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Definition of "design"?

A

Alunyel

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What does that mean, "look beyond the corporeal"? How does one actually do that?

You go down to your local church and buy a sparkly new pair of Jesus goggles* for £7.99.

Once you put them on, the "incorporeal" is all you can see, so much so that the real world can "take a hike.".

*really just kaleidoscopes.
 
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catzrfluffy

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Yes, exactly, a god for that which is unknown. I think maybe you're starting to understand. There are those who "plug in" to their own personal beliefs as an attempt to assuage fears and doubts of the unknown (as evidenced by all myths/religions having explanations for the afterlife!).

As mentioned earlier, it takes much courage to declare, "I don't know."
But couldn't it be a hidden "I don't want to know" as in, fear?
One can be arrogant in claiming that they know which religion is the truth while all others are false.
Jesus claimed to be that religion. Arrogance is despising others, I don't despise them, I just believe that what Jesus said was true.
Does it take courage to believe in Santa Claus?
An Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient God isn't comparable to Santa Claus, the FSM, the IPU or anything else not Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Sorry, but I surmise that perhaps this is what most atheists do just to trivialize the concept of God so they can easily dismiss him. Anyone who does this has clearly not understood the concept of God beyond that portrayed in a cartoon. Perhaps they should think a bit more deeply on such things. If indeed they want to. Nothing personal, just this terminology is everywhere.
What does that mean, "look beyond the corporeal"? How does one actually do that?
As in look beyond created things and acknowledge the Creator, who has expressed Himself through them.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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But couldn't it be a hidden "I don't want to know" as in, fear?

Jesus claimed to be that religion. Arrogance is despising others, I don't despise them, I just believe that what Jesus said was true.

An Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient God isn't comparable to Santa Claus, the FSM, the IPU or anything else not Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Sorry, but I surmise that perhaps this is what most atheists do just to trivialize the concept of God so they can easily dismiss him. Anyone who does this has clearly not understood the concept of God beyond that portrayed in a cartoon. Perhaps they should think a bit more deeply on such things. If indeed they want to. Nothing personal, just this terminology is everywhere.

As in look beyond created things and acknowledge the Creator, who has expressed Himself through them.
You shouldn't assume that agnostics/atheists haven't examined the "concept" of god. Agnoticism/atheism is often a result of having examined the "concept" of god, and was found to be lacking, or unsupportable.

Yes, the IPU, FSM and Thor are often brought up to make that point that there is no more "evidence" to support the god of the bible than there is to support any alternative. Just because a certain god has been worshipped for four thousand years, and hundreds of religions and sects have devoloped over this time, does not make something so. It is belief, not evidence, that they have hope in, nothing more.

Allah also made claims that billions of people hold to be true, but I'm willing to bet that you have your own personal reason for not believing in Islam.
 
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MoonLancer

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An Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient God isn't comparable to Santa Claus,

really? Can i kill Santa? I knows if hi have been bad or good, and he can deliver all presents all over the world in one night and manage time zones. Seems to fit the bill.

the FSM, the IPU or anything else [is] not Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient.
Really all one has do is claim they are and it is so. You have as much luck disproving that as you would god. The reason is the idea of god that's commonly used is unfalsifiable and thus equal to claims like fairies and boogie men. When you use the word "spiritual" your really say that i should believe some effect or cause that that cannot be perceived or reproduced or measured. In other words it might as well not exist.

Sorry, but I surmise that perhaps this is what most atheists do just to trivialize the concept of God so they can easily dismiss him.
the bible does that already. Look at how different god is from the ot to the new testemate. in the ot he is quite human in his actions. he hates, gets anger, kills, is vengeful etc... where in the nt he is a perfect transcendent being.
Anyone who does this has clearly not understood the concept of God beyond that portrayed in a cartoon.
read the bible. really read it. I think gorge Carlin said it best and i will let his words to the talking at this point. Its too easy.

