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Definition of "design"?

catzrfluffy

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Eye witness testimonies don't make for overly convincing arguments either. Especially when they refer to events that allegedly took place two millennia ago.

Lots of people have claimed to have seen alien spaceships, ghosts, Loch Ness Monster, etc, etc, and that doesn't make them real.
500 at the same time? They became martyrs because of this? People who see those various types of things get lots of revenue and publicity, apostles who claim to have seen the risen Christ get flogged and put to shame and stoned for blasphemy, hardly an incentive.
Btw, you didn't answer my earlier question as to whether you believe in Shiva, Zeus, Odin, Ra, Quetzalcoatl, and/or Apocatequil.
These are mostly personifications of God as created things, which is idolatry, which God forbids, He is not accurately portrayed as a statue or an animal, there is still God, I believe in Him. He's not religion confined, what makes Christianity is that I also believe in the Son He sent, Jesus Christ.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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500 at the same time? They became martyrs because of this? People who see those various types of things get lots of revenue and publicity, apostles who claim to have seen the risen Christ get flogged and put to shame and stoned for blasphemy, hardly an incentive.
These are mostly personifications of God as created things, which is idolatry, which God forbids, He is not accurately portrayed as a statue or an animal, there is still God, I believe in Him. He's not religion confined, what makes Christianity is that I also believe in the Son He sent, Jesus Christ.
Here's the thing about eye witness accounts. They're highly unreliable. When it comes to courtroom evidence, all attorney's will tell you they would rather have DNA than an eye witness testimony.

Are you familiar with the "basketball gorilla study? It is a visual cognition study in which Daniel Simons at the U. of Illinois, has subjects watch a video in which a basketall is passed around. He instructs the subjects to count the number of passes they make with the basketball. After about thirty seconds into the exercise, a person in a gorilla suit walks out and into the middle of those passing the basketball around. Only about fifty percent of the test subjects noticed the gorilla as it walked through!

Add to this that the four gospels were each written 30-60 years after the death of Jesus, and you're bound to have discrepencies (which there are). We don't even know who the actual authors were of the four gospels.

And to answer your question about martydom, yes, people do die for unworthy causes everyday.
Jim Jones: >900
9/11
suicide bombers in Gaza
suicide bombers in London
suicide bombers in Pakistan
Hale Bopp

... you get the idea.
 
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AV1611VET

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And to answer your question about martydom, yes, people do die for unworthy causes everyday.
Jim Jones: >900
9/11
suicide bombers in Gaza
suicide bombers in London
suicide bombers in Pakistan
Hale Bopp

... you get the idea.
Which one of these died a martyr --- knowing it was a lie?
 
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AV1611VET

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All of them. None of them. Don't know. Don't care.
Point is, they all thought it was for the truth and were committed to giving their life for it.
The Gospel writers, for example, did not commit suicide --- they were murdered.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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The Gospel writers, for example, did not commit suicide --- they were murdered.
Who wrote Matthew? When was the author murdered? How was he murdered? Where was he murdered?

Who wrote Mark? When was the author murdered? How was he murdered? Where was he murdered?

Who wrote Luke? When was the author murdered? How was he murdered? Where was he murdered?

Who wrote John? When was the author murdered? How was he murdered? Where was he murdered?
 
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Pete Harcoff

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500 at the same time?

Do you know it was 500? Were people taking attendance? Doing accurate head counts? Heck, look at reporting on crowds of events today (i.e. tea bagger protests). You get numbers all over the map.

This is also the problem given that many of the gospels were written long after they occured. Ever play the telephone game? What might have been an event witnessed by half-a-dozen people (assuming it actually occurred) could easily morph to 500 or more within a few tellings.

They became martyrs because of this? People who see those various types of things get lots of revenue and publicity, apostles who claim to have seen the risen Christ get flogged and put to shame and stoned for blasphemy, hardly an incentive.

Lots of people stand up for things they believe in. Regardless, this is all well after the fact and the exact details can get very muddied by history.

These are mostly personifications of God as created things, which is idolatry, which God forbids, He is not accurately portrayed as a statue or an animal, there is still God, I believe in Him. He's not religion confined, what makes Christianity is that I also believe in the Son He sent, Jesus Christ.

So the answer is no, you don't. Like I said earlier, you have more in common with atheists than I think you realize.
 
