Some basic questions about God...

[RealityPixie]

Hello again!

While I'm visiting your fair forums I just thought I'd ask a few questions about god and xtianity that I feel I have never really recieved a proper answer to (although you've probably all heard them a million times!)...

1) Is it more important to be an xtian or to be good? (I keep getting mixed answers to this)

2) I am aware that Leviticus condemns homosexuality, and that as a result many xtians consider homosexuality a sin. But why is the fact that Leviticus also condomns eating shellfish, cutting your hair and condons slavery. Why are all these except the homosexuality passage overlooked?

And erm...I had more but have forgotten them currently, it's been a long day at work haha. Will post when I remember them.

Also I am aware that xtianity ranges from the liberal to the conservative and everyone has different interpretations of the bible, I'm looking for answers from all lines of thinking here.

 

[Supreme]

1) It's important to be good and Christian, although sometimes in Christianity, good works are seen as a sub conscious act of faith, and therefore someone doing good deeds is acting Christian, even if they do it unwittingly and unwillingly.
2) I'm a liberal, so I've no problem with homosexuality or any of those things.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

1) Is it more important to be an xtian or to be good? (I keep getting mixed answers to this)

The answer to this is a simple one. When some one becomes a Christian they recieve God's Spirit. God does not sin. He aids and draws a Christian away from sin. No genuine christian can live a bad (sinful) life. God will not allow it. The bible puts it this way:

1Jn 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

2) I am aware that Leviticus condemns homosexuality, and that as a result many xtians consider homosexuality a sin. But why is the fact that Leviticus also condomns eating shellfish, cutting your hair and condons slavery. Why are all these except the homosexuality passage overlooked?

Not all shell fish are good to eat some a poisionous, restricting what a person could eat could keep them from getting sick. The section about cutting of hair is in the same passage as the following:

Lev 19:27 "'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
Lev 19:28 "'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

It refers to special rituals that were used in idol worship. It is probably refering to that. In other words there were ritual hair cuts, that they were not to have; because they were to be free from idol worship.

As for slavery, slavery was a part of every day life at the time the bible was written, the bible layed down laws for dealings with slaves. One of those laws was every seventh year all slaves were to be set free.

 

[RealityPixie]

The answer to this is a simple one. When some one becomes a Christian they recieve God's Spirit. God does not sin. He aids and draws a Christian away from sin. No genuine christian can live a bad (sinful) life. God will not allow it. The bible puts it this way:

1Jn 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.



Not all shell fish are good to eat some a poisionous, restricting what a person could eat could keep them from getting sick. The section about cutting of hair is in the same passage as the following:

Lev 19:27 "'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
Lev 19:28 "'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

It refers to special rituals that were used in idol worship. It is probably refering to that. In other words there were ritual hair cuts, that they were not to have; because they were to be free from idol worship.

As for slavery, slavery was a part of every day life at the time the bible was written, the bible layed down laws for dealings with slaves. One of those laws was every seventh year all slaves were to be set free.

So....as a pretty good and moral atheist, in the hypothetical situation of me rocking up at the pearly gates one day, would I get let in?

So...are you saying that these passages from Lev were written to be used within the cultural context of the day, and therefore have little application to the world today, or should the passages still be followed?

 

[drich0150]

1) Is it more important to be an xtian or to be good? (I keep getting mixed answers to this)

It depends on what your end goal is. To be "good" is a relative term. Meaning what we consider to be good is only slightly better than the level of sin our society is willing to live with. For example there were some good SS men (Nazis) but given our society's standards today they would fall short.

God has introduced a standard in which true Righteousness can be found. The problem is none of us are "good" enough to obtain that level of righteousness on our own.

So if Heaven/righteousness is your Goal know that in God's eyes you'll never be "Good" enough to earn Heaven/Righteousness. That's why He sent His son to Die for our sin. Jesus's Blood bridges the gap between your "goodness" and God's perfect standard for righteousness.

