Is not honoring the sabbath a sin?

[Timothew]

No problem


Sorry, every day may be special as it is a new day which we were not promised, but only one day was made holy.


I see what you're saying, and actually what you've done is give a great example of what it means to not be under the law. This is the thing though, you don't cling to the law to no commit adultery because you fear punishment. The last six laws deal with human relationships which is why it was summed up "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

We still need those laws because it continues to establish what is and isn't a sin. If those laws no longer apply to Christians then it doesn't matter if one cheats on their spouse because there'd be no punishment for it. It would no longer be a sin.


This is the problem, you may want to keep everyday "holy" but you can't do that the same way we are to keep the sabbath holy. We are commanded to do no work on the sabbath day. We are to abstain from doing our own pleasure. Something Holy is something that has been set apart. It is something different. How can Sunday be a holy day when it's treated like every other day?

Going to church doesn't make it special, all you've done is taken your personal worship into a corporate environment.



That "new" commandment seems pretty reminiscent of the command given to the COI in the book of Deuteronomy. Please, so many people continue on about how the law will put you in bondage. Can you answer this question that everyone else simply refuses to...how? How does obedience to the ten commandments place you under bondage?

I don't know how else to explain to you what is the christian relationship to the law, can I appeal to Saint Paul? He wrote (Romans 7:6) that "we have been released from the law." (NASB) That says it right there. You can't tell me "the law says you must keep the sabbath," Paul told me that I have been released from the law. nuff said?

 

[Stryder06]

I don't know how else to explain to you what is the christian relationship to the law, can I appeal to Saint Paul? He wrote (Romans 7:6) that "we have been released from the law." (NASB) That says it right there. You can't tell me "the law says you must keep the sabbath," Paul told me that I have been released from the law. nuff said?

The law also says that "thou shalt not murder". If your understanding of the bible is correct and mine is wrong, then we are free to murder.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. If murder is still unlawful then so is sabbath breaking. If sabbath breaking is lawful than so is murder.

 

[Stryder06]

Well, I have observed that more than likely 'obedience' is more directly correlated to AVOID the penalty of eternal death...rather than the highlighted alternatives above.

Without the FEAR of penalty there is no impetus for overcoming and submissiveness.

Were such things only on the BASIS of learning you'd have a point, but that is obviously NOT the case. So no, the BASIS is not only upon LEARNING whatsoever.

Nice try though!



Well, the formulas are an entirely different matter altogether.

IF there is NO condemnation IN CHRIST, then you are also admitting that where there IS condemnation or the potential of same YOU ARE at that point OUT of Christ and in need of 'reinstatement.' Hence my observation of IN AND OUT of Christ (how perpetually or frequently is irrelevant.)



Look, this is me not buying your story. You have merely put up the ILLUSION of learning DEVOID of the other fact, that being the potential of eternal death, EMPHASIS or not does not matter IF the potential is ALSO therein included.

Focus? lol Kinda hard to ignore the elephant in the room with learning.


So, by belief you ARE always saved and have ZERO chance of the penalty of eternal death? In essence, OSAS?



Nice try again. The potential of eternal death in your view above has not in ANY WAY been removed out of the equations. Sorry.


And, as stated, you DO remain under bondage in your format. There is no avoiding the obvious which you yourself OPENLY state and admit to.

It does not become 'squints personal problem' to VIEW such measures when they come from your own lips btw.

I am merely drawing out the obvious of what you state.

enjoy!

squint

Whatever you say squint.

 

[Hentenza]

The law also says that "thou shalt not murder". If your understanding of the bible is correct and mine is wrong, then we are free to murder.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. If murder is still unlawful then so is sabbath breaking. If sabbath breaking is lawful than so is murder.

How do you figure? Jesus covered the no murder command in the sermon on the mount.

 

[Stryder06]

How do you figure? Jesus covered the no murder command in the sermon on the mount.

And He showed us how to keep the sabbath by His lifestyle.

 

[Hentenza]

And He showed us how to keep the sabbath by His lifestyle.

Actually He challenged it time and time again.