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catzrfluffy

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Here's the thing about eye witness accounts. They're highly unreliable. When it comes to courtroom evidence, all attorney's will tell you they would rather have DNA than an eye witness testimony.
Test the Turin Shroud?
Are you familiar with the "basketball gorilla study? It is a visual cognition study in which Daniel Simons at the U. of Illinois, has subjects watch a video in which a basketall is passed around. He instructs the subjects to count the number of passes they make with the basketball. After about thirty seconds into the exercise, a person in a gorilla suit walks out and into the middle of those passing the basketball around. Only about fifty percent of the test subjects noticed the gorilla as it walked through!
That's because they were asked to count the number of passes being made, so they were concentrating hard on something else. How does this relate to more than 500 disciples in a room and Jesus walking in?
Add to this that the four gospels were each written 30-60 years after the death of Jesus, and you're bound to have discrepencies (which there are).
Discrepancies can in fact add validity to an account, as someone in GA once explained to me. If it were carbon-copy the same a jury would be suspicious.
We don't even know who the actual authors were of the four gospels.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
James Patrick Holding: Dates and authorship of the Gospels
Evidence That the Gospels Are Authentic
And to answer your question about martydom, yes, people do die for unworthy causes everyday.
Jim Jones: >900
That was suicide, like Hitler's bunker, not martyrdom.
9/11
suicide bombers in Gaza
suicide bombers in London
suicide bombers in Pakistan
They are more seeking glory, and are agressively dying, not passively, like a berserker warrior or a kamikaze pilot, it's essentially an atrocity, not a martyrdom, whatever label they slap upon it, it's done out of hate, not love. And the young civilian ones in war zones are mostly doing it because their families, who are in poverty, are paid money by the insurgents, and they have no other prospects.
Hale Bopp
The ... comet?
Who wrote Matthew? When was the author murdered? How was he murdered? Where was he murdered?
Matthew the tax collector wrote Matthew, he was martyred, the method isn't known, but it happened in Ethiopia in 90 AD, under Domitian.
Term paper on St. Matthew (One of the Twelve Apostles)
St. Matthew - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online
St. Matthew
Who wrote Mark? When was the author murdered? How was he murdered? Where was he murdered?
Mark, a member of the early church, the son of Peter's friend Mary, wrote Mark, he died while being dragged through the streets of Alexandria, later than 62 AD.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Saint Mark
Mark the Evangelist
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gospel of Mark
Who wrote Luke? When was the author murdered? How was he murdered? Where was he murdered?
Luke the physician wrote Luke, he was hanged in Boeotia at age 74.
http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/saint-luke.htm
Saint Luke
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gospel of Saint Luke
Who wrote John? When was the author murdered? How was he murdered? Where was he murdered?
John the apostle, the "disciple whom Jesus loved" wrote John, he died a natural death in Ephesus at a great age in about 100 AD.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. John the Evangelist
St John The Evangelist
St. John, Apostle and Evangelist
Do you know it was 500? Were people taking attendance? Doing accurate head counts? Heck, look at reporting on crowds of events today (i.e. tea bagger protests). You get numbers all over the map.
It just says "more than 500 of the brothers at the same time" 1 Corinthians 15:6.
This is also the problem given that many of the gospels were written long after they occured. Ever play the telephone game? What might have been an event witnessed by half-a-dozen people (assuming it actually occurred) could easily morph to 500 or more within a few tellings.
The gospel preached by all the apostles was described as this:
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." 1 Corinthians 15:3-8
Lots of people stand up for things they believe in. Regardless, this is all well after the fact and the exact details can get very muddied by history.
Ah, it is not so easy to dismiss the gospels, if you really want to know if they're historically accurate take the gospel of Luke - called 'the historical gospel' - as many have done, and try to disprove it.
So the answer is no, you don't. Like I said earlier, you have more in common with atheists than I think you realize.
Yes, I know the quote, just I can't compare the God to the ones dividing Him up into many small pieces. But there is still a universal God who's the same in many religions.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Not sure what you mean by "Test the Turin Shroud," but it was debunked quite a while ago.

The gospels are titled "The Gospel According To Matthew, Luke, Mark and John" for a reason. This is because they are generally attributed to these men, but nowhere in the gospels is it ever written that actually authored them. There are no existing autographs of M,M,L&J. They were originally written 30-60 years after the death of Jesus, and no one knows who the original authors were.

