Hello Dn Patrick
I always enjoy a good discussion
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Point 3. So in your view Scripture says the Theotokos sinned? Can you elaborate, as to where, how...? Also, in the first few centuries you say "numbers were in your favor". Can you elaborate on that too? It's been mentioned earlier on this thread and elsewhere that St John Chrysostomos wrote the Theotokos
may have sinned (which of course is different from saying, the Theotokos sinned). Do you have other examples? You mention problems with your evangelism - in the USA I assume - I should not and will not comment on that, since neither was I born nor do I or did I or will I ever live in the USA & your local problems should be solved by local minds. I will say however that as a matter of principle, I don't think it would be a good idea to go as far as dropping prayers, deleting services etc to make the "Faith that established the universe" more easily digestable to background X or background Y. What would you say, for example, if someone working towards evangelising roman catholics said that we ought to declare the Theotokos sinless by dogma, just to make Orthodoxy more appealing to catholics? Would you be happy about that? I mean, our faith is our faith & I don't think it should be tailored to one or the other background for the sake of increasing our numbers at all cost. But again that's just me and what do I know.
Point 6. Yes, you are right, I got out of my way, apologies. Hey, no discussion is good enough without some heat
. Can I ask though, if you say you are willing to accept SOME praise for the Theotokos, how much is that? Where are YOUR limits? I believe I have defined mine: the prayers of the Church are in, everything else is suspicious.
Point 7. I think in turn you are being a bit unfair here. Or maybe I wasn't clear enough in my answer. You asked what would be too much praise & I basically approached the issue by saying that the prayers of the Church aren't too much praise or too little praise, they are just right, and everything beyond and outside that is dangerous & suspicious of being too much (or too little). Did I spell it out better this time?
I didn't even say that everything any Orthodox does is OK. I said the services that the Church prescribes are OK, both (primarily) because the Church which (I repeat) is our authority, prescribes them, and also because they have passed the test of time - they have manifested generations upon generations of saints. May I also humbly suggest that, from my own discussions (and may I add here that I have lived and worked in three primarily protestant countries up to now), the main strumbling block of some (most?) protestants is exactly that,
accepting the authority of the Church over their individual interpretation of everything that moves. Once they get over that, the honour we ascribe to the Theotokos isn't so hard for them anymore, from the little that I've seen (I am not clergy or a missionary of course, it's just discussions with acquaintances).
As for "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" that some churches / jurisdictions are using, at least where I come from, it has been explained an awful lot of times that it means "...through your intercessions". Frankly, I remember discussions about this & how it should be understood probably since I was like 3 years old. In several parishes the effective synonym "Most Holy Theotokos, pray for us" is used instead, to avoid such misunderstandings. I don't think this is worth arguing about. Don't use it in your parish if it hinders your evangelisation or for any other reason, but at the same time please don't assume that Orthodox christians in parishes that use it think the Theotokos is our saviour... The rest I can't comment, I haven't seen a church with such a big icon of the Theotokos (do you mean the Platytera? if you mean that, it's usually in a place that's hardly visible to the laity & depending on the size of the Church & how much of it is covered with icons, the Pantocrator on the roof is bigger and more visible) and I haven't read the book you mention, but yes children of Orthodox families go to church to pray to Christ, the Panagia and the saints.
Point 8. I guess you are implicitly calling me an idolater by saying there's no limit to my veneration, nevertheless as I said no discussion is good enough without some heat
, so let's go on. Now you want me to define veneration vs worship. Define? We don't define. That's what Rome does
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OK, that was a joke. OrthodoxWiki has a nice definition which I think covers me:
Veneration is a way to show great respect and love for the holy. It is to treat something or someone with reverence, deep respect, and honor. Veneration is distinct from
worship, for worship is a total giving over of the self to be united with God, while veneration is showing delight for what
God has done. There can be confusion because one may venerate what one worships as well as venerate others. Veneration is part of worship to the Orthodox faithful, but they show love and respect to more than the God they worship.
I guess this is basics though. I don't even understand why you are asking. Does the above definition also cover you?
Point 9. You're welcome, but it wasn't difficult for me to "concede" anything. I have discussed this issue before & the idea that for Orthodox theology it doesn't really matter isn't new to me. One thing I don't personally like about the idea of the Theotokos being sinful, is that like we, by the Grace of God & through prayer and sometimes confession, we prepare ourselves to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord, even more so do I think that it makes sense to assume that the same Grace would probably have protected Her, who received in Her womb the Incarnate Logos. Sure, we aren't completely sinless when we commune, but also we don't receive the Incarnate Logos. Or rather, sure, we do receive Him mystically, but still I think common sense suggests what happened to Her was incomparably stronger than what is happening to us in every Liturgy, hence it's not unreasonable to assume God's Grace must have protected Her more than we are letting the same Grace prepare us. These are of course personal thoughts, nothing more.
I repeat, so that I am not again accused of introducing new doctrines, when I say protected, I mean in exactly the same way that the Grace of God protects us, you and me. No immaculate conceptions or special treatment or anything.
Another obvious thing that I don't like about the idea of the Theotokos being sinful, is that an awful lot of saints believed otherwise and I'd rather trust them than myself or you (sorry but)
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Phew, that was long
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