Dont I Get A Choice?

[Steezie]

Weren't you saying something in earlier posts about being detailed and how careful distinctions made a big difference? You wrote:

(Emphasis mine)

And:



In light of these remarks I should think you'd appreciate the value of the distinction I'm making above.

But you ARENT making a distinction, "flexible" and "changeable" are synonyms.

The whole matter of the nature of truth is expansive and would require rather a lot of writing to clarify, and define, and argue. Doing so is unnecessary, however, in light of all that has already been written on the matter. If you want to know more, read Ravi Zacharias, or Alvin Plantinga, or C.S. Lewis, or any of the other philosophers who argue in favor of absolute truth.

Im well aware of the arguments in favor of absolute truth and I find them contradictory and intellectually lazy (for lack of a better term)

 

[ephraimanesti]

So, why DONT I have an actual choice in the course of my own life?

Soooooo . . . getting back to your original question--the answer is YES.

God has gifted all His children with freewill--the right to choose their lives and their destinies.

This gift can be a mixed blessing however, and, unfortunately, by following your animal instincts rather than your Loving Creator's guidance and counsel, settling for lust rather than Love, you have chosen life as an animal--as the atheist religion teaches--rather than the Spiritual existence which is your God-given heritage as Abba's child--which God's Word teaches.

This is a sadly misguided and everlastingly detrimental choice, but you do indeed have the God-given absolute freedom and right to make it--and, unhappily, to reap its everlasting cataclysmic consequences.

Are there any other "questions" we can help you with?

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Steezie]

Soooooo . . . getting back to your original question--the answer is YES.

God has gifted all His children with freewill--the right to choose their lives and their destinies.

This gift can be a mixed blessing however, and, unfortunately, by following your animal instincts rather than your Loving Creator's guidance and counsel, settling for lust rather than Love, you have chosen life as an animal--as the atheist religion teaches--rather than the Spiritual existence which is your God-given heritage as Abba's child--which God's Word teaches.

This is a sadly misguided and everlastingly detrimental choice, but you do indeed have the God-given absolute freedom and right to make it--and, unhappily, to reap its everlasting cataclysmic consequences.

That doesnt seem like a real choice. Trying to influence my decision (assuming that I get one) with threats doesnt seem very fair.

 

[ephraimanesti]

That doesnt seem like a real choice. Trying to influence my decision (assuming that I get one) with threats doesnt seem very fair.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

WHAT THREATS? As a parent, if i tell my child he should not run out into the street because he will be hit by a car and killed--is that a threat? NO--it is an accurate and Loving explanation of the situation.

GOD IS LOVE! He is doing everything in His Power to keep us from self-chosen disaster. If we ignore His pleas we have only ourselves to blame for the consequences which naturally accrue. All sin containains within itself the consequences we suffer as a result of the sin's commission.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Steezie]

MY DEAR BROTHER,

WHAT THREATS? As a parent, if i tell my child he should not run out into the street because he will be hit by a car and killed--is that a threat? NO--it is an accurate and Loving explanation of the situation.

But that ISNT analogus to what you describe. Its more along the lines of dont run into the street because I'll punish you for doing it.

GOD IS LOVE!

Then he of all beings should understand why I may feel love for more than one person.

 

[ephraimanesti]

But that ISNT analogus to what you describe. Its more along the lines of dont run into the street because I'll punish you for doing it.

Well, i guess you are going to view it as you wish to view it. More's the pity! Instead of a Loving Abba with open arms all you can see is His opposite. Not a pretty sight, i am sure.

Then he of all beings should understand why I may feel love for more than one person.

This is indeed and--for you unfortunately--True! Your problem is that being Love, God in His infinite understanding has set protective guidelines and parameters to differentiate and protect what is truely Love from that which is merely lust. By disregarding God's guidelines and parameters you have, as mentioned before, turned your back on the possibility of giving or receiving True Love and have settled for the fleeting ersatz pleasures of lust. Again, more's the pity!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Steezie]

This is indeed and--for you unfortunately--True! Your problem is that being Love, God in His infinite understanding has set protective guidelines and parameters to differentiate and protect what is truely Love from that which is merely lust. By disregarding God's guidelines and parameters you have, as mentioned before, turned your back on the possibility of giving or receiving True Love and have settled for the fleeting ersatz pleasures of lust. Again, more's the pity

Translation: Love is what I say it is

 

[ephraimanesti]

Translation: Love is what I say it is

So you would have us believe. But, in all actuality, Love is what GOD says it is.

