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Why do Christians worship their God?
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I can see you believe that. Im asking for some clarification on when you think it does these things. Please try to answer the questions in the final paragraph of my previous post.
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bsd31
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Doesn't the One who creates something have a right to destroy it or kill it? Doesn't the owner of something have the right to destroy or kill it? Doesn't an earthly king have absolute authority holding the very lives of his subjects in his hands? Then how much more authority would the creator of life itself have over our lives?
Number one no one is innocent. No matter how young or old they are. We're all steeped in sin, born into rebellion against God. So forget this notion you have about innocence. It doesn't exist.
Number two as far having no objection I've never said that and I don't believe anyone else has either. Of course we have objections when a child dies, but we also recognize the sovereign authority of God over all creation.
Dead in the flesh, absolutely they are. Dead in the spirit, not quite.
God isn't a man that gets bored and starts killing. There's purpose and plan to all of our lives. Including our deaths. That's far from the wanton killing you're trying to say happens. God doesn't kill whenever He feels like it. We're all predestined to die at some point.
Hell.
That's true death. Physical death is meaningless in comparison. Deuteronomy 30:19 says
God isn't pleading with His people to choose life so that they never die a physical death, but He's instructing them to choose spiritual life which continues on forever.
Matthew 10:29 should answer that question for you -
Deuteronomy 32:39 further clarifies -
So in simple terms, yes. God today still has complete and sovereign authority over every moment of our lives.
See my response above. Nothing dies except by the will of God. I don't pretend to understand how or why I just recognize His authority and sovereign right to do what He does.
Yes it is God who kills them.
God is 100% responsible for giving life, and 100% responsible for putting to death.
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drich0150
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The answer is there, but it doesnot to fit you philosophy of life, so it will remain unseen by you or anyone else who does not know God.
In such Ways God hides His nature from the self seeking.
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I hear what you are saying about admiring people who use sound reasoning or judgment. However, this thought limits one to admiring those who exist in a flawed earthly realm. It is easy to admire someone whom you may think you know much about. But still, this is an act of faith since you have not seen all of the unsound or unreasonable judgments that they have made throughout their lives. You cannot read their hearts or minds, so you can never really know what their true intentions are even when they seem sound or reasonable.
About himself, God says this:
Psalm 2:1
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed
In another version, it reads so -
1Why are the nations so violently moved, and why are the thoughts of the people so foolish? 2The kings of the earth have taken their place, and the rulers are fixed in their purpose, against the Lord, and against the king of his selection,
Here God reminds us that his wisdom far exceeds that of mankind.
"The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men" (I Corinthians 1:25)
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55: 8 &9)
Psalms 145:17 tells us: "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works."
It takes faith for someone to believe that all of God's ways are right, just and best. You have some faith in the sound reasoning and judgment of those you admire. But it takes much more faith than that to believe that God does all things well, especially when we don't always understand all of his peculiar acts.
When we see an abandoned baby, we may say "who was the horrible mother that did this?" But that's because we don't have all the facts. Perhaps she was a drug addict who couldn't handle the pressure and hoped that someone else could give her child a better life than she ever could.
God has all the facts. He sees and knows it all from yesterday, right now and right into tomorrow. So he is the only one who can make right decisions all the time, regardless of what we can see with our finite human eye.
Until you can believe this by faith, you may never have an answer to satisfy you. His words as quoted here have spoken directly to you, and you must decide today what you will do with them.
P.S. - As a Christian who listens to the Holy Spirit of God speaking to me, I do have two way conversations with God. A while before I typed this I asked him to give me words to speak to you. This is what he gave me. Therefore, I will leave it at that.
About himself, God says this:
Psalm 2:1
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed
In another version, it reads so -
1Why are the nations so violently moved, and why are the thoughts of the people so foolish? 2The kings of the earth have taken their place, and the rulers are fixed in their purpose, against the Lord, and against the king of his selection,
Here God reminds us that his wisdom far exceeds that of mankind.
"The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men" (I Corinthians 1:25)
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55: 8 &9)
Psalms 145:17 tells us: "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works."
