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sanctification.. process or one time event.

MrPolo

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Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Colossians 1:22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Point proven,under law,no one ever feels good enough.Condemnation personified!
Neither of these passages support what you say. Everyone in heaven will be holy and blameless when we are "before him" as Eph 1:4 says. This is a reference of standing before God face to face (1 Cor 13:12) in Paul's theology. He contrasts the perfection of THEN vs. NOW.

Unfortunately, perhaps none of us is in the identical state of holiness that he/she will have in heaven. I am sure you can, as can we, come up with Scriptures that demonstrate that Christians still commit sin. They are not perfect as they will be in heaven where they will never sin.
 
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MrPolo

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Paul was talkiing about walking in ressurection power.He also said we are free from sin 3 times in Romans 6.Something,or someone is free,is he not?
Free from sin does not mean you are perfect. Freed from sin is what mankind became when Christ died and rose. It means we can get to heaven. See previous post, and if necessary, we can go over examples in Scripture of true Christians sinning.

As to your stating that Paul to the Philippians was "talking about walking in resurrection power" I don't know what that sentence means. Can you clarify?
 
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ConqueredbyLove

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Well, God's Word tells me I am already seated in the Heavenlies with Christ Jesus...When I see the word "seated" I know it means the work has been done and I can sit down and rest.

It has already been done....past tense...God says it, I believe it....and this happened when I was "dead in trespasses and sins"...only by God's grace...

I am already saved, I am already sanctified...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


If you want to go ahead and keep working for your salvation and sanctification....go right ahead...

I will just keep resting :)


 
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ConqueredbyLove

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When a couple gets Married does it stop after the vows are does it just begin?

When we come to Christ that initial Justification is like our weddings vows but it does not stop there, the journey has just begun.

I agree. He desires for our relationship with Him to deepen and deepen and to become more and more precious and personal...and for our hearts to be set aflame with love for Him the more we come to know and experience Him.
 
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boswd

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I agree. He desires for our relationship with Him to deepen and deepen and to become more and more precious and personal...and for our hearts to be set aflame with love for Him the more we come to know and experience Him.

and that is Santification:amen:
 
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MrPolo

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If you want to go ahead and keep working for your salvation and sanctification....go right ahead...

Believing in the process of sanctification has nothing to do with "working" for "salvation." I think perhaps you have the terms justification and sanctification confused?
 
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Frogster

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Neither of these passages support what you say. Everyone in heaven will be holy and blameless when we are "before him" as Eph 1:4 says. This is a reference of standing before God face to face (1 Cor 13:12) in Paul's theology. He contrasts the perfection of THEN vs. NOW.

Unfortunately, perhaps none of us is in the identical state of holiness that he/she will have in heaven. I am sure you can, as can we, come up with Scriptures that demonstrate that Christians still commit sin. They are not perfect as they will be in heaven where they will never sin.
I dont understand why you think they are for the future? Eph 1# says he has blessed us in the heavenly places,present tense also.

Look at verse 7,it is present tense.

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

So why not verse 4?:)

Unless you dont think we have been redeemed?

Same as Col 1:22.I dont see why that is not for now?

Sure,as per both verses,in the future there will be the redemption of our physicial bodies.Yet Romans 6 says 3 times we are free from sin.

I harken back to Hebrews 10;10,by his sacrifice,we havs been made holy.Not like the old cov,where the priests had to repeatedly offer.:)
 
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Frogster

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Free from sin does not mean you are perfect. Freed from sin is what mankind became when Christ died and rose. It means we can get to heaven. See previous post, and if necessary, we can go over examples in Scripture of true Christians sinning.

As to your stating that Paul to the Philippians was "talking about walking in resurrection power" I don't know what that sentence means. Can you clarify?
Paul said he wanted to know Him,and the power of His resurrection.Phil 3:10,it was a moral ressurection.


Like here..

Rom 6:5-6 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin

And here..

Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

To me the scriptures teach that if we were crucified with Him,we are to walk raised with him,and as he walked in resurrection power,that is for us too,as per Rom 6:9,10,11.That is how we are freed from sin,as per the 3 times mentioned in chapter 6 of Romans.
 
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SGM4HIM

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Here's a quote from a Ben Witherington blog about justification I found interesting

"What the cross does is make atonement for sin, and make possible salvation, which has three tenses to it for the Christian

I have been saved= conversion,

I am being saved=sanctification which requires my own active and free participation, and

I shall be saved=final conformity to the image of the Son at the resurrection at which juncture final justification happens"

He also points out that he is saved by grace/ not by his own effort.
 
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ConqueredbyLove

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Believing in the process of sanctification has nothing to do with "working" for "salvation." I think perhaps you have the terms justification and sanctification confused?


No...No confusion here :) I understand what the term "justification" means and I understand what the term "sanctification" means...
 
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ConqueredbyLove

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and that is Santification:amen:

Isn't it wonderful that when Jesus looks at His Bride He says ~ Thou art all fair my beloved, there is no spot in Thee~

He sees me as perfect...I love that! In His eyes I am perfect...I am perfectly sanctified......In HIM...
 
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sunlover1

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Well, God's Word tells me I am already seated in the Heavenlies with Christ Jesus...When I see the word "seated" I know it means the work has been done and I can sit down and rest.

It has already been done....past tense...God says it, I believe it....and this happened when I was "dead in trespasses and sins"...only by God's grace...

I am already saved, I am already sanctified...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


If you want to go ahead and keep working for your salvation and sanctification....go right ahead...

I will just keep resting :)
I'm seated in the heavenly places with Christ, resting along with you.
:thumbsup:

When a couple gets Married does it stop after the vows are does it just begin?

When we come to Christ that initial Justification is like our weddings vows but it does not stop there, the journey has just begun.
But you're married, regardless of your actions after the vows.
It's a done deal.
Same with sanctification according to the passages that
have been already posted.

and that is Santification:amen:
I think this is where the problem is.
That is not what sanctification means...

I thought that this "expert
" explained it well.

You have asked a question which poses some difficulty. The words "sanctify," "sanctified," and "sanctification," only appear three times in the book of Romans. They are translations of the Greek words #37 and #38 in Strong's Concordance. As you can see from the verses below, being a servant or slave to God and/ or righteousness, results in sanctification.

From the OT, we understand that the Hebrew term translated as "sanctification" is often translated as "hallow" or "hallowed." The basic idea of the word is "to separate for a religious purpose." The priests were sanctified, that is separated from the common people, for their work in the temple. (See Strong's # 06942)

A Hebrew word closely related to sanctification is sometimes translated as "sodomite" or "temple prostitute." Even though we would not usually think of people like this as holy, they were separated from other people for idolatrous religious rites. (See Strong's # 06945)


The passages he posted after his explanation will help to explain it even better.
Take a look, see w;hat you think.


I dont understand why you think they are for the future? Eph 1# says he has blessed us in the heavenly places,present tense also.

Look at verse 7,it is present tense.

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

So why not verse 4?:)

Unless you dont think we have been redeemed?

Same as Col 1:22.I dont see why that is not for now?

Sure,as per both verses,in the future there will be the redemption of our physicial bodies.Yet Romans 6 says 3 times we are free from sin.

I harken back to Hebrews 10;10,by his sacrifice,we havs been made holy.Not like the old cov,where the priests had to repeatedly offer.:)
Excellent post, and btw, great thread.
If nothing else we can all learn something because this
is a very controversial subject but when the Scriptures are
more closely examined, we should all be in agreement.
imo..

sunlover
 
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boswd

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I'm seated in the heavenly places with Christ, resting along with you.
:thumbsup:


But you're married, regardless of your actions after the vows.
It's a done deal.
Same with sanctification according to the passages that
have been already posted.


I think this is where the problem is.
That is not what sanctification means...

I thought that this "expert
" explained it well.

You have asked a question which poses some difficulty. The words "sanctify," "sanctified," and "sanctification," only appear three times in the book of Romans. They are translations of the Greek words #37 and #38 in Strong's Concordance. As you can see from the verses below, being a servant or slave to God and/ or righteousness, results in sanctification.

From the OT, we understand that the Hebrew term translated as "sanctification" is often translated as "hallow" or "hallowed." The basic idea of the word is "to separate for a religious purpose." The priests were sanctified, that is separated from the common people, for their work in the temple. (See Strong's # 06942)

A Hebrew word closely related to sanctification is sometimes translated as "sodomite" or "temple prostitute." Even though we would not usually think of people like this as holy, they were separated from other people for idolatrous religious rites. (See Strong's # 06945)

The passages he posted after his explanation will help to explain it even better.
Take a look, see w;hat you think.



Excellent post, and btw, great thread.
If nothing else we can all learn something because this
is a very controversial subject but when the Scriptures are
more closely examined, we should all be in agreement.
imo..

sunlover



Ahhh but what's makes a strong marriage? After your vows you two go to your separate corners don't talk to each other and just coast through life, or come together as one as one and do all the things that make a marriage strong.


When I come home from work I don't just go to my study, eat alone, and then go to bed, Resting assured that "I'm Married".

I come home and greet my wife when she comes in, we make dinner together, we'll talk, we'll plan things out together.

The same goes with Sanctification that is our working towards making our Marriage to Christ strong.

I'm sorry I just don't buy the say the whole sinner's prayer and then you're done. You may have come to Christ but if your just going through the motions how strong is your marriage to Christ?

This is a little bit of a long read but I think John Wesley explains Santification better than anyone I have come across. He perfectly explains how separate Justification and Sanctification are and how they work together.

.Global Ministries - John Wesley, Sermon 43, The Scripture Way of Salvation
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Assurance of Salvation?



There are few more confusing topics than salvation. It goes beyond the standard question posed by Fundamentalists: "Have you been saved?" What the question also means is: "Don’t you wish you had the assurance of salvation?" Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance.

All they have to do is "accept Christ as their personal Savior," and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.

Kenneth E. Hagin, a well-known Pentecostal televangelist from the "Word Faith" wing of Protestantism, asserts that this assurance of salvation comes through being "born again": "Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Though much of Hagin’s theology is considered bizarre in Protestant circles, his explanation of being born again could be endorsed by millions of Evangelical Protestants. In his booklet, The New Birth, Hagin writes, "The new birth is a necessity to being saved. Through the new birth you come into the right relationship with God."

According to Hagin, there are many things that this new birth is not. "The new birth is not: confirmation, church membership, water baptism, the taking of sacraments, observing religious duties, an intellectual reception of Christianity, orthodoxy of faith, going to church, saying prayers, reading the Bible, being moral, being cultured or refined, doing good deeds, doing your best, nor any of the many other things some men are trusting in to save them." Those who have obtained the new birth "did the one thing necessary: they accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior by repenting and turning to God with the whole heart as a little child." That one act of the will, he explains, is all they needed to do. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.

Does this sound too good to be true? Yes, but nevertheless, it is something many Protestants claim. Take a look at what Wilson Ewin, the author of a booklet called There is Therefore Now No Condemnation, says. He writes that "the person who places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood shed at Calvary is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. No personal breaking of God’s or man’s laws or commandments can nullify that status."

"To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption," argues Ewin, and this is something he can say only because he confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively with our individual appropriation of that redemption. The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.

Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born "saved," with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.


You Can’t Lose Heaven?


Ewin says that "no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace. True, sinful conduct always lessens one’s fellowship with Christ, limits his contribution to God’s work and can result in serious disciplinary action by the Holy Spirit."

One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.

The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).


Can You Know?


Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is now in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The "knowability" of salvation is a different question than the "loseability" of salvation.

From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the "Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’"

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: "The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."

Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.

But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, "By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10), "If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 John 4:20), "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, "It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel" (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.

Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

For example, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.


What To Say


"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."


Some comments:


1. The level of misunderstanding both amazes and saddens me. And it seems to me the author of this mysterious, uncredited "copy-and-paste" article isn't interested in reality - just perpetuating misunderstanding.


2. I don't think I could live my life not having assurance of the Gospel. To live in such a relativistic world where NOTHING is knowable, NOTHING is sure - I just don't think I could live my life the way the mysterious author of this uncredited article suggests we should. John penned by divien inspiration, "These things are written that you may KNOW....." Know, not "hope - just like you hope someday to win the lottery."


3. As several predicted, this thread spins because terms were never defined.






.
 
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boswd

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Some comments:


1. The level of misunderstanding both amazes and saddens me. And it seems to me the author of this mysterious, uncredited "copy-and-paste" article isn't interested in reality - just perpetuating misunderstanding.


2. I don't think I could live my life not having assurance of the Gospel. To live in such a relativistic world where NOTHING is knowable, NOTHING is sure - I just don't think I could live my life the way the mysterious author of this uncredited article suggests we should. John penned by divien inspiration, "These things are written that you may KNOW....." Know, not "hope - just like you hope someday to win the lottery."


3. As several predicted, this thread spins because terms were never defined.





.



Actually that article really isn't too far off the mark. I married into a Pentacostal Fundemental family. And Oh Yeah, it's the Sinner's prayer and that's it.

Seriously they don't considered people saved and only considered people saved unless that have taken the Alter Call or Sinner's prayer.


But you also have to remember that this isn't talkng about not having assurance in God and the Gospels but it agains the whole "I've said the prayer and now I can go live life how I want, because I am saved".

That what the article is about.
God is assurance but man is not.
 
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squint

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2. I don't think I could live my life not having assurance of the Gospel. To live in such a relativistic world where NOTHING is knowable, NOTHING is sure - I just don't think I could live my life the way the mysterious author of this uncredited article suggests we should. John penned by divien inspiration, "These things are written that you may KNOW....." Know, not "hope - just like you hope someday to win the lottery."

Well, there is one thing we do KNOW from our RCC friends. They have no assurances of salvation. The RCC is not providing any form of assurances in these matters, save for those deemed 'saints' after decades or even centuries of long research and forensics...they MIGHT THEN dare to take an outside shot at the prediction that SOMEBODY actually MADE IT....with a very long list of legal disclaimers attached in the fine print.

It is the dangling of hope. The brass ring that NONE have any guarantee of til THEN. The constructions of soothing salve over their shortcomings...to deem them at least temporarily 'worthy' IF they were truly meaningful inside, which they have absolutely NO WAY of determining.

Lottery....lol...sad but true.
 
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boswd

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Well, there is one thing we do KNOW from our RCC friends. They have no assurances of salvation. The RCC is not providing any form of assurances in these matters, save for those deemed 'saints' after decades or even centuries of long research and forensics...they MIGHT THEN dare to take an outside shot at the prediction that SOMEBODY actually MADE IT....with a very long list of legal disclaimers attached in the fine print.

It is the dangling of hope. The brass ring that NONE have any guarantee of til THEN. The constructions of soothing salve over their shortcomings...to deem them at least temporarily 'worthy' IF they were truly meaningful inside, which they have absolutely NO WAY of determining.

Lottery....lol...sad but true.



:confused::confused:
The RCC aren't the only ones who don't preach OSAS. Most of Christianity does not preach OSAS.
 
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squint

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:confused::confused:
The RCC aren't the only ones who don't preach OSAS. Most of Christianity does not preach OSAS.

Never said otherwise. Most of old line orthodoxy landed in the same place...a big old solid MAYBE, MAYBE NOT, and this to their own faithful membership. Their structures are now so full of legalese that even their own lawyers have a hard time sorting through the matters...and here's a clue...they never WILL...they are perpetually trapped in the constructions of their own makings. Their own 'internal rules' have multiplied and wrapped around their own systems not much different than our civil governments. Eventually those things result in deterioration, stagnancy and eventually, well, I'll pass on that view.
 
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