Sorry, differing accounts do not in any way add credence to an eyewitness account. Differences are allowed for perspective only, not for actual facts. For example: Eye witness one says, "I saw the man running up the street wearing a green shirt." Eye witness two says, " I saw the man running down the street wearing a red shirt."

Pespective with respect to where the observer was at the time of the event. Fact with respect to actual color of shirt. See the difference?

Wasn't it the Heaven's Gate cult that thought the Hale Bopp was the mother ship or something? Meh.
 
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catzrfluffy

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Not sure what you mean by "Test the Turin Shroud," but it was debunked quite a while ago.
Not really, Shroud of Turin Story Guide to the Facts 2009, and I wrote it as a joke because someone seemed to be demanding DNA evidence.
The gospels are titled "The Gospel According To Matthew, Luke, Mark and John" for a reason. This is because they are generally attributed to these men, but nowhere in the gospels is it ever written that actually authored them.
"This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down.We know that his testimony is true." (John 21:24) - Referring to the disciple mentioned throughout as the "disciple Jesus loved" who by process of elimination is the only apostle not named, John.
The other authors were known by the early church, and were correctly attributed to them.
There are no existing autographs of M,M,L&J. They were originally written 30-60 years after the death of Jesus, and no one knows who the original authors were.
Being written afterwards doesn't make them flagrantly inaccurate, if things of such a miraculous nature happened to anyone, they would clearly remember it, even 30-60 years later, also they had things recalled to mind by the Holy Spirit. The early church knew who the authors were.
Myriads of copies were made so they could be passed around the churches, the oldest manuscript of a gospel found is the Rylands papyrus, a piece of the gospel of John, dated at 125 AD, only 25 years after John died.
Sorry, differing accounts do not in any way add credence to an eyewitness account. Differences are allowed for perspective only, not for actual facts. For example: Eye witness one says, "I saw the man running up the street wearing a green shirt." Eye witness two says, " I saw the man running down the street wearing a red shirt." Pespective with respect to where the observer was at the time of the event. Fact with respect to actual color of shirt. See the difference?
The gospels are in general agreement with each other, the differences are due to perspective, yes. The facts in them are basically the same. You have explained it well.

On historical accuracy in the gospels:
Does the New Testament provide a reliable history of Christ's life? - ChristianAnswers.Net
Archaeology and the Bible - Christian Answers
Books of the Bible - History of the Bible - Who wrote the Bible
The Historical Reliability of the Gospels | Bible.org | Home of NET Bible on-line, Bible Study tools, Free Bible
 
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Pete Harcoff

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It just says "more than 500 of the brothers at the same time" 1 Corinthians 15:6.

The gospel preached by all the apostles was described as this:
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." 1 Corinthians 15:3-8

Those are all just words in a book. Very uncompelling for the reasons I've already listed.

Ah, it is not so easy to dismiss the gospels, if you really want to know if they're historically accurate take the gospel of Luke - called 'the historical gospel' - as many have done, and try to disprove it.

Disproving something only makes sense if one accepts it as factual in the first place. As I don't assume it's factual, therefore I have no interest in disproving it.

But there is still a universal God who's the same in many religions.

And you know this how exactly?
 
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AV1611VET

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DrkSdBls

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Same in the fact that they are both willing to die for their 'cause.'

You are master of distraction.

To be technical, Martyrs aren't considered Martyrs unless they die at the hands of the enemy in the name of their Cause. One is a Martyr if their Death enrages or inspires others to take up the fight.

True Martyrs were Joan of Arc and Dr Martin Luther King.

So, Suicide Bombers don't count And Hale Bop and Other cult Extremists effectly detroyed their own Movement so they're certainly not Martyrs.

A Martyr can be a Zealet but being a Zealot does not make one a Martyr.
 
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Thistlethorn

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To be technical, Martyrs aren't considered Martyrs unless they die at the hands of the enemy in the name of their Cause. One is a Martyr if their Death enrages or inspires others to take up the fight.

True Martyrs were Joan of Arc and Dr Martin Luther King.

So, Suicide Bombers don't count And Hale Bop and Other cult Extremists effectly detroyed their own Movement so they're certainly not Martyrs.

A Martyr can be a Zealet but being a Zealot does not make one a Martyr.

The suicide bombers and most of the Muslim world disagrees with you.
 
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