It takes faith for someone to believe that all of God's ways are right, just and best. You have some faith in the sound reasoning and judgment of those you admire. But it takes much more faith than that to believe that God does all things well, especially when we don't always understand all of his peculiar acts.
When we see an abandoned baby, we may say "who was the horrible mother that did this?" But that's because we don't have all the facts. Perhaps she was a drug addict who couldn't handle the pressure and hoped that someone else could give her child a better life than she ever could.
God has all the facts. He sees and knows it all from yesterday, right now and right into tomorrow. So he is the only one who can make right decisions all the time, regardless of what we can see with our finite human eye.
Until you can believe this by faith, you may never have an answer to satisfy you. His words as quoted here have spoken directly to you, and you must decide today what you will do with them.
P.S. - As a Christian who listens to the Holy Spirit of God speaking to me, I do have two way conversations with God. A while before I typed this I asked him to give me words to speak to you. This is what he gave me. Therefore, I will leave it at that.
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bsd31
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3sigma,
You're not "exploring Christianity" you're here to attack it, ourselves, and God. That's pretty clear from reading your venomous responses to anything anyone says.
http://www.christianforums.com/users/210248/
You're not "exploring Christianity" you're here to attack it, ourselves, and God. That's pretty clear from reading your venomous responses to anything anyone says.
http://www.christianforums.com/users/210248/
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On the contrary, I am here to explore Christianity, which is conformance to and the practice of the Christian religion. Im not attacking your God. I dont even think it is real. Im asking questions about those aspects of the Christian faith that I find difficult to understand or accept. For example, why anyone would believe something for which there is no sound evidence and why people would worship something they know kills people for no discernable reason, as you said yourself.
You also said this:
How can you know there is a purpose and plan? You said you dont understand why your God kills people so how can you possibly know it isnt just doing it whenever it feels like it? Is there anything in scripture that says how your God decides when to kill people? And dont tell me its when it thinks they are evil and wicked because youve already said that includes everyone from when they were born.
So if everyone is evil and wicked from when they were born, how does your God decide when to kill them?
When people make vague, ridiculous or unproven statements, Im going to challenge them to clarify those statements. For example, you said this:
If you object to your God killing children then why do you worship it when it does so? Is it simply out of abject fear and servitude to this thing you think has absolute power over you?
Prove it. Please prove beyond reasonable doubt that this is the truth. Begin by describing this spirit and proving that it is real. Then prove that it exists after someone is dead.
You are stating these things as facts so please prove beyond reasonable doubt that any of that is the truth. Begin by proving beyond reasonable doubt that this God of yours is even real. Then prove that each of your statements is the truth.
If you cant prove that any of these things is the truth or even that your God is real then why on Earth should you or anyone else believe in such a thing or worship it?
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Show me thats the truth. Please prove beyond reasonable doubt that your God is even real, let alone a person. If you think it is a person then please tell me, is it male or female? What is its ethnic origin? How tall is it? How much does it weigh? What colour are its eyes, its skin and its hair? Have you ever actually met this God of yours or even seen a photo of it?
If your God is actually real then surely you could answer some of these questions. Are you going to answer any of these questions or simply evade them the way you evaded all the questions in my previous post? Why do Christians behave so evasively when asked to justify their beliefs? Surely if your beliefs are the truth, you should be able to show that they are well founded. Can you do that?
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Christian beliefs are well founded because they are based upon what God himself teaches in the Bible: "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 3:15-4:4).
Faith in what the Bible teaches can come only by a miraculous gift from God: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). "Ye believed, even as the Lord gave" (1 Corinthians 3:5). "Therefore said I [Jesus] unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father" (John 6:65).
God has purposely made it so that Christians can never intellectually "prove" to an unbeliever that what the Bible teaches is true: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
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For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
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And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
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But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16).
The only thing that Christians can do is share with unbelievers what God himself says in the Bible, and then pray that God will give the unbelievers faith as they read (or hear) what God says in the Bible: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Timothy 2:25-26).
