another thread. All that happens is I start discrediting your facts and you do the same, then the word "ignorant" gets used.

If some can be backed up with evidence (which evolution can), you won't go round in circles unless someone refuses to see what's in front of them. Science isn't about opinions, its about about demonstrating evidence. Either you can discredit something or you can't.

All I wish is that evolution would get taken out of the schools. No, I do not want Creationism to take its place. I think both are religious beliefs and both should be taught VOLUNTARILY, not forced.


I'm sure you've got some evidence that evolution is a religion.

You think it's a good idea not to teach children about the most important theory in biology?

Start the evolution church or I think their is a new religion called Scientology or something to that affect. If evolution is what you believe, then teach it at home or group and without using taxpayers money.

Evolution = scientology? You might want to look into what evolution actually is before making statements like this.

Besides, even if you did take it out schools, all the businesses that benefit from evolution would carry on using it. All you'd do is harm the economy of America as these companies took their research abroad.
 
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Sanguis

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Naw, I have already played this game on another thread. All that happens is I start discrediting your facts and you do the same, then the word "ignorant" gets used.

All I wish is that evolution would get taken out of the schools. No, I do not want Creationism to take its place. I think both are religious beliefs and both should be taught VOLUNTARILY, not forced.

Start the evolution church or I think there is a new religion called Scientology or something to that affect. If evolution is what you believe, then teach it at home or group and without using taxpayers money.

Evolution isn't a religious belief, though.

It's an explanation for the biodiversity on Earth that fits all available data and isn't contradicted by any available data. It is a theory that was arrived at after years and years of study, experimentation and observation.

Don't try and reduce it to blind faith, because it's not.

It belongs in schools, because it's earned the right to be taught in schools by going through the entire scientific process, and has thus far, not been falsified by anything.

However, unlike religious belief, it can potentially be falsified. If we were to find say... a mammal with feathers or a reptile with mammary glands, then that would raise serious questions about its validity.

Trying to take it out of schools is incredibly reckless and if you were to succeed (Doubtful.) then you'd set mankind back 150 years. Do you realise how often and to what ends the ToE has not only made our lives easier, but healthier and safer?
 
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thaumaturgy

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Layers and layers, check out Mout St. Helens and see how the layers that were layed down very quickly look just like the geological layers that scientists believe are millions of years old.

See, this is where three classes, three lousy classes, might help you!

1. Intro geology
2. Stratigraphy
3. Petrology

Now I know appearances are important for Creationists, because details are hard and scary.

The details of pyroclastic flows or even debris flows are not the same as various layers of other materials.

Just because something is a "layer" doesn't mean it got there the same way as a pyroclastic flow. That is why it is important to understand things like, for example, shale.

Shale is often largely made up of very tiny (less than 2microns often) particles of flat, platey silicate minerals called clays. If you want an experiment you and your teens can do, try taking a jar full of water and put some mud into it. And shake it up.

Immediately the big chunkers will fall to the bottom. But you'll be left with a hazy muck suspended in the water itself. Now see how long it is before the water is perfectly clear. Just wait. If you wnt to make it even harder and more like the real world try moving the jar around every day so it isn't really all that calm, not perfectly calm.

The fine hazy stuff in the water is suspended clay minerals. It will take a very long time under very calm conditions to deposit this stuff out.

How do I know this? Because I worked in a clay lab. In order to do clay analyses the scientists had to separate out the <2um segment of the sediments and they used big tall beakers (like >1.5feet tall) to settle out the clay fraction so they could analyze it using x-ray diffraction.

Now, that's just one tiny example of how vast this field is. So just because you see a "layer" doesn't mean anything. It's what you see when you do what geologists do and get right up on the material and look at it up close.

That's the whole idea here. You have to pay attention to the details. That's the stuff that makes all the difference in the world.

And, just because you have no interest in learning the difference between a pyroclastic flow or a debris flow and a shale doesn't mean others don't.

But the best part of this whole scenario is you seem to act as if those folks who do have this interest are somehow pointlessly doing this. You can come on and wave your hands around "layers" and think that says something of value. It doesn't.

Imagine if someone were to equally denigrate the effort you put into whatever it is you do for a living?

As for the closed mind being dead, my mind is not closed to learning and growing, just closed to learning and growing in the Theory of evolution.

...and geology. Don't forget geology. As you just showed.

Lots of other areas I am actively choosing to grow.

As are we all. But that doesn't make it "OK" to tell people who've dedicated the greater portion of their adult lives to a topic how they are wrong based on your ignorance of the field.

Ursie, I spent about as much time in university and grad school studying geology as you spent in elementary through high school. Don't for one second think your personal ignorance of geology is somehow compelling.

Again I will ask the question that few Creationists will ever answer: what do you do for a living so that I might equally critique it.

Besides, LOL, I have 4 teenagers, who has time!?

Hey, that's a start. My wife and I don't have any kids but I'd be happy to critique your parenting skills! Wouldn't that be fun?

I mean, according to the words of your lord and savior in Luke 6:31 that is precisely what you want me to do!
 
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Split Rock

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Is it a fact like the Global Warning hoax? Science has become more and more political because this is how they get money for research. Nothing you have stated proves anything more than the FACT you worship nature instead of God. That's why atheism is just a man-made-up word and the Bible ignores it because it is impossible to be. EVERYONE worships something...sorry to disappoint.
1. Global warming is not a hoax.
2. Evolution does not equate with atheism.
3. Atheists do not worship nature becasue you say so.
4. Not everyone worships something, just because you like the idea of parity.

I am not a mammal and I do not belong to the animal kingdom nor am I related to anything else in the universe.
Sorry to "disappoint."
You are:
1. A eukaryote
2. An animal
3. A vertebrate
4. A tetrapod
5. A mammal
6. A primate
7. An ape

By every scientific definition of these terms. Deal with it.

Hawk007, no use trying. These cats are more closed minded than we Christians are. They will always discredit any facts that contradict them.
You have yet to produce any of these "facts."

Naw, I have already played this game on another thread. All that happens is I start discrediting your facts and you do the same, then the word "ignorant" gets used.
Let me guess how it really goes. You cut and paste a bunch of PRATTs from a creationist website, that you don't even understand. These PRATTs are easily refuted and it is pointed out to you that you have no idea what you are talking about. You claim "martyr" statis and tell everyone you are leaving because you know THE TRUTH and are just wasting your time.


All I wish is that evolution would get taken out of the schools. No, I do not want Creationism to take its place. I think both are religious beliefs and both should be taught VOLUNTARILY, not forced.
Evolution is what scientists in biology do. What scientists do is what science is. That is what should be taught. Period.


Start the evolution church or I think there is a new religion called Scientology or something to that affect. If evolution is what you believe, then teach it at home or group and without using taxpayers money.
Scientiology has nothing to do with what scientists do for a living. Taxpayer money should be spent on teaching what scientists actually use in their job in science classes. All because your narrow religious dogma disagrees with reality is no reason to keep science out of science classes. Your rhetoric changes nothing.
 
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