The Book of Joshua: A model of Revelation

[NJBeliever]

As someone who has been on these forums for a little while now, I have noticed there is a trend among some to interpret end-time scripture by what I call "Revelation + Me." As in, finding a verse and then adding our own speculation on top of it in order to fit our theology. This can be a very tricky way of interpreting scripture. I think that since the Bible is a self-confirming book, we can always find separate scripture to confirm whatever we are looking at in one instance.

Hosea 12: 9And I that am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt will yet make thee to dwell in tabernacles, as in the days of the solemn feast. 10I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.


God uses the words of His prophets and similitudes throughout the Old Testament. So the Old Testament are His Words and the similitudes are parts of his revelation of future events. Now let's look at a comparison of Joshua and Revelation:

Protagonist


Revelation: The book is The Revelation of Jesus Christ.



Joshua: Well the leader in this book is Joshua. And it just so happens that his name in Hebrew is a form of the name Jesus.

Theme


Joshua: Joshua's Mission is to recapture the Promised Land which has been taken over by usurpers.

Revelation: Jesus returns to Earth to recapture the entire planet which has been taken over by usurpers.

Witnesses


Joshua: Before Joshua goes into the land, he sends forth 2 "spies" (who end up witnessing to Rahab and she converts).

Revelation: Before Jesus returns to the Earth he sends forth 2 witnesses ahead of him who preach for 1,260 days.

A New Covenant

Joshua: In the initial attack on the Amorite capital of Jerhico, numerous rules of the Torah were violated. The Levites were not supposed to fight in battles according to God's law, yet Joshua assigns them to lead the battle. The Jews were supposed to do no work on the Sabbath Day, yet here they march around Jericho once each day and seven times on the seventh day! (interestingly they were also supposed to remain silent until a trumpet sounded and in Revelation there is a space of silence for 30 minutes before The Trumpet sounds).


Revelation: Jesus IS The New Covenant. His Church has been built by Grace, through faith in Him and not of works! The law will not save, only Jesus does.

The Antagonist

Joshua: In the book of Joshua it is Adoni-Zedek which means "The Lord of Righteousness." And all the usurper kings in the Promised Land follow him.

Revelation: In Revelation it is the antichrist which means "Substitute Christ" and all the final end-time global kings conspire to give their authority to him. In both books they are counterfeit versions of their namesake with absolute rulership.

Signs and Wonders

Joshua: 10:12Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.



The Lord uses the sun and the moon to defeat Joshua's enemies.

Revelation: At the 6th Seal, the sun goes dark and the moon turns to blood, signifying the start of the Day of The Lord. Similarly there are other "blackouts" at the 5th and 7th bowl judgments.

Men fleeing

Joshua: Right after the Lord performs these signs of the sun and moon, we read:


Joshua 10: 14And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel. 15And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, unto the camp to Gilgal. 16But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.



Revelation: What an amazing foreshadow of the Day of The Lord! Just looking at the three highlighted sections we see a match of the description of the Day of The Lord (no day like it). We also see that it is God who is going to move to action and just as prophesied in Isaiah 2, once God performs his signs the mighty, rich and powerful people flee.



Revelation 6: 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This is just one example of how we should always use the Old Testament to build our understanding of the New testament and especially our end-time theology. We don't have to make up our own ideas or speculate on things that are not in The Word. God has put everything we need to know and for understanding in His Wonderful Infallible Word. And we have the blessing of the web so we can use all sorts of commentaries, sermons, concordances and historical data for free. It's just a matter of researching, digging deep and finding it. Happy Studying and God bless!

 

[vinsight4u]

l

 

[Standing Up]

As someone who has been on these forums for a little while now, I have noticed there is a trend among some to interpret end-time scripture by what I call "Revelation + Me." As in, finding a verse and then adding our own speculation on top of it in order to fit our theology. This can be a very tricky way of interpreting scripture. I think that since the Bible is a self-confirming book, we can always find separate scripture to confirm whatever we are looking at in one instance.

Hosea 12: 9And I that am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt will yet make thee to dwell in tabernacles, as in the days of the solemn feast. 10I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.


God uses the words of His prophets and similitudes throughout the Old Testament. So the Old Testament are His Words and the similitudes are parts of his revelation of future events. Now let's look at a comparison of Joshua and Revelation:
-snip-

Great stuff!!

 

[NJBeliever]

There is not a time of silence before the trumpets sound. In Rev. 8 is just where John chose to place the trumpet details.

Look at the end of Rev. 15 as to the seven plagues. After these seven plagues is when men can enter the temple.

In Rev. 8 John sees the trumpet angels from before - so he lets us know that those same angels have shown up.

I saw
"the seven angels"

is not the same as
I saw
"seven angels"

Rev. 15:1 had to be experienced by John before he wrote Rev. 8.

Actually what you see in Rev 8 is a depiction is the preparation for temple worship that Aaron was instructed to do in Exodus 30. This is what's done before the worship, so it falls in line with the temple being prepared to be opened, which happens afterwards.

Not to mention that there is just no reason to deduce or extrapolate that John suddenly wrote Rev 8 out of chronological order.

 

[NJBeliever]

Great stuff!!

Thanks! Praise The Lord!

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[NJBeliever]

I did not say the Great Tribulation happens in the Sixth Seal. I said the rapture does. The Sixth seal also meets the preconditions which allow the Great Trib to BEGIN, not end. There is no Day of The Lord until after the 6th seal (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20).

And I did not say that all of Revelation is chronological order. I said you have not offered any reason from the text as to why Chapter 8 should be read as happening out of order.

The 7th Seal leads to the 1st trumpet.

And regarding the trumpets, I did not just say "use the OT" willy nilly, I specifically referenced the temple ceremony performed by Aaron and how it is a type and shadow of what we see in Chapter 8. The temple cannot be opened until that is done. So again, I disagree with you just on that point alone.

 

[vinsight4u]

.

 

[vinsight4u]

;.

 

[NJBeliever]

The 6th seal is when the sun goes black (as in darkened) as an end of the trib sign.

God shows His face in the 6th seal -this also shows the trib is over - for God is no longer hiding His face and letting Israel be sold to her enemy.

Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20.

Maybe it's just the language we're using. I am talking about the Day of The Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. And that cannot start until after the 6th seal is opened.

You cite the sun darkening at the 6th seal. That also happens aty the 5th and 7th bowl judgments. What distinguishes the 6th seal from any other event in the entire Bible is the moon turning to blood. The 6th Seal is the ONLY time in the Bible that happens. And thus we know with certainty that the Day of The Lord cannot begin until the 6th seal is opened (again looking at the aforementioned verses).

 

[Achilles6129]

I think that the sixth seal is directly before the return of Jesus Christ. Here's why:

"12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Rev. 6:12-17

The reason they are hiding themselves in the dens/rocks is to hide from the 100 lb hail:

"18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." Rev. 16:18-21

I think it is obvious if you read the two verses that the sixth seal is directly before the return of Jesus Christ, and that the reason why everyone hides in the mountains is because of the 100 lb. hail. Compare this with Isaiah 2:

"10Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. 11The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:... 19And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."
Isa. 2:10-12...19

I should also mention that an incredible storm is talked about many times in the Bible during the "day of the LORD". It is interesting to follow this pattern through the Bible...here's one example:

"31A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground." Jer. 25:31-33

 

[NJBeliever]

I think that the sixth seal is directly before the return of Jesus Christ. Here's why:

"12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Rev. 6:12-17

The reason they are hiding themselves in the dens/rocks is to hide from the 100 lb hail:

"18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." Rev. 16:18-21

I think it is obvious if you read the two verses that the sixth seal is directly before the return of Jesus Christ, and that the reason why everyone hides in the mountains is because of the 100 lb. hail. Compare this with Isaiah 2:

"10Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. 11The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:... 19And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."
Isa. 2:10-12...19

You skipped from the 6th seal to ten chapters ahead and just assume it's the same thing. Why?? The 6th seal is before the vial judgments of chapter 16. It's also before the trumpet judgments of chapter 8. It's the ceremony before the trumpet judgments that allows the temple to be open from which the vial judgments come out. So the sequence is just completely out of order the way you are describing it.

Those 2 passages are NOT the same event. There are several earthquakes throughout the Great Tribulation and that is the only similarity. Even the reaction of people on earth is different. In Rev 6, they flee into caves in abject fear and know God is now unleashing his wrath. They are literally scared to death. In Rev 16, they are blaspheming The Lord's name and there is nothing about them running or hiding. 2 different events. 2 wholly different reactions. 2 different preceding actions (6th seal, 7th vial). They are not the same.

The passage from Isaiah 2 is indeed the same event as the 6th seal opening. And it signals the BEGINNING of the day of The Lord, not the end.

Not to mention, that just reading chapter 16, Jesus does not even return in that chapter. So I just don't know how you come to any of these conclusions.

 

[Achilles6129]

I will take some of your response out of chronological order to make it easier to reply:

"Not to mention, that just reading chapter 16, Jesus does not even return in that chapter. So I just don't know how you come to any of these conclusions. "

In fact, Christ does return in Rev. 16, at the seventh vial. Here it is:

"14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done." Rev. 16:14-17

This is the battle of Armageddon - the battle of the beast/kings of the earth against Jesus Christ (Rev. 19). The return of Christ is at this vial, even though it doesn't specifically mention it, because it is shown by the reference to Armageddon. This same event is talked about in Zech. 14:

"1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. ...9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. " Zech. 14:1-3...9

"Those 2 passages are NOT the same event. There are several earthquakes throughout the Great Tribulation and that is the only similarity. Even the reaction of people on earth is different. In Rev 6, they flee into caves in abject fear and know God is now unleashing his wrath. They are literally scared to death. In Rev 16, they are blaspheming The Lord's name and there is nothing about them running or hiding. 2 different events. 2 wholly different reactions. 2 different preceding actions (6th seal, 7th vial). They are not the same."

The events are the same, and I showed the reasoning in my first post: the great hail is synonomous with them hiding in the caves (makes sense), and every island/mountain is moved in both earthquakes. Obviously, different people will react differently. They blaspheme God's name and they cry out to the mountains to cover them.

"You skipped from the 6th seal to ten chapters ahead and just assume it's the same thing. Why??"

I assumed nothing. As I pointed out above, both earthquakes cause the mountains/islands to move. Also, in the sixth seal, they cry out that "the great day of his wrath is COME." This is a reference to the return of Christ, not to the beginning of the tribulation. And, as I pointed out, Rev. 16 is also talking about the return of Christ.

"The 6th seal is before the vial judgments of chapter 16. It's also before the trumpet judgments of chapter 8. It's the ceremony before the trumpet judgments that allows the temple to be open from which the vial judgments come out. So the sequence is just completely out of order the way you are describing it. "

The book of Revelation is written out of order deliberately. There are many examples of this in Revelation. Here's another example of the return of Christ "out of order" in Revelation:

"15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev. 11:15-19

Notice that Christ returns as the seventh angel sounds ("the kingdoms of this world are becomes the kingdoms of our Lord"). Notice also the reference to great hail, which also happens in Rev. 16 (because they are the same event). In short, the seventh vial, the seventh trumpet, and the sixth seal are all the same event.

"The passage from Isaiah 2 is indeed the same event as the 6th seal opening. And it signals the BEGINNING of the day of The Lord, not the end. "

I must disagree. I think that the context of Isa. 2 is actually the return of Christ (there are several clues to this I believe), and the sixth seal opening states that the "great day of his wrath is come".

The book of Revelation is simply out of chronological order. John must have done that deliberately, but there are certain powerful patterns in it (lightnings/voices/thunders/great hail, etc.). I think that these patterns assist us in figuring it out.

 

[NJBeliever]

I will take some of your response out of chronological order to make it easier to reply:

"Not to mention, that just reading chapter 16, Jesus does not even return in that chapter. So I just don't know how you come to any of these conclusions. "

In fact, Christ does return in Rev. 16, at the seventh vial. Here it is:

"14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done." Rev. 16:14-17

This is the battle of Armageddon - the battle of the beast/kings of the earth against Jesus Christ (Rev. 19). The return of Christ is at this vial, even though it doesn't specifically mention it, because it is shown by the reference to Armageddon. This same event is talked about in Zech. 14:

"1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. ...9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. " Zech. 14:1-3...9

"Those 2 passages are NOT the same event. There are several earthquakes throughout the Great Tribulation and that is the only similarity. Even the reaction of people on earth is different. In Rev 6, they flee into caves in abject fear and know God is now unleashing his wrath. They are literally scared to death. In Rev 16, they are blaspheming The Lord's name and there is nothing about them running or hiding. 2 different events. 2 wholly different reactions. 2 different preceding actions (6th seal, 7th vial). They are not the same."

The events are the same, and I showed the reasoning in my first post: the great hail is synonomous with them hiding in the caves (makes sense), and every island/mountain is moved in both earthquakes. Obviously, different people will react differently. They blaspheme God's name and they cry out to the mountains to cover them.

"You skipped from the 6th seal to ten chapters ahead and just assume it's the same thing. Why??"

I assumed nothing. As I pointed out above, both earthquakes cause the mountains/islands to move. Also, in the sixth seal, they cry out that "the great day of his wrath is COME." This is a reference to the return of Christ, not to the beginning of the tribulation. And, as I pointed out, Rev. 16 is also talking about the return of Christ.

"The 6th seal is before the vial judgments of chapter 16. It's also before the trumpet judgments of chapter 8. It's the ceremony before the trumpet judgments that allows the temple to be open from which the vial judgments come out. So the sequence is just completely out of order the way you are describing it. "

The book of Revelation is written out of order deliberately. There are many examples of this in Revelation. Here's another example of the return of Christ "out of order" in Revelation:

"15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev. 11:15-19

Notice that Christ returns as the seventh angel sounds ("the kingdoms of this world are becomes the kingdoms of our Lord"). Notice also the reference to great hail, which also happens in Rev. 16 (because they are the same event). In short, the seventh vial, the seventh trumpet, and the sixth seal are all the same event.

"The passage from Isaiah 2 is indeed the same event as the 6th seal opening. And it signals the BEGINNING of the day of The Lord, not the end. "

I must disagree. I think that the context of Isa. 2 is actually the return of Christ (there are several clues to this I believe), and the sixth seal opening states that the "great day of his wrath is come".

The book of Revelation is simply out of chronological order. John must have done that deliberately, but there are certain powerful patterns in it (lightnings/voices/thunders/great hail, etc.). I think that these patterns assist us in figuring it out.

1) Rev 16: You realize the passage you cited does not mention Jesus, yet you call it the Second Coming. That alone should be enough to settle it. I understand that the Valley of Megiddo is where the nations will gather for battle but that particular passage does not mention Jesus' actual coming. It's just the prelude to it. You even cite Rev 19 because you obviously know that is where we see the Second Coming.

2) Two Different events -- The Rev 6 passage is following the opening of the 6th Seal. At the 5th Seal the martyrs ask the Lord when will their blood be avenged. They are told in a short space. The Day of The Lord has not even begun yet. This is the beginning. You are just ignoring Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20. The 6th Seal is the only time in the Bible these signs take place meaning without question the Day of The Lord is just starting, not ending. So again the 6th vial and the 6th Seal cannot be the same thing. Those 2 verses end the debate on their own.

-- And the wealthy and powerful people are crying out about God's Wrath because it just starting. Not because it is Christ coming. The way you describe things doesn't even make sense. On one hand the powerful rulers are scared to death and heading for the hills but at the same time they are heading to Megiddo to go fight the same Christ who they are scared to death of. It's just not even logical.

- This also goes in reference to your "earthquake" point as well. That is the only similarity. The stars are also shaken in Heaven and fall to the Earth. The Sky rolls back like a scroll. none of these major signs occur in the passage of Rev 16. Why? Because they are clearly not the same event. The Seal is opened by the Lamb, Jesus Christ Himself. The vials are being poured by angels. It's not even the same actor initiating the action. Again, because it is not the same event.

3) "The book of Revelation is simply out of chronological order. John must have done that deliberately"

-- I really don't understand such statements being made without Biblical or historical confirmation of this. What evidence are you basing this on? It's such a wild assumption to make on a hunch. Do any of the other epistles indicate this? Did John ever make a statement that he was going to write it out of order? Did any of his disciples ever state this? The only thing we get about chronology is clear:

Revelation 1:19 19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

That's a command directly from Jesus Christ. To assume that John took the liberty of mixing things up without warrant is just not persuasive at all.

 

[Achilles6129]

I'm kind of rushed for time, so my post will not be that thorough.


"1) Rev 16: You realize the passage you cited does not mention Jesus, yet you call it the Second Coming. That alone should be enough to settle it. I understand that the Valley of Megiddo is where the nations will gather for battle but that particular passage does not mention Jesus' actual coming. It's just the prelude to it. You even cite Rev 19 because you obviously know that is where we see the Second Coming. "

It actually the Second Coming, the "It is done" phrase is a reference to it, as well as Christ saying He "comes like a thief" beforehand. I would continue to prove this with the Bible but I just don't have the time right now.

"You are just ignoring Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20. The 6th Seal is the only time in the Bible these signs take place meaning without question the Day of The Lord is just starting, not ending. So again the 6th vial and the 6th Seal cannot be the same thing. Those 2 verses end the debate on their own."

The sun/moon can have those same effects PRIOR to the sixth seal as well. Remember that in the judgments in Revelation the "sun is darkened", and this would probably have an effect on the moon as well. Further, I never said the sixth vial/sixth seal are the same, it is the seventh vial and sixth seal that are the same. Here are the verses that further confirm this, in addition to the ones I showed in my previous posts:

"12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Rev. 6:12-17

"1Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree." Isa. 34:1-4

You should really study these above two passages, NJ. They are the same event, and that event is the return of Jesus Christ (the destruction of the nations in Armageddon). Isaiah continues further and shows this more with the designation "Bozrah":

"5For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. " Isa. 34:5-6

The reference to Edom (Idumea), often used of the heathen in the Bible, and the reference to Bozrah (a word related to grape-gathering, see the scene in Revelation) in fact prove that this is the exact scene of Armageddon. Here's your proof:

"1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. 2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? 3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." Isa. 63:1-3

"18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." Rev 14:18-20

"13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. " Rev. 19:13

See how it all relates? Rev. 6 is indeed a passage referring to the return of Jesus Christ, and there is more than one similarity (other than mountains/islands moving) to prove it.

"This also goes in reference to your "earthquake" point as well. That is the only similarity. The stars are also shaken in Heaven and fall to the Earth. The Sky rolls back like a scroll. none of these major signs occur in the passage of Rev 16. Why? Because they are clearly not the same event. The Seal is opened by the Lamb, Jesus Christ Himself. The vials are being poured by angels. It's not even the same actor initiating the action. Again, because it is not the same event."

There is more than just the earthquake similarity (great hail. Why do you think they are hiding in the caves?). Not to mention, it is already shown that Rev. 6 is the return of Christ by the very response of the people (the great day of his wrath is COME), and the reference to Isa. 34, which is also talking about the return of Christ. You'll just have to study it.

"3) "The book of Revelation is simply out of chronological order. John must have done that deliberately"

-- I really don't understand such statements being made without Biblical or historical confirmation of this. What evidence are you basing this on? It's such a wild assumption to make on a hunch. Do any of the other epistles indicate this? Did John ever make a statement that he was going to write it out of order? Did any of his disciples ever state this? The only thing we get about chronology is clear: "

I gave you the Biblical proof that the book of Revelation was written out of chronological order. Did you read it? I will repost it again:

"15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev. 11:15-19

The return of Jesus Christ is right here (the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord). This is an example of the book of Revelation being written out of chronological order (note also the reference to earthquake/hail, and see the seventh vial). Here's another example of the book being written out of chronological order:

"7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. " Rev. 11:7

The beast is not introduced until chapter 13, yet here he is in chapter 11 alive and well.

Sorry I could not give a more thorough answer to your questions in my post. Maybe some other time. However, the sixth seal/seventh trumpet/seventh vial really are all describing the same things from different angles. Look at the Scriptures I posted.

 

[vinsight4u]

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