As in look beyond created things and acknowledge the Creator, who has expressed Himself through them.
I can look at things as much as i want. I can keep telling myself over and over that its god. someday i may even believe that, but i could do that with anything and convince myself. I could say that the world was created by faeries and as a human if i told myself this day in and day out, devoted a day to pray to these faeries etc... i would believe it as would most people.

we see what we want to see. and that is where the idea of unfalsifiable is so important. unfalsifiable claims like god are meaningless when trying to discern reality from fiction
 
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Meshach

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An Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient God isn't comparable to Santa Claus, the FSM, the IPU or anything else not Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Sorry, but I surmise that perhaps this is what most atheists do just to trivialize the concept of God so they can easily dismiss him. Anyone who does this has clearly not understood the concept of God beyond that portrayed in a cartoon. Perhaps they should think a bit more deeply on such things. If indeed they want to. Nothing personal, just this terminology is everywhere.

As in look beyond created things and acknowledge the Creator, who has expressed Himself through them.


Amen catzrfluffy.:thumbsup: Comparing santa clause or any fictional character to God is common for them. Thats their choice until repentance or Philippians 2:9-11. Whichever comes first.

But dont dare say anything contrary to what they believe.
 
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MoonLancer

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Amen catzrfluffy.:thumbsup: Comparing santa clause or any fictional character to God is common for them. Thats their choice until repentance or Philippians 2:9-11. Whichever comes first.



comparing god to other fictional characters is quite easy. thy both roughly have the same evidence in their favor.

No remember Timmy, in order to get presents you have to die first and believe Santa exists when you where alive. if you don't he will send you coal. Why? just because he can. He gets angry when you don't believe he exists on faith alone.

But don't dare say anything contrary to what they believe.
actually i don't mind. I would like it even better if you find a way to make god unfalsifiable setting him aside form that whole pile of stuff that can never be falsified
 
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Meshach

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comparing god to other fictional characters is quite easy. thy both roughly have the same evidence in their favor.

No remember Timmy, in order to get presents you have to die first and believe Santa exists when you where alive. if you don't he will send you coal. Why? just because he can. He gets angry when you don't believe he exists on faith alone.


Has santa changed millions of lives for the better for thousands of years? Has santa inspired some of the most beautiful and powerful songs(millions) known to man, if you walk in the spirit? Has santa inspired powerful, ground shaking and life altering messages from the pulpit week AFTER WEEK? Does santa draw you into his precence with such an overwhelming peace when worshiping him? Has santa inspired literally shelves upon shelves of books about him and his word? Does santa have a word? Does santa grant you an inexpressable joy ALL year round? Is there a book on santa that will stand FOREVER, regardless if you accept it or not? Are there noted miracles performed because of santa? Was santa seen walking on water? Does santa offer the gift of salvation? Does santa make the calim that he created everything. Did santa die for you?
 
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Pete Harcoff

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As in look beyond created things and acknowledge the Creator, who has expressed Himself through them.

That's pretty vague. Care to go into more detail?

An Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient God isn't comparable to Santa Claus, the FSM, the IPU or anything else not Immortal, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Sorry, but I surmise that perhaps this is what most atheists do just to trivialize the concept of God so they can easily dismiss him. Anyone who does this has clearly not understood the concept of God beyond that portrayed in a cartoon. Perhaps they should think a bit more deeply on such things. If indeed they want to. Nothing personal, just this terminology is everywhere.

Do you believe in Shiva, Zeus, Odin, Ra, Quetzalcoatl, or Apocatequil?

Because if the answer to any of the above is "no", then you have more in common with atheists than you probably realize.
 
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MoonLancer

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Has santa changed millions of lives for the better for thousands of years?
you know, I think i would believe in god if he would pay my bills. Really if you can document god doing anything within a thousand years i really would like to hear it. hell lets make it 3000 years.

Has santa inspired some of the most beautiful and powerful songs(millions) known to man, if you walk in the spirit?
I think sex inspired more hands down. also what are you trying to say about Christmas songs?
Has santa inspired powerful, ground shaking and life altering messages from the pulpit week AFTER WEEK?
I dont go to church very often but when i do i wish i had a gun so i could shoot myself.
Does santa draw you into his precence with such an overwhelming peace when worshiping him?
Christains are very good at architecture. I like Gothic cathedrals. I get chills when i am in them. But that's art/architecture at work. I dont get that feeling in boring churches. Sometimes i get a stuffy feeling. If people expect to feel god in church they will. The effect is profound but such effects can be achieved in sugar pills.