Unbelievers have a better chance of escaping the clutches of the devil, and receiving God's gift of faith, if they consciously humble themselves and read the Bible with an open mind, and don't harden their hearts against God when they hear what he says in the Bible: "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Hebrews 3:15). "Verily I [Jesus] say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3-4). "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:6-11).
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Well-founded means based on excellent reasoning, information, judgment or grounds so lets see how your beliefs measure up.
You stated these things as facts. Prove them. Please prove beyond reasonable doubt that either of those statements is the truth. First, you need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your God is even real. Then prove that scripture was inspired by your God and that faith is a miraculous gift (rather than simple credulity).
Well, if one can never intellectually prove that your beliefs are true then you are declaring that they arent based on excellent reasoning, information, judgment or grounds because, if they were, you would be able to intellectually prove them. In other words, they are not well-founded at all.
Can you show me that your beliefs are the truth? If not then why should anyone believe them?
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If what you say is sound then of course I will make an effort to follow your suggestion. Take note, however, that what you say must be sound. It must be free from error, fallacy or misapprehension. It must be logically valid and have true premises. You will need to demonstrate that whatever suggestions you make are the truth. If all you are going to suggest is that I read and credulously believe a compilation of mainly unverified stories written mostly by unknown authors or that I credulously believe some other patent nonsense then you may as well not bother making your suggestions.
If what you say is not sound then I will take this as yet another transparent attempt to evade my questions, which you continue to do. So while you are making your suggestion, please also take the time to prove that there is any truth to your religious beliefs.
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bsd31
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So my guess is that for the purpose of Christianity the ONLY type of evidence you believe acceptable is going to be statistical and possibly analogical evidence?
I don't picture you as the type who puts any stock in testimonial or anecdotal evidence. At least not when it comes to something as important as your eternity.
Before you asked how big God is. Actually you asked how tall and how much He weighs. The answer is fairly simple.
First how large is the universe? No I don't expect you to be able to answer that question, but know this God can measure the universe by the span of his hand. A span for those who don't know is measured from the tip of the pinky to the tip of the thumb.
Next how much water is on all the earth in any form? According to wikipedia the mass of the hydrosphere is approximately 1,400,000,000,000,000,000 metric tons. God can hold all of it in the cup of one hand.
Next how much does the earth itself weight? 6 septillion pounds according to three different sources I referenced. God can put all the dust of the earth into a basket and carry it.
That should give you an idea of how large God is. He measures the universe by the span of His hand. He can fit all of the hydrosphere of the earth into one cupped hand. He can carry all the dust of the earth in a basket.
In a word, God is large.
You asked if God is male or female. God is spirit so God has no gender as far as genetillia goes. God however is male. He is a Father. Fathers can not under any circumstances be females, just as mothers can never ever be males. But remember when we assign God a gender it's in the role He fills, not in terms of physical parts.
You asked what color His eyes are. They are like blazing fire, or flaming torches is you prefer.
You asked what color His hair is. It is white, pure white. Whiter than wool or even the purest snow. And no it isn't to due with Him being an old man on a cloud. It represents His purity and holiness.
You asked what color His skin is. That too is white. Pure white. And before someone gets bent out of shape about this being a white race conspiracy remember that all the men and women who wrote the Bible were middle easterners. They themselves weren't lacking in pigment.
And yes I've met this God of mine. If I hadn't do you think I'd spend my time explaining Him to people.
Now I have a few questions for you.
How exactly do you explain 6 million muslims converting to Christianity each year? I'm not talking about westernized muslims but muslims who face being put to death for converting to Christianity.
How exactly do you explain 3,000 people daily converting to Christianity in China? Again, not a friendly place that is all inclusive when it comes to any faith and there is great persecution in China against Christians.
If there's nothing to God, nothing to Christianity what possible reason could there be to cause mass numbers of people to convert for no good reason?
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Christians can rest assured that their beliefs are based on excellent reasoning: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool" (Isaiah 1:18). "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28). "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25).