For example: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washingwith water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church--for we are members of His body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church."(Ephesians 5:25-32)

Not much room for "poly"-ing around there!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Steezie]

So you would have us believe. But, in all actuality, Love is what GOD says it is.

For example: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washingwith water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church--for we are members of His body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church."(Ephesians 5:25-32)

Not much room for "poly"-ing around there!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

My beliefs do not encompass that line of thought.

 

[ephraimanesti]

My beliefs do not encompass that line of thought.

Well, yeah. This is necessary and obvious, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do the things you do and call them "love." Creating your own definitions for words, ideas, and concepts allows you to do anything and everything in their "name" and under their rubric but, fortunately--or unfortunately--this doesn't change the reality of the situation and the reality of what you are REALLY doing.

The scary part is that eventually you can tune your conscious out completely, hardening your heart and closing your mind, until your moral compass becomes completely inoperable and you sail off into the darkness in a state of ignorant bliss and are lost.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[RedRaven]

You may not have a choice in God or Deity involvement but that doesn't take away from your ability to continue to make your own decisions. Free will and all that.

I've done some reading on polyamorous relationships. I'm not poly but I came across the word and was curious. I am all about being true to yourself, and while I don't share the ability to love more than one I do understand it's completely possible.

Question for those who are questioning what it is...how do you feel about polygamy? There are several passages in the Bible that speak of men taking on many wives, and passages that lay down some rules for men with many wives. Many of those who practice it love more than one person, are doing so within a marriage, and can quote scripture to back up the choices they have made.

 

[ephraimanesti]

I've done some reading on polyamorous relationships. I'm not poly but I came across the word and was curious. I am all about being true to yourself, and while I don't share the ability to love more than one I do understand it's completely possible.

You know it's a funny thing about words--how they can be tweaked in an Orwellian manner and sugarcoated to the point where the once unacceptable and perverse can be made to sound pretty darn mainstream and cool.

Any way you look at it, however, it's still a pretty big linguistic leap from the biblical "whoremongering" to the prettified "polyamorous relationship." Same game, different name. Who y'all kiddin?

ephraim

 

[RedRaven]

hmmm....I don't think that answered my question.

 

[ephraimanesti]

hmmm....I don't think that answered my question.

Which is, my sister?

If you are referring to fact that God, in another time, another place, another culture, and another people allowed multiple marriages, these facts are irrelevant to His expectations for us--here and now.

As Jesus pointed out, God also, in the past, allowed for the writing of "a certificate of divorce" and the taking of another wife because peoples' "hearts were hard".(Mark 10:1-11) However, that was in the past and He now stated with authority that this act was one of adultery.

It might also be mentioned that at one time slavery was condoned--or at least tolerated by God--but is now seen as a great evil and a sin.

The Bible is a written history of a peoples' Spiritual evolvement--(yes, i believe in this kind of evolution!)--from spiritual toddlers to mature spiritual adults. Obviously, different behavior is expected from the latter than the former. As Saint Paul writes, speaking of Love, "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."(I Corinthians 13:11)

A mature realistic sense of the meaning of Love is one of the changes expected by God, and it was for this purpose that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ to appear in the flesh as a concrete role-model of the meaning of Love and what God expects of us in this all-important area. The grace-filled gift of God's indwelling Holy Spirit, given to allow us to Love as God Loves, makes it possible for us to live up to Abba's expectations.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[RedRaven]

If you are referring to fact that God, in another time, another place, another culture, and another people allowed multiple marriages, these facts are irrelevant to His expectations for us--here and now.

That sounds to me like cherry picking. You can say that about a great deal of passages if you really wanted to. People and culture have evolved in many ways since the Bible was written. You pointed out that "a certificate of divorce" was once allowed but Jesus did away with that. Did he also do that with polygamy? Or, since you brought it up, slavery? What else did he change specifically? Or, as your argument states, have things simply changed because the culture and times have? Let me hit on a hot topic item...homosexuality. As time goes on it becomes more accepted within our culture. Will in 20 or 40 years (if things progress as they currently are) that passage in Leviticus simply be another time, another place, another culture, and another people?