Has santa inspired literally shelves upon shelves of books about him and his word?
yes and do movies count?

Does santa have a word? Does santa grant you an inexpressable joy ALL year round?
depends are we talking about elves or humans?
Is there a book on Santa that will stand FOREVER, regardless if you accept it or not?
nope. but immortal books exist. and the bible is not the only one. So whats your claim? that becuse the bible survived as a book it shows gods existence? does that mean Beowulf exists? Or that Gilgimesh exists?

Are there noted miracles performed because of santa?
Of course. he can transform time and space, he doesn't burn, and he knows when you are naughty and nice.
Did santa die for you?
Why is it important that god kills himself? He could have simply forgiven mankind at Eden if he was all loving. And why did god have to die? Its quite theatrical but god makes the rules right? so god could have easily preformed a gesture that did not involve sacrificing his son who was also somehow himself... yeah that's another odd problem anyway...

Jesus as a man moves my heart. Jesus as a god makes me want to vomit.

Do not be mistaken NONE of these challenge my assertion that god is an unfalsifiable idea and thus equal to fairies, the boggy man, ufo's and santa.

we can play my fictional character is better then your fictional character all day, but that doesn't make your fictional character real.

you have simply tried to show how Santa is a better fictional character then Santa which i would admit to. You have not passed the threshold of reality though. Most of your list can be rebutted because you are really talking about the IDEA of god, not god. ps is Criss Angel akin to Jesus as he can walk on water.
 
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MoonLancer

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I mostly had fun with your post but your folly is that Ideas inspire people and the idea of god has inspired many but the idea that god exists and can be proven is wrong. he is unfalsifiable. Which for all intensive purpuses makes him fiction for the time being. God could still exist, but then again so could the boggy man and so could fairies.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Amen catzrfluffy.:thumbsup: Comparing santa clause or any fictional character to God is common for them. Thats their choice until repentance or Philippians 2:9-11. Whichever comes first.

But dont dare say anything contrary to what they believe.
Feel free to say whatever you want. Your statements will stand or fall based on veracity. If you ever espouse bullpoop, don't surprise when someone points it out.

BTW, there are alot of similarities between SC and JC when you think about it.

Both were presumably real people who lived in the past. Both did some good things while they were alive. After their deaths, legend and myth began to grown into godlike descriptions. ^_^

Nathan, if you're reading this, maybe you could comment.
 
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laconicstudent

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Amen catzrfluffy.:thumbsup: Comparing santa clause or any fictional character to God is common for them.

Because they have an equal quantity of empirical evidence of ever existing.

Thats their choice until repentance or Philippians 2:9-11. Whichever comes first.

Yes... bask in your own righteous superiority. We all disagree with you on the subject of the world's origins, therefore we are filthy heathens... Continue imaging those silly evolutionists burning in Hell fire, things like this make you look really Christ-like.




comparing god to other fictional characters is quite easy. thy both roughly have the same evidence in their favor.

No remember Timmy, in order to get presents you have to die first and believe Santa exists when you where alive. if you don't he will send you coal. Why? just because he can. He gets angry when you don't believe he exists on faith alone.


Has santa changed millions of lives for the better for thousands of years? Has santa inspired some of the most beautiful and powerful songs(millions) known to man, if you walk in the spirit? Has santa inspired powerful, ground shaking and life altering messages from the pulpit week AFTER WEEK? Does santa draw you into his precence with such an overwhelming peace when worshiping him? Has santa inspired literally shelves upon shelves of books about him and his word? Does santa have a word? Does santa grant you an inexpressable joy ALL year round? Is there a book on santa that will stand FOREVER, regardless if you accept it or not? Are there noted miracles performed because of santa? Was santa seen walking on water? Does santa offer the gift of salvation? Does santa make the calim that he created everything. Did santa die for you?

And this has what to do with the fact that we are comparing them on the basis of being historical figures?

I hate to break it to you, but Mohammed also changed millions of lives for the better, he united the middle east into a Caliphate that lasted centuries and ascended to become one of the most culturally and technologically advanced cultures for its time.


I think you are funny. Notice all you can do is sidetrack us to the issue of whether or not God exists. You seem to have a hard time addressing the voluminous evidence supporting evolutionary theory.
 
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Meshach

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laconicstudent
Because they have an equal quantity of empirical evidence of ever existing
.

All you need is faith, for without it its IMPOSSIBLE to please God.
[bible]1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: [/bible]
The joy I experience is truly unspeakable, just like it says. Weird huh?

laconicstudent said
Yes... bask in your own righteous superiority. We all disagree with you on the subject of the world's origins, therefore we are filthy heathens... Continue imaging those silly evolutionists burning in Hell fire, things like this make you look really Christ-like.

You disagree that "in the beggining God created"? A number of verses come to mind when I read your posts as well as great pride and arrogance and a total lack of the fruit of the Spirit. If you really are a Christian? Heres one.[bible]John 12:43 "For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."[/bible]
Its no wonder you misunderstand the Bible. If you read it? For you put words in my mouth that I never spoke. In EVERY reply you have made to me. I have NEVER imagined ANYONE in Hell, for when I consider the WORST part of it,(Hell that is) I would not wish it on my worst enemy. The worst part being the absence of God. And anyone going there is not the fault of mine or God's, thats their own doing. God provided the way out. John 3:16

laconicstudent
No, we just ask you not to inflict us with such deliberate stupidity.

Is it stupidity or maybe foolishness I speak? Psalm 14:1 and 1 Corinthians 1:18
Your right , why try to explain the spiritual to the unspiritual?
[bible]
1 Corinthians 2;13-14
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[/bible]
My , is that you spoken of again in the bible?

laconicstudent
And this has what to do with the fact that we are comparing them on the basis of being historical figures?

St. Nick or santa?

laconicstudent
I hate to break it to you, but Mohammed also changed millions of lives for the better, he united the middle east into a Caliphate that lasted centuries and ascended to become one of the most culturally and technologically advanced cultures for its time.
Mohammed is dead, Jesus is alive.

laconicstudent
I think you are funny. Notice all you can do is sidetrack us to the issue of whether or not God exists. You seem to have a hard time addressing the voluminous evidence supporting evolutionary theory.
[/quote]

Again , puting your words in my mouth. If God's process of creation is what you call evolution (Though I HIGHLY DOUBT macro)then I have no problem with that. The fact is I KNOW GOD EXISTS, I will live and die with that belief and NO ONE and nothing can take that away.

[bible]
Rom. 8:38,39
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
[/bible]

Notice the word "convinced"?
 
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laconicstudent

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All you need is faith, for without it its IMPOSSIBLE to please God.
[bible]1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: [/bible]
The joy I experience is truly unspeakable, just like it says. Weird huh?

And this has what to do with the scientific basis for your argument?


.
You disagree that "in the beggining God created"?

I think its metaphorical.

.
A number of verses come to mind when I read your posts as well as great pride and arrogance and a total lack of the fruit of the Spirit.

The graciousness and Christian love you show truly vindicates me. You know, you'd probably do a lot better and be somewhat more respected if you refrained from being so unbelievably rude.

.
If you really are a Christian? Heres one.[bible]John 12:43 "For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."[/bible]
Its no wonder you misunderstand the Bible. If you read it? For you put words in my mouth that I never spoke. In EVERY reply you have made to me. I have NEVER imagined ANYONE in Hell, for when I consider the WORST part of it,(Hell that is) I would not wish it on my worst enemy. The worst part being the absence of God. And anyone going there is not the fault of mine or God's, thats their own doing. God provided the way out. John 3:16

Once again, your arguments would bear more wait if you they had more content and less asinine insults.

.
My , is that you spoken of again in the bible?

I don't believe so. Excuse me, but I believe the Bible also states that you shall be judged as you judge others. I would ask you to be more civil, and find a basis for your argument beyond insulting my faith



.

Mohammed is dead, Jesus is alive.

My point is that there is no scientific proof of that fact. That's why Christianity is referred to as a "faith"

.
Again , puting your words in my mouth. If God's process of creation is what you call evolution (Though I HIGHLY DOUBT macro)then I have no problem with that. The fact is I KNOW GOD EXISTS, I will live and die with that belief and NO ONE and nothing can take that away.

Yes. I agree with that statement. I'm not doubting that God exists. I'm illustrating the futility of trying to use the Bible in a scientific discussion.
 
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MoonLancer

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All you need is faith, for without it its IMPOSSIBLE to please God.
that's really strange. why? why would a omni god care if i believed in god before actually seeing vs after? this is clearly a human construction. A loving god would not be so petty (but humans would).

The joy I experience is truly unspeakable, just like it says. Weird huh?
I know what you mean, when i sword fight and make art its like i am alive. NO really i know exactly how you feel and i don't need god to feel it.
Mohammed is dead, Jesus is alive.
really i want to send him a postcard whats his address? Jesus his dead but his ideas still go on. Is that what you mean? if thats the caswe Mohammad is also alive.

Again , puting your words in my mouth. If God's process of creation is what you call evolution (Though I HIGHLY DOUBT macro)then I have no problem with that. The fact is I KNOW GOD EXISTS, I will live and die with that belief and NO ONE and nothing can take that away.
I dont want to take it from you. But realize the pulpit is the worse place to start most things from, such as science or politics or voting.

I notice your defense is mostly based on how christiany makes you feel. So are you admitting that God is equal to all things unfalsifiable? another poster said it well

"Because they have an equal quantity of empirical evidence of ever existing."
 
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catzrfluffy

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Larger fonts don't make for convincing arguments.
The argument is based on the eye witness accounts contained in the new testament bible, and the prophecies contained in the old testament. All the apostles saw the risen Christ, when they were together and also some of them seperately, and so did more than five hundred of the believers at the same time.
that's really strange. why? why would a omni god care if i believed in god before actually seeing vs after? this is clearly a human construction. A loving god would not be so petty (but humans would).
Without faith we cannot please God, but it doesn't mean He doesn't love you, He wants you to be saved.
I notice your defense is mostly based on how christiany makes you feel. So are you admitting that God is equal to all things unfalsifiable? another poster said it well

"Because they have an equal quantity of empirical evidence of ever existing."
Wait a minute, we know the modern portrayal of Santa Claus came mostly out of Hollywood, and that he was based upon the historical figure of St. Nicholas. God, however, is a timeless concept, common throughout all ages. The way Jesus is portrayed has been the same way He portrayed Himself, and the apostles testified to, since He walked this earth. On the evidence for God, I will know there is no point in wasting further time on those who are willingly ignorant; I leave the last word to God:
"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse. Because, knowing God, they did not glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonoured among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." Romans 1: 18-25
 
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Pete Harcoff

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The argument is based on the eye witness accounts contained in the new testament bible, and the prophecies contained in the old testament. All the apostles saw the risen Christ, when they were together and also some of them seperately, and so did more than five hundred of the believers at the same time.

Eye witness testimonies don't make for overly convincing arguments either. Especially when they refer to events that allegedly took place two millennia ago.

Lots of people have claimed to have seen alien spaceships, ghosts, Loch Ness Monster, etc, etc, and that doesn't make them real.

Btw, you didn't answer my earlier question as to whether you believe in Shiva, Zeus, Odin, Ra, Quetzalcoatl, and/or Apocatequil.
 
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AV1611VET

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Btw, you didn't answer my earlier question as to whether you believe in Shiva, Zeus, Odin, Ra, Quetzalcoatl, and/or Apocatequil.
It must pass two criteria before I will believe it:

  1. The Bible confirms it, or
  2. Science confirms it w/o violating the Prime Directive.*
* Science may not contradict the Bible.
 
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