Christians can rest assured that their beliefs are based on excellent information: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine" (2 Timothy 3:16).
Christians can rest assured that their beliefs are based on excellent judgment: "our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he" (Deuteronomy 32:3-4).
Christians can rest assured that their beliefs are based on excellent grounds: "the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).
Christians can rest assured that God is real: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead" (Romans 1:20). "Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture" (Psalms 100:3). "In him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28). "By him all things consist" (Colossians 1:17).
Christians can rest assured that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16) because that statement by Paul the apostle is part of the scriptures: "even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:15-16).
Christians can rest assured that "Faith in what the Bible teaches can come only by a miraculous gift from God" because that is what the Bible teaches: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). "Ye believed, even as the Lord gave" (1 Corinthians 3:5). "Therefore said I [Jesus] unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father" (John 6:65).
Actually, that is not the case, for if an intellectual discourse regarding the truth of the Bible is completely segregated from God's gift of faith then that discourse will not be based on excellent reasoning, information, judgment or grounds, but only on man's own natural, fallen, sinful, worldly, reasoning, information, judgment and grounds, by which man can never hope to understand the things of God: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Corinthians 1:18-21).
"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Corinthians 2:4-5).
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Corinthians 2:12-13).
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14).
No. Only God can do that by his miraculous gift of faith. If you will read the Bible with humility without hardening your heart against what God says in it, he might grant you the ability to know that it is the truth: "God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:25). "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Hebrews 3:15). "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3-4). "Be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble" (1 Peter 5:5).
What can help us humans to humble ourselves before God is to remember that compared with him we are merely infinitesimal creatures with infinitesimal intellects; even all together we are "less than nothing" compared with him: "All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity" (Isaiah 40:17).
We must be willing to put aside our merely human ways of thinking, and through God's Word the Bible come to know how God himself thinks: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:7-11). "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). "They were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).
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For the purposes of determining whether something is the truth, the only evidence worth considering is sound, objective evidence. Testimonials and anecdotes are far from being sound evidence and they are certainly not objective.
Your profile shows you as being 35, but if you are really 35 then you should be able to do better than to spout baseless assertions and patent nonsense when asked to prove something beyond reasonable doubt. I challenge you to demonstrate that any of that nonsense is the truth. Why waste my time and yours with this ridiculous and worthless tripe?
Now why would you say something like that? You dont really expect any reasonable person to believe that, do you? Why would you use the word met in such a misleading way? You claimed your God is a person so when I asked you if you had ever actually met your God or seen a photo of it, it should have been obvious that I meant as you would meet or see the photo of another person. Yet here you are spouting nonsense about your God not being a person at all, but instead a spirit that is larger than the entire universe. Aside from that, how do you propose demonstrating that your claim to have met your God is the truth?
I really dont understand religious believers. How can you trot out nothing but unsupported, bald assertions and think that they are worth anything at all?
I find it difficult to believe that these figures you have given are true. But in any case, there is a simple and mundane answer to all these questions. I think the most likely and plausible explanation for people converting to Christianity (or any religion, for that matter) is that they are insecure and credulous. I think fear and anxiety are the emotions that drive religious believers to seek the comforting answers that religions provide and credulity is the intellectual deficiency that allows the religious to believe those answers without a scrap of sound, objective evidence to support them.
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Then why should anyone believe them? Faith, in this context, is nothing more than credulity misrepresented as a virtue.
So you are suggesting we put aside reason and logic and simply believe a compilation of nonsense in mainly unverified stories written mostly by unknown authors. In other words, people must be highly credulous to hold your religious beliefs. If no one can demonstrate that your religious beliefs are the truth then why should anyone believe them? Why should anyone worship a God that no one can show is real?
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ephraimanesti
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Ample proof is all around you--there are no opened-eyed sceptics. If i knew nothing else about God, Mother Teresa and her work--and there is no atheistic equivelant--are perfect proof that there IS a loving God and He IS very much alive and well.
Because the contrary--the "world" envisioned by such renouned atheists as Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il, etc.--is too terrible to contemplate.
A BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim
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