2 Cor 3:3
3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

 

[Timothew]

The law also says that "thou shalt not murder". If your understanding of the bible is correct and mine is wrong, then we are free to murder.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. If murder is still unlawful then so is sabbath breaking. If sabbath breaking is lawful than so is murder.

What is your understanding of Paul's words, "we have been released from the law?"

I'm not having cake or eating cake. The law is irrelevant.
I don't murder, but not because the law says don't murder, but because murder is the complete opposite of love. I keep the sabbath, but not because the law says "keep the sabbath", I entered into Christ's sabbath rest, such as the author of the Book of Hebrews wrote in chapter four. I certainly DO NOT keep the sabbath as you would like me to, but what of that? You ain't my god.

So, what did Paullie mean when he wrote, "We have been released from the law?"

 

[squint]

Whatever you say squint.

We certainly wouldn't want to view your positions too closely now would we?

Warning people to NOT SIN..."to to church on Saturday" according to the SDA.

Of course any sect can take their pet doctrine and justify that approach to justify their positions.

How about this warning?

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF

Love in the SDA = convey sin, condemnation and potential eternal death, to BELIEVERS no less

A really incredible stretch of credibility.

Whatever you say Stryder...as you measure to others [sin, condemnation and potential eternal death] WILL be measured to you in return.

s

 

[Stryder06]

Actually He challenged it time and time again.

2 Cor 3:3
3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

What did He challenge, the way it was suppose to be, or the way the people made it to be? Jesus never broke the sabbath, rather He removed the chains that the religious leaders of that time had attached to it.

 

[Hentenza]

What did He challenge, the way it was suppose to be, or the way the people made it to be? Jesus never broke the sabbath, rather He removed the chains that the religious leaders of that time had attached to it.

The same chains have been attached again. Man can't keep the Sabbath. They couldn't then and they can't now.

Again, we are not bound by tablets of stone but by tablets of flesh.

2 Cor 3:3
3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

 

[Stryder06]

What is your understanding of Paul's words, "we have been released from the law?"

Free from the punishment associated with the law.

I'm not having cake or eating cake. The law is irrelevant.

So if you're married and your wife wants to have an affair you should invite the gentleman over to your house.

I don't murder, but not because the law says don't murder, but because murder is the complete opposite of love.

You're fooling yourself. There is nothing good within you or me or anyone else for that matter. We know love because God is love. It's the love of God that works in us. Our nature strives against the law of God, but His love is what keeps us in line. The only reason you know that murder is the opposite of love is because there is a law that says "thou shalt not murder".

I keep the sabbath, but not because the law says "keep the sabbath", I entered into Christ's sabbath rest, such as the author of the Book of Hebrews wrote in chapter four. I certainly DO NOT keep the sabbath as you would like me to, but what of that? You ain't my god.

First, I don't want you to keep the sabbath my way. I don't keep the sabbath my way. I keep the sabbath the way Christ asked us to. You can say you've entered in to Christ's sabbath rest as much as you want but that has nothing to do with keeping holy the day He made holy.

Because of Christ you don't have to work for salvation. This does not mean you, or me, or anyone else for that matter has a free pass to be disobedient.

So, what did Paullie mean when he wrote, "We have been released from the law?"

Free from it's penalty. You do know that lawlessness = sin right?

 

[Stryder06]

We certainly wouldn't want to view your positions too closely now would we?

Warning people to NOT SIN..."to to church on Saturday" according to the SDA.

Of course any sect can take their pet doctrine and justify that approach to justify their positions.

How about this warning?

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF

Love in the SDA = convey sin, condemnation and potential eternal death, to BELIEVERS no less

A really incredible stretch of credibility.

You know, the more you talk the more you reveal that you don't know as much as you think you do about our denomination. I'll put it to you like this, If my neighbor knew that I was in err I'd want him to set me straight and warn me of the consequences of my actions.

By your logic I can't tell my daughter "don't touch that hot stove" because I'd be condemning her.

Whatever you say Stryder...as you measure to others [sin, condemnation and potential eternal death] WILL be measured to you in return.

s

You're right. So let's see, would God rather we warn our fellow man, like the example of the faithful watchman that the bible gives us, or should we simply say "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR" and assume that any attempt to reprove them is an example of not being loving, so I'll just keep my mouth closed.

You know it's ironic, you do more "condemning" then anyone around here.

 

[squint]

You know, the more you talk the more you reveal that you don't know as much as you think you do about our denomination. I'll put it to you like this, If my neighbor knew that I was in err I'd want him to set me straight and warn me of the consequences of my actions.

Yeah, same thing Stryder. If I see my neighbors condemning other neighbors under the law, I remind them to love their neighbors as themselves and FULFILL THAT and ALL requirements of the Law in the process.

By your logic I can't tell my daughter "don't touch that hot stove" because I'd be condemning her.

Uh, no. You say [your position says] IF you touch the stove God is going to kill you permanently.

You know it's ironic, you do more "condemning" then anyone around here.

You may certainly hear it that way without a doubt. That loving our neighbors as ourselves is about the last thing on the list for legalists. Those who speak that language are considered CONDEMNING...

what twisted logic.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Timothew]

Yeah, same thing Stryder. If I see my neighbors condemning other neighbors under the law, I remind them to love their neighbors as themselves and FULFILL THAT and ALL requirements of the Law in the process.


Uh, no. You say [your position says] IF you touch the stove God is going to kill you permanently.



You may certainly hear it that way without a doubt. That loving our neighbors as ourselves is about the last thing on the list for legalists. Those who speak that language are considered CONDEMNING...

what twisted logic.

enjoy!

squint

If you touch the stove, God is going to KILL YOU!

 

[tall73]

Originally Posted by Timothew

What is your understanding of Paul's words, "we have been released from the law?"
​

Free from the punishment associated with the law.

Doesn't match what it says:

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

We have died to the law, just as the person who dies is released from the law of marriage.

We now belong to another.

We are now joined to Christ rather than the law because Christ allows us to bear fruit.

Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


We were RELEASED from the law, not just the condemnation of it.

We died to it.

Now we live in the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[Timothew]

Originally Posted by Timothew

What is your understanding of Paul's words, "we have been released from the law?"

​

Doesn't match what it says:

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

We have died to the law, just as the person who dies is released from the law of marriage.

We now belong to another.

We are now joined to Christ rather than the law because Christ allows us to bear fruit.

Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


We were RELEASED from the law, not just the condemnation of it.

We died to it.

Now we live in the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Thanks, I wish I could have said it as well.

 

[Stryder06]

If I see my neighbors condemning other neighbors under the law, I remind them to love their neighbors as themselves and FULFILL THAT and ALL requirements of the Law in the process.

The thing is that I haven't stopped loving them. Christ loved the world and died for it, that didn't stop Him from rebuking the Pharisees and warning them of the condemnation they were headed for.

Uh, no. You say [your position says] IF you touch the stove God is going to kill you permanently.

Sin = death. Not my rule, and there's not getting around that. If you willingly disobey/remain ignorant there is no grace to cover you. Key word here is willing.

what twisted logic.

"Kettle you're black!" says the pot.

 

[Stryder06]

Originally Posted by Timothew



Doesn't match what it says:

Actually it does. So am I to take it that you don't keep the sabbath either tall?

We have died to the law, just as the person who dies is released from the law of marriage.

We now belong to another.

We are now joined to Christ rather than the law because Christ allows us to bear fruit.

We were RELEASED from the law, not just the condemnation of it.

We died to it.

Now we live in the Spirit.

Ok, well given your understanding of Paul's writings, if your wife decides to run off with another man you should help her pack her bags and wish her the best. Or if your someone breaks into your house and steals your TV, don't bother calling the police.

If you find your children have decided to follow after another god, don't rebuke them.

Again, either the law is all gone, or it's not. The fact there was a change holds true, but the law itself is not gone.

For you to have gone so deep into Hebrews in the other thread tall, I'm surprised you'd argue against this. Let me ask you something.

We agree that within the MHP there is the ark of the covenant. Why is the mercy seat on top of the ark? If the earthly was patterned after the heavenly, what do you think is inside of the ark?

 

[squint]

The thing is that I haven't stopped loving them.

Yeah, right. The God who LOVES them sooo much that for whatever legal reason He can put upon someone, upon violations HE will kill them permanently. You mean THAT God? lol

Christ loved the world and died for it, that didn't stop Him from rebuking the Pharisees and warning them of the condemnation they were headed for.

Stryder, you know well enough by now that I do not deny any aspect of the FULL applicability of ALL the laws of the O.T. and N.T. (as some blinded grace proponents present.) But you will continually fail to convince me that your own indwelling sin and EVIL PRESENT will ever be 'lawful.'

I do NOT consider YOU as Gods child to be the SAME AS that working. I know that working will continue to seek to CONDEMN and ERADICATE our fellow mankind. This is the 'voice' that is coming from you and as such, your mind remains UNable to love your fellow man UNLESS they are legal in your sole determinations. OTHERWISE they get the eternal death shaft.

Sin = death. Not my rule,

I don't deny that rule either. However to insist that mankind is THE ONLY party to this matter is likewise blinded. No man's EVIL PRESENT and INDWELLING SIN is EVER going to be 'legal' no matter HOW MUCH PAINT you put upon that working....period.

and there's not getting around that. If you willingly disobey/remain ignorant there is no grace to cover you. Key word here is willing.

You cannot WILL yourself free of EVIL PRESENT my friend. Nor can you WILL EVIL PRESENT into a LAWFUL state. It's not possible.

It is even LESS possible for THAT SAME WORKING to love all of our neighbors as ourselves.

Where your mind has landed in these matters is EXACTLY where EVIL PRESENT was meant to 'take you.' Into the condemnation of mankind and the PHARISITICAL EXCUSING of yourself. A very common working in christianity in general.

s

 

[Stryder06]

Yeah, right. The God who LOVES them sooo much that for whatever legal reason He can put upon someone, upon violations HE will kill them permanently. You mean THAT God? lol

Yeah, exactly. That God. Adam and Eve when they were perfect and without sin were still told "The day you eat of it you shall surely die."

Stryder, you know well enough by now that I do not deny any aspect of the FULL applicability of ALL the laws of the O.T. and N.T. (as some blinded grace proponents present.) But you will continually fail to convince me that your own indwelling sin and EVIL PRESENT will ever be 'lawful.'

When did I ever try to say that sin was lawful for me?

I do NOT consider YOU as Gods child to be the SAME AS that working. I know that working will continue to seek to CONDEMN and ERADICATE our fellow mankind. This is the 'voice' that is coming from you and as such, your mind remains UNable to love your fellow man UNLESS they are legal in your sole determinations. OTHERWISE they get the eternal death shaft.

RIGHT ON. DEATH TO ALL HERETICS....wait, yeah I don't remember taking that position either. /shrug

I don't deny that rule either. However to insist that mankind is THE ONLY party to this matter is likewise blinded. No man's EVIL PRESENT and INDWELLING SIN is EVER going to be 'legal' no matter HOW MUCH PAINT you put upon that working....period.

I see it like this, God says that He will finish the work that He started in us. Grace is merited to me on Christ's behalf.

You cannot WILL yourself free of EVIL PRESENT my friend. Nor can you WILL EVIL PRESENT into a LAWFUL state. It's not possible.

Never said I could. I can however plead and ask God for His help to overcome sin. To stop thoughts from progressing that are inappropriate. I can ask for forgiveness when I stumble have faith that I've been forgiven, and ask He who is able to keep me from falling to do just that.

Where your mind has landed in these matters is EXACTLY where EVIL PRESENT was meant to 'take you.' Into the condemnation of mankind and the PHARISITICAL EXCUSING of yourself. A very common working in christianity in general.

s

I don't condemn "mankind" I don't condemn anyone for that matter. But you haven't gotten that by now so I don't see that changing. And I don't excuse myself. I've been down this road before. Keeping the sabbath isn't a guarantee into heaven. It's an entire lifestyle of obedience and willingness to allow God to do what He said He would do; it's about faith in He who can makes us more than conquers.