Seems a dangerous argument to make.

 

[ephraimanesti]

That sounds to me like cherry picking. You can say that about a great deal of passages if you really wanted to. People and culture have evolved in many ways since the Bible was written. You pointed out that "a certificate of divorce" was once allowed but Jesus did away with that. Did he also do that with polygamy? Or, since you brought it up, slavery? What else did he change specifically? Or, as your argument states, have things simply changed because the culture and times have? Let me hit on a hot topic item...homosexuality. As time goes on it becomes more accepted within our culture. Will in 20 or 40 years (if things progress as they currently are) that passage in Leviticus simply be another time, another place, another culture, and another people?

Seems a dangerous argument to make.

MY SISTER,

Your point is a valid one. However, just as God created all things, He has control over all things, and He manifests His will to us though His indwelling Holy Spirit. When God desires change in the process of raising His children to a new level of Spiritual Growth, the directions regarding change and the Power to bring that change about come through Him.

To briefly answer your questions: Yes, it was Christian leadership which guided and Christian "soldiers" which brought about the end of slavery in the west, just as it was Christian leadership and Christian "soldiers" which fought for Civil Rights in the recent past. (You might compare this with the result of the efforts of atheist leadership and atheist "soldiers" bringing about changes in Soviet Russia, Communist China, North Korea, Cambodia, etc. The differences between the powers of Light and darkness should be obvious!)

Polygamy had ceased in Jewish society by Jesus' time, but He did stress the sanctity of marriage and always spoke of it in the singular, as in, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."(Mark 10:11,12) And Paul, of course, throughout his Letters stresses the need for Christian leaders to set good examples by being "the husband of one wife" as in I Timothy 3:2. There are no exceptions to monogamy mentioned in the New Testament Scriptures.

So, in part, you are right by stating that societal changes are at least partially culturally defined and instituted, but you must realize that up until recently, our culture has been of Judeo-Christian origin, and there is no separation between Church and State where the workings of the Holy Spirit are concerned. As the Thirteenth President of the United States, Calvin Coolidge, put it, "The foundation of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country." However, you mention homosexually as an example of views towards sinful taboos changing in society by cultural means. In the case of homosexuality, as in the case of "legalized" abortions, the change you speak of is a change brought about by our society turning away from God, from its Judeo-Christian heritege, and the moral standards upon which this country was founded, and blindly wandering off into the darkness of moral relativity which, unfortunately, my generation planted and nurtured the seeds of in the 60's and 70's. There is ample evidence, for example, that "free love" is far from "free", but our society has become so blinded by "doing its own thing" that it cannot see the decadence and destruction brought about by its turning from God and creating its own, ever-changing/ever-shifting, ideas regarding right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral, etc.

So, in essence, you are witnessing the death of a culture rather than mere superficial culture-wrought changes. It is, in essence, a descent into moral anarchy. That this descent is well adviced--perhaps past the point of no-return, should be beyond question for anyone with access to the morning newspaper or the evening news.

Finally, the greatest change our Lord Jesus brought about was His changing the external governing by the harsh law of the Old Testament into the internal self-governing of our Love for God as mediated and expressed under the direction and through the Power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. As St. Augustine put it, "Love, and do what you will." Christians seek to do God's will in all things not because of fear of Him, but because of our Love of Abba and our gratitude for all He has done for us through His glorious Grace--not the least of which is the gift of His Son to be our Brother, Mentor, and Guide.

MAY YOU EXPERIENCE GOD'S GRACE AND PEACE FOR YOURSELF!

IN CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[RedRaven]

To briefly answer your questions: Yes, it was Christian leadership which guided and Christian "soldiers" which brought about the end of slavery in the west, just as it was Christian leadership and Christian "soldiers" which fought for Civil Rights in the recent past. (You might compare this with the result of the efforts of atheist leadership and atheist "soldiers" bringing about changes in Soviet Russia, Communist China, North Korea, Cambodia, etc. The differences between the powers of Light and darkness should be obvious!)