I am aware that Leviticus condemns homosexuality, and that as a result many xtians consider homosexuality a sin. But why is the fact that Leviticus also condomns eating shellfish, cutting your hair and condons slavery. Why are all these except the homosexuality passage overlooked?

Because in the case of sexual immorality we have 9 other verses/commands to abstain from this behavior in the new testament. However we do not have any other mention to up hold the other commands you listed.

 

[Coralie]

1) Is it more important to be an xtian or to be good? (I keep getting mixed answers to this)

It depends what you mean by "good".

If you mean "good" as defined by secular human standards, then that standard will change constantly, so the question is moot. In one century, being a Xian might be analogous with being good, while in another it might be bad. It would depend on when you lived, and where, and the context that you're speaking in, etc.

If you mean "good" in the sense of the eternal, real, objective, transcendent Good, well, if you're a Xian then good = doing the will of God = being a Xian.

If you're not an Xian, and you're looking for the eternal, real, objective, transcendent Good, well, you've got some looking to do if you want to establish what "good" means.

You would need to clear up your question in order to get a coherent answer to that one.

2) I am aware that Leviticus condemns homosexuality, and that as a result many xtians consider homosexuality a sin. But why is the fact that Leviticus also condomns eating shellfish, cutting your hair and condons slavery. Why are all these except the homosexuality passage overlooked?

You have incorrect information on several points. Here's the conservative Xian stance (liberals might have another interpretation):

On homosexuality itself:
1. We don't consider homosexuality a sin.
2. We consider fornication and adultery a sin.
3. Fornication is sexual activity before marriage. Adultery is sex outside of marriage.
4. Marriage is between one man and one woman.
5. Anyone who engages in sexual activity outside of marriage commits fornication or adultery (depending on whether they're married to someone else).
6. I.e., when a man and a woman who are not married to each other have sex, they are committing the sin of fornication or adultery. When two men have sex, ditto. When two women have sex, ditto. When three people have sex, ditto. Etc. That is the sin that should be repented of--not the "sin" of homosexuality.

On the Levitical laws:
1. We don't follow the Levitical law. That is the Old Testament--we have a New Testament (NT).
2. The NT states clearly that adultery and fornication are sins. See, as just one example, 1 Corinthians 6:9. There are several others.
3. The NT also condemns sodomy, which some Xians will say is not the same as loving homosexual sex, but Paul (author of several books of the NT) didn't make that distinction. Personally I think he referred to all homosexual sex. See Romans 1:26-27.

Note: Being homosexual doesn't make a person damned... not even committing adultery or fornication will make someone damned. These latter actions (which are definitely grievous sins) are no worse than any other sin. What matters is repentance--and its natural result, humility.

Good luck in your search for answers, friend.

C

 

[ebia]

Hello again!

While I'm visiting your fair forums I just thought I'd ask a few questions about god and xtianity that I feel I have never really recieved a proper answer to (although you've probably all heard them a million times!)...

1) Is it more important to be an xtian or to be good? (I keep getting mixed answers to this)

It's important that we become better - that we learn to live as "citizens of heaven" for when heaven comes to earth. Being a Christian is about getting on board with that. So the two, properly understood, are inseperable.

2) I am aware that Leviticus condemns homosexuality, and that as a result many xtians consider homosexuality a sin. But why is the fact that Leviticus also condomns eating shellfish, cutting your hair and condons slavery. Why are all these except the homosexuality passage overlooked?

No-one should be quoting Leviticus as a proof text of current Christian behaviour, let alone using it to condemn non-Christians.

But, that said, historical and New Testament Christian understanding is that God's intention for sex is exclusively within monogomous, faithful, loving, chaste, hetrosexual marriage.

 

[ebia]

So....as a pretty good and moral atheist, in the hypothetical situation of me rocking up at the pearly gates one day, would I get let in?

How have you prepared yourself to be a good citizen of the perfect Kingdom if you have spent your life denying the existance and legitimacy of the King instead of trying to understand his way of doing things, and the way that Kingdom operates?

 

[Lukaris]

My 2 cents: God wants us to love God & our neighbor as ourself (see Mark 12:29-34 but read all of Mark 12), to follow the 10 commandments, and seek the salvation of His Son (see Romans 10:9-13 but read all of Romans 10 too). What about non Christians? They are in more peril but God shows mercy as indicated in the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12), the example of the good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37), the parable of sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), see also Romans 2:11-16,Romans 9:11-16, Phillipians 4:8.

 

[Van]

Hi RealityPixie, here are the biblical answers.

Is it more important to be a Christian or to be good? In a moral sense, the Bible teaches no one is good except God. So anyone who thinks they can be "good" in God's eyes has no knowledge of the Bible. Now a born again believer, washed by the blood of Jesus, appears perfect in the sight of God, and so as we struggle to follow Christ's example, our short-falls are covered, so we appear perfect.

Since the Law of Moses is not followed in every detail, how come its condemnation of homosexual behavior is still considered valid? Many of the moral laws were endorsed in the New Testament, so although the Law of Moses has been set aside, some of its principles remain in effect. So it is the fact that the New Testament tells us that homosexual behavior is sinful, that results in continued adherence to that part of the Law.

Is homosexual behavior a "worse" sin than say gluttony? As it affects the individual, I think not, but as it affects others (picture a homosexual predator grooming a teen-age boy) I think yes. Also, I have personally known a fellow who died of full blown AIDS, and the end of his life was very hard on his family and friends.

 

[salida]

1) Is it important to be a christian and good? Yes to both. John 14:4, John 3:18-Important to be a christian. We are only good because we are saved by grace through faith-its by Christ's goodness not ours. Good works is a byproduct of saving faith. Good works alone doesn't save- Isaiah 64:6- Our goodnesss is as filthy rags.
http://www.livingwaters.com/good/ Are you a good person? This is God's standard of good.


2) In the Old Testament there was a certain diet because God protected Israel as a nation like shell fish. Yes, slavery is wrong and still is just like homosexuality in the Old Testament and New Testament-Romans 1:27.

The bible interprets itself and is of no private interpretation. People like to go around reading what they want-but don't read what they don't like. Thus, cherry pick the bible.

Biblical Principles for Interpreting God’s Word


1) Follow the customary usages of the language.
2) Commit no historical or cultural blunders.
3) Make Christ central in all interpretations.
4) Be conscious of context.
5) Interpret by the analogy of the faith.
6) Recognize the progress of relevation.
7) Grant one interpretation to each phrase.
8) Choose the common sense alternative.
9) Never invent explanations to silent areas of scripture.
10) Never theorize to accommodate man’s views or religion or modern science.
11) Never base a doctrine on one passage of scripture.

 

[RealityPixie]

The answer to this is a simple one. When some one becomes a Christian they recieve God's Spirit. God does not sin. He aids and draws a Christian away from sin. No genuine christian can live a bad (sinful) life. God will not allow it. The bible puts it this way:

1Jn 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

So what about xtian criminals? Or will they get into heaven anyway? I dunno, using that line of logic, if they know they are going to get inot heaven anyway, what's to stop an xtian from committing murder? Can I really trust an xtian when they don't have to answer for their sins?

No-one should be quoting Leviticus as a proof text of current Christian behaviour, let alone using it to condemn non-Christians

.

Sorry, I'm not trying to condemn, just ask legit questions. Very often when xtians speak out against homosexuality they do so using the lev quote, so I'm questioning rather than condemning.

How have you prepared yourself to be a good citizen of the perfect Kingdom if you have spent your life denying the existance and legitimacy of the King instead of trying to understand his way of doing things, and the way that Kingdom operates?

I don't expect to get into heaven any more than I expect to find the entrance to Narnia I posed the question because I feel it reveales more about the judger than the judged.

Is homosexual behavior a "worse" sin than say gluttony? As it affects the individual, I think not, but as it affects others (picture a homosexual predator grooming a teen-age boy) I think yes. Also, I have personally known a fellow who died of full blown AIDS, and the end of his life was very hard on his family and friends.

Sorry but...I have read a statistic revealing that the vast majority of kiddie-fiddlers were straight (I can cite this if you want but can't be bothered finding it right now). Also AIDS is huge within the staright community...and using that logic, is driving a car a sin? I know lots of people who have died in car accidents, and the effect on their families was terrible.


And let me clarify what I mean by 'good'....I mean fulfilling all of the moral requirements of the bible (not lying, stealing, cheating, etc) but not actually believeing in god, or following another religion.

Oh and another question: I can understand why sex outside of marriage would be forbidden back in the day, but now that we have contraceptives and condoms and that to stop unwanted preganancy/STI's, please explain why it is forbidden now? (Note: I mean in a loving, exclusive relationship, not casual sex)

Yet again, I'm not trying to be all like [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] XTIANZ R STOOPID!!!!!!!!@@@@ONEONE. Just posing what I feel are legit questions in order to broaden my own understanding. I may disagree with xtianity, but I kinda feel like it's my obligation as a citizen of the world to understand how other people think and perceive such issues.

 

[Christos Anesti]

1. To live a Christian life is the very definition of "good". In so far as one is good their life will approximate the Christian life even if they do not acknowledge themselves to be Christian.

2. The Jewish dietary rules are not binding on Christians. The New Testament points this out. The New Testament and the Fathers of the Church teach that sex between those of the same sex is a falling short of the mark.

 

[ebia]

So what about xtian criminals? Or will they get into heaven anyway?

It's not about "going to heaven", it's about being put right in and for a world put right.

I dunno, using that line of logic, if they know they are going to get inot heaven anyway, what's to stop an xtian from committing murder?

A distant threat of punishment is not a good way of changing behavior. Behaviours are best changed by coming alongside people, showing them a better way of being, and walking along with them while they gradually, and with setbacks, take up that way. That's what Jesus did.

Can I really trust an xtian when they don't have to answer for their sins?

Christians do have to answer for their work (1 Cor 3).
.

Sorry, I'm not trying to condemn, just ask legit questions. Very often when xtians speak out against homosexuality they do so using the lev quote, so I'm questioning rather than condemning.

Clearly I wasnt' clear. The thoughtful Christian response to homosexuality is not based in quoting Leviticus. Those Christians who do are misusing the Leviticus as a proof-text. Serious Christian objection is not dependent on Leviticus but on Paul and more broadly on the bigger picture of marriage and sexual ethics.

I don't expect to get into heaven any more than I expect to find the entrance to Narnia I posed the question because I feel it reveales more about the judger than the judged.

The trouble is what you think it reveals is dependent on the distorted picture of what it is about. It's not about a system of arbitrary punishment arbitrarly waved, but about God putting right his creation and us in and for that creation. God's kingdom will come "on earth as it is in heaven" and the point of being Christian is to live now as though that had already happened. Not just trying to be good (by some vague definition) now, but living now as though Jesus kingdom were fully in effect. To turn down Roman citizenship when offered and then try to take it up when the Emperor suddenly arrives is a bit of a nonsense.

And let me clarify what I mean by 'good'....I mean fulfilling all of the moral requirements of the bible (not lying, stealing, cheating, etc) but not actually believeing in god, or following another religion.

According to Judeo/Christian thinking all sin and evil is the result of idolatory. To say "I'm good but I don't worship God" is to claim to be free of all the symptoms without doing anything about the disease.

 

[RealityPixie]

It's not about "going to heaven", it's about being put right in and for a world put right.

Actually yeah my question was regarding who gets into heaven and who goes to hell.

So ok, lets use myself as an example so we can apply this to the real world instead of using airy-fairy definitions. Here's a little about me:
-I am an atheist and apply careful thought and reason to my actions
-I believe in justice and rights (humanism)
-I'm studying for a career in youth work (basically dedicating my life to helping others)
-I give to charity and volunteer for various causes
-I perform random acts of kindness
-I have never cheated in a relationship
-I have never stolen and try not to lie
-I am good and loyal to my family and friends and always help out when needed.
-I do my best to live an environmentally healthy lifestyle
-I am not married never have been, and am not a virgin
-I am bisexual but am in a loving exclusive relationship

So that's basically some things about me. I'm not exactly an angel by I try my best to be 'good'. Will I be disqualified from heaven? Or, if I rock up there when I kick the bucket will it mean more to god that I tried to be the best person I could, but just wasn't presented with enough evidence to justify belief? And further, so long as we follow such morals and ethics, why would god care if we believe in him or not? Just sounds a bit petty and jealous to me...why is god so needy that he needs the whole world to love him or he'll make them burn in pain for eternity? Doesn't sound like the most loving of guys...

 

[ebia]

Actually yeah my question was regarding who gets into heaven and who goes to hell.

And that's half the problem - the Christian hope is not about getting to heaven verses hell. That is a popular but gross distortion of it. The Judeo/Christian hope is for God to put all creation right and resurrect his people into that "New Heavens and New Earth" not to "go to heaven when I die". Not for us to go to heaven, but for heaven to come to earth.

In some sense all that does not choose to be part of that must be excluded - call that exclusion "hell" if you want, but the medieval picture of such is way off.

Given all of that your question becomes somewhat non-sensical, and your conclusions about God meaningless because they are based of false premises.

 

[RealityPixie]

Given all of that your question becomes somewhat non-sensical, and your conclusions about God meaningless because they are based of false premises.

I don't think my questions are non-sensical, and I only base my premises on what I have learned about xtianity from xtians themselves (10 years in baptist education). I was always taught that we either go to heaven or hell. So sorry, I'm only basing my questions on what other xtains have said. In light of this, if I've only ever been taught that it's heaven or hell, would the question of who goes to which be quite valid?

 

[St_Worm2]

1) Is it more important to be an xtian or to be good? (I keep getting mixed answers to this)

2) I am aware that Leviticus condemns homosexuality, and that as a result many xtians consider homosexuality a sin. But why is the fact that Leviticus also condomns eating shellfish, cutting your hair and condons slavery. Why are all these except the homosexuality passage overlooked?

Hi RP, since being "good" will only get you to a ticket to heaven if you are PERFECTLY good your entire life (no sins whatsoever ... and only one man in history has ever been able to truthfully make that claim), I would have to say that being a Christian is more important if Heaven is your desired destination.

As far as the homosexuality thing goes, yes, the church considers homosexual acts to be sinful based on passages from Leviticus (as well as from a number of other books, especially Romans and 1 Corinthians in the NT). Please understand though, homosexuals who TRULY feel guilty about their sin and repent of it before God are as free to enter Heaven as any other sinning Christian (that's all of us, BTW) is who has repented and been forgiven of their sin, just like a former thief or glutton or murderer would be. The real problem isn't that the church is singling out homosexuals as being somehow worse than other sinners, it's that many homosexuals want the church to single out this one sin and give it a pass.

--David

 

[RealityPixie]

@ DaLeKo: Thankyou for answering my questions openly and honestly without trying to run rings around them and then try to brush them off as not making sense. I do also appreciate everyone elses imput

 

[Lukaris]

I don't think my questions are non-sensical, and I only base my premises on what I have learned about xtianity from xtians themselves (10 years in baptist education). I was always taught that we either go to heaven or hell. So sorry, I'm only basing my questions on what other xtains have said. In light of this, if I've only ever been taught that it's heaven or hell, would the question of who goes to which be quite valid?

We will either go to heaven or hell; the Lord will save Christians who follow him in love, faith, & hope (1 Corinthians 13:13) & others that He knows (but we cannot presume to know) within the Beatitudes etc. (so there is a good probability that Ghandi is, or will be, in heaven but I cannot persume to say that is so) this must be one reason why Christ calls us to witness His word in some way or another. We can never be assured or justified in our works but we live our salvation (to sanctification) in good works (see Ephesians 2:8-10). The martyred Lutheran priest (opponent of Hitler in WW II) Dietrich Bonhoeffer preached how justification and sanctification work, "Justification is the new creation of the new man and sanctification his preservation until the day of Jesus Christ." (Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship from chptr 31, The Saints).