Links please? Unbiased sites if you can.

And I appreciate the good of Christianity and bad of everyone else argument. Really. I know it's hard to see anyone outside of Christianity do good. So, can you tell me where the power of light came in when Jacob stole Easu's blessing? I know that Jacob had God's favor but stealing it wasn't exactly the "Christian" thing to do was it? Was it God's hate for Easu (from birth Rom. 9:11-13) that justified Jacob's action, that washed the sin so to speak away from that act? Does that justification then set a precedent that allows you to lie, cheat, and steal for the greater good as long as God hates the other guy?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Links please? Unbiased sites if you can.

MY SISTER,

i trust very little on the Internet as biased information is few and far between. i think books are a much better source, and if you would tell me your particular area of interest, i could perhaps steer you towards some source material. If the subject of Christian involvement in the abolition and civil rights movements, there is a wealth of readily available information. For example, you might check out THE RISE AND FALL OF AMERICAN SLAVERY by Robert William Fogel, THE SLAVE TRADE by Hugh Thomas, or any of the biographies of William Wilberforce. For information on the Civil Rights Movement, the biographies of Martin Luther King Jr., his writings, or any of the chronicles of that time and place will provide an accurate picture of God's hand in the emancipation and civil rights movements. Nary an atheist in sight! As Abraham Lincoln--"The Great Emancipator" himself stated, "In regard to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to men. All the good Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong."(Baltimore, Sept. 9, 1864)

(As an aside, i must confess that i am an addictive reader, and i research as completely as possible all topics of interest--especially in the Spiritual realm. For example, i spent many years studying world religions before coming to believe that Christianity held the fullness of Truth--all religions containing varying amount of truth--some more, some less. Christianity worships He Who IS the Truth.)

Was it God's hate for Easu that justified Jacob's action, that washed the sin so to speak away from that act? Does that justification then set a precedent that allows you to lie, cheat, and steal for the greater good as long as God hates the other guy?

We are told by St. Paul that we are never to do evil that good may come.(Romans 3:8) God, of course, follows His own commandments, and He picked Jacob over Esau not because of His hatred of Esau for some quirky reason, but because of Esau's hatred of God. God's judgment in this regard was based upon His foreknowledge of their respective Hearts, Esau eventually trading off his birthright for a bowl of stew and marrying daughters of Hittites--who were ungodly pagans to the Nth degree. As the Letter to the Hebrews described him, "See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears."(Hebrews 12:16-17)

God hates no one, but hates and despises the evil which is committed because it destroys human happiness and the perfection of the universe He created, and He deals with it accordingly, the outcome being determined by God's knowledge of the Heart. "God is Love."(I John 4:8) That is the only precident He sets before us and the only criteria by which our faithfulness and surrender to Him and to each other can be judged.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Steezie]

Well, yeah. This is necessary and obvious, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do the things you do and call them "love." Creating your own definitions for words, ideas, and concepts allows you to do anything and everything in their "name" and under their rubric but, fortunately--or unfortunately--this doesn't change the reality of the situation and the reality of what you are REALLY doing.

Wow, could you be ANY more condescending?

The scary part is that eventually you can tune your conscious out completely, hardening your heart and closing your mind, until your moral compass becomes completely inoperable and you sail off into the darkness in a state of ignorant bliss and are lost.

What makes you think I dont operate with a conscience?

Again, do you realize just how blatantly you're coming off?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Wow, could you be ANY more condescending?

MY DEAR BROTHER,

i don't believe "condescending"--meaning "talking down to"--is an applicable word here. i think the most appropriate word would be "RESPONSIBILITY"--both to God and to you.

As God explains to the Prophet Ezekiel, "When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sins, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself."(Ezekiel 3:18, 19)

What makes you think I dont operate with a conscience?

The fact that you "operate" as you do and, in the process, even attempt to make a perverse sin appear acceptable.

Again, do you realize just how blatantly you're coming off?

Yes. However, if you choose, for whatever unfathomable reason, to post in a Christian Forum, it is logical that you might expect a Christian response.

And the answer to your opening questions is a resounding "YES". Perhaps there is a better venue you could choose in which to extoll the virtues of your warped and sinful view of "love."

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim