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The LOGIC as to why gay marriage should be ILLEGAL

ToddNotTodd

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Im still reading this thread and following along. I piped in a few pages back if you care to check. In some ways, I feel like "whats the point", seeing how how easily so many people on here justify obvious immorality under the guise of rationality.

This is sad, but not surprising at all. This person has the chance to learn a bit about logic and learn from their mistakes, but seems to be choosing to ignore or address the faults we find in his arguments. I'm predicting that this person will continue to use the same arguments even after shown they don't logically work.

And that is very, very dishonest.
 
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David Brider

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I'm going to repeat what I said a moment ago, which apparently got overlooked:

They have equal rights. There is no right that I have that they do not have.

They do not have the right to marry who they fall in love with. That is a right you do have. Therefore, you are wrong to say "There is no right that I have that they do not have."

What you are attempting to do is change the meaning of the word "marriage".

What, to you, is the meaning of the word "marriage"? To me - and I speak as someone who's going to be getting married in a little under a month's time - the meaning of marriage is two people who are in love with each other making a commitment to stay together for the rest of their natural lives and solemnising that commitment in a ceremony in front of their families, friends, and any god(s) in whom they happen to believe.

That definition can quite easily encompass same-gender couples as easily as it encompasses opposite-gender couples. No change of definition needed.

David.
 
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David Brider

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Im still reading this thread and following along. I piped in a few pages back if you care to check. In some ways, I feel like "whats the point", seeing how how easily so many people on here justify obvious immorality under the guise of rationality.

FWIW, may I just point you in the direction of this post of mine? Your feedback would be appreciated.
 
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ziggy29

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What, to you, is the meaning of the word "marriage"? To me - and I speak as someone who's going to be getting married in a little under a month's time - the meaning of marriage is two people who are in love with each other making a commitment to stay together for the rest of their natural lives and solemnising that commitment in a ceremony in front of their families, friends, and any god(s) in whom they happen to believe.
It seems that more and more we're not even discussing the validity of legal same-sex civil unions under man's law, but more and more just engaging in a tug of war over the "m" word. Maybe we should ashcan the "m" word, just start referring to sacred, church-blessed unions and legal, state-approved unions and be done with it.

I think same-sex civil unions would be legal in a few more states if their proponents didn't insist on attaching the m-word to it, but that's just my opinion.
 
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CoderHead

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I think same-sex civil unions would be legal in a few more states if their proponents didn't insist on attaching the m-word to it, but that's just my opinion.
Food for thought. You may be right.
 
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Maren

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It seems that more and more we're not even discussing the validity of legal same-sex civil unions under man's law, but more and more just engaging in a tug of war over the "m" word. Maybe we should ashcan the "m" word, just start referring to sacred, church-blessed unions and legal, state-approved unions and be done with it.

I think same-sex civil unions would be legal in a few more states if their proponents didn't insist on attaching the m-word to it, but that's just my opinion.

The problem is that, if you are married, you can move from Iowa to Massachusetts and still be considered married, even if you are a same-sex couple. If you move from California and are a gay couple, you are not married (or have a civil partnership) in Massachusetts. For all the claims that civil partnerships are equal to marry, the fact is that they are not.

Not to mention the US has had a poor track record in providing "separate but equal". And that what marriage for some couples but civil unions for other partners is. And these are the reasons why gays tend to be insisting on marriage.

Not to mention, it seems among many Christian even the "separate but equal" isn't something they are willing to consider. In Washington state this past year, gay couples were granted civil unions that were the equivalent to marriage and there is already a movement by Christians to overturn the law. While the petitions are still being checked, it does appear as if this will make it on the ballot. And Washington is one of the more liberal states.

Last, this whole idea that gays have an equal right to marriage is just special pleading. As someone else pointed out, interracial marriage should still be illegal since Blacks and Whites had an equal right to marry, they just couldn't marry each other. And I trust you'd have no complaint if Utah passed a law declaring Mormonism the true form of Christianity and that no other Christian churches would be allowed. After all, you'd still have an equal right as other Christians to worship in Utah so you'd have equal rights, right?
 
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atomweaver

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It seems that more and more we're not even discussing the validity of legal same-sex civil unions under man's law, but more and more just engaging in a tug of war over the "m" word. Maybe we should ashcan the "m" word, just start referring to sacred, church-blessed unions and legal, state-approved unions and be done with it.

I've got two votes in favor for that solution.

I think same-sex civil unions would be legal in a few more states if their proponents didn't insist on attaching the m-word to it, but that's just my opinion.

I had that opinion for a time, but the fact is, if their union were called something different, it would just create more opportunities for them to be discriminated against. Imagine a standard form questionnaire;

Are you;
A) Single
B) Married
C) in a Civil Union

Choose "C", and you're just voluntarily making yourself an easier mark for sexual orientation discrimination by whomever is handling your paperwork...
 
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ziggy29

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The problem is that, if you are married, you can move from Iowa to Massachusetts and still be considered married, even if you are a same-sex couple. If you move from California and are a gay couple, you are not married (or have a civil partnership) in Massachusetts. For all the claims that civil partnerships are equal to marry, the fact is that they are not.
As a practical point it doesn't *matter* whether a state calls it "civil union" or "marriage." That has no bearing (currently) on whether or not another state chooses to recognize it. And it certainly doesn't change what the federal government does with respect to its recognition of civil unions vis-a-vis marriage.

I just don't see the relevance "separate but equal" argument I've heard so many on this issue. I know of no one who supports legal same-sex civil unions who believes they should not have the exact same rights and responsibilities as what we call a same-sex married couple today. (Heck, I'd be all for getting rid of LEGAL recognition of marriage, making all of it a civil union and leaving another ceremony to be the church-blessed one. Maybe we shouldn't call that marriage either, just to agree to stop fighting over that word.)

I just think that the proponents of advancing gay rights in the secular world are doing themselves a disservice by insisting on the m-word if they prefer results over symbolism and principle. Almost all social and political movements advanced through incrementalism. Women were granted the right to vote on a state by state basis for decades until the passage of the 19th Amendment, for example. And I think the recent voter initiative in California probably passes if its proponents didn't reach for the m-word.
 
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ziggy29

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Imagine a standard form questionnaire;

Are you;
A) Single
B) Married
C) in a Civil Union

Choose "C", and you're just voluntarily making yourself an easier mark for sexual orientation discrimination by whomever is handling your paperwork...
But you see, if there was a distinction between LEGAL (state-recognized) civil unions and a strictly sacred one, this question would run afoul of laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of religion.

To the degree "marital" or coupled status is anyone's business, the only legal response would (or should) be "not in civil union" or "in civil union" (or some such). Asking about one's status with respect to religious union would result in a lawsuit.
 
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Maren

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As a practical point it doesn't *matter* whether a state calls it "civil union" or "marriage." That has no bearing (currently) on whether or not another state chooses to recognize it. And it certainly doesn't change what the federal government does with respect to its recognition of civil unions vis-a-vis marriage.

Except there are already examples that they aren't equivalent, regardless of how you feel. I mean, suppose you moved from Vermont to Connecticut a few years ago and found your relationship with your spouse was not longer recognized -- this is exactly what happened when a lesbian couple who had a civil union in Vermont moved to Connecticut, which also had civil unions.

Further, it has been mentioned on here that some national employers in states with civil unions have refused to offer spousal benefits to those in civil unions because they are not married.

I just don't see the relevance "separate but equal" argument I've heard so many on this issue. I know of no one who supports legal same-sex civil unions who believes they should not have the exact same rights and responsibilities as what we call a same-sex married couple today. (Heck, I'd be all for getting rid of LEGAL recognition of marriage, making all of it a civil union and leaving another ceremony to be the church-blessed one. Maybe we shouldn't call that marriage either, just to agree to stop fighting over that word.)

And just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist. Washington, as mentioned, is an example of this. Prior to this year Washington had civil partnerships that offered some, but not all, of the protections of marriage. This year the Washington legislature amended the law to make civil partnerships have the same rights and benefits as marriage. And this is when Christian groups started petitioning to have the law overturned, their objection is precisely because they don't believe that gays should have all the rights of marriage, even under another name. And they got roughly 150,000 signatures to put it on the ballot.

I just think that the proponents of advancing gay rights in the secular world are doing themselves a disservice by insisting on the m-word if they prefer results over symbolism and principle. Almost all social and political movements advanced through incrementalism. Women were granted the right to vote on a state by state basis for decades until the passage of the 19th Amendment, for example. And I think the recent voter initiative in California probably passes if its proponents didn't reach for the m-word.

Again, I think this is a matter of perception on your part. For example, rather than fight for marriage or even civil union laws in the federal government, gay political groups have fought for things like inclusion in federal hate crime laws and, having gotten that passed, are now working toward non-discrimination laws. And the political process typically goes this way in most states. Not to mention, they are getting gay marriage laws passed on a state by state basis just like your 19th Amendment example. And I think every state that has passed gay marriage laws had some type of civil union law prior to the marriage law being passed.

Last, why have two separate volumes of law that do the same thing? This is what you are proposing when it comes to having both civil unions and marriage. Not to mention the revisions that would have to be made to existing laws to include civil unions.

As for your not seeing the problems with "separate but equal", I think you'd feel differently if you were a small minority that did fall under different statutes than the majority. It becomes too easy for a legislature to tinker with the laws in on set of statutes but to "forget" to change one set of statutes or even openly and intentionally decide that it is just a minority and we need to save money on programs. Remember, segregation was intentionally set up to be separate but equal but it was quite easy to give the minority less money for schools and other programs when money was tight. And maybe you are right, maybe gays are being paranoid about this -- but again, if you were in their shoes I think separate but equal would scare you too.
 
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Maren

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But you see, if there was a distinction between LEGAL (state-recognized) civil unions and a strictly sacred one, this question would run afoul of laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of religion.

To the degree "marital" or coupled status is anyone's business, the only legal response would (or should) be "not in civil union" or "in civil union" (or some such). Asking about one's status with respect to religious union would result in a lawsuit.

No, because we aren't talking about a "sacred marriage". Presumably an atheist opposite sex couple could still be married, so the religious argument would not hold water. Not to mention, there were problems getting employers to provide benefits to spouses of couples in civil unions since they were not married.

Of course, by contrast we will hear arguments that the sexual discrimination against civil unions is justified by religion -- some religious individuals will invariably make the claim that they are not required to recognize (or provide services or benefits) to those in civil unions as it discriminates against that person's religion (promoting sin).
 
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atomweaver

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But you see, if there was a distinction between LEGAL (state-recognized) civil unions and a strictly sacred one, this question would run afoul of laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of religion.

But you see, there is no such thing as a "strictly sacred" marriage. Marriage is a legal institution. For some, (but not all) it is also an institution ordained* by (their) God. Just because a church imbues the legal contract with additional religious responsibilities doesn't mean it has the right to re-define the institution for the rest of the population. That would be a form of forced religious conversion by acts of political activism.




*Main Entry: or·dain transitive verb 1 : to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority
 
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OllieFranz

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Except there are already examples that they aren't equivalent, regardless of how you feel. I mean, suppose you moved from Vermont to Connecticut a few years ago and found your relationship with your spouse was not longer recognized -- this is exactly what happened when a lesbian couple who had a civil union in Vermont moved to Connecticut, which also had civil unions.

Further, it has been mentioned on here that some national employers in states with civil unions have refused to offer spousal benefits to those in civil unions because they are not married.

Specifically, there is the case in New Jersey. After their Supreme Court ruled that same-sex couples must have the same rights as cross-sex couples, they left it to the legislature do decide whether to extend marriage or create Civil Union. The legislature took the second route.

UPS refused to allow employees to sign up for health and similar benefits as a family if the couple were civil-unioned. Even though it did allow it in Massachusetts, where the union is called marriage. Even though both the Court ruling and the law the Legislature wrote clearly stated that there was to be no difference in the rights afforded civilly unioned couples compared with married couples.

And just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist. Washington, as mentioned, is an example of this. Prior to this year Washington had civil partnerships that offered some, but not all, of the protections of marriage. This year the Washington legislature amended the law to make civil partnerships have the same rights and benefits as marriage. And this is when Christian groups started petitioning to have the law overturned, their objection is precisely because they don't believe that gays should have all the rights of marriage, even under another name. And they got roughly 150,000 signatures to put it on the ballot.



Again, I think this is a matter of perception on your part. For example, rather than fight for marriage or even civil union laws in the federal government, gay political groups have fought for things like inclusion in federal hate crime laws and, having gotten that passed, are now working toward non-discrimination laws. And the political process typically goes this way in most states. Not to mention, they are getting gay marriage laws passed on a state by state basis just like your 19th Amendment example. And I think every state that has passed gay marriage laws had some type of civil union law prior to the marriage law being passed.

Last, why have two separate volumes of law that do the same thing? This is what you are proposing when it comes to having both civil unions and marriage. Not to mention the revisions that would have to be made to existing laws to include civil unions.

As for your not seeing the problems with "separate but equal", I think you'd feel differently if you were a small minority that did fall under different statutes than the majority. It becomes too easy for a legislature to tinker with the laws in on set of statutes but to "forget" to change one set of statutes or even openly and intentionally decide that it is just a minority and we need to save money on programs. Remember, segregation was intentionally set up to be separate but equal but it was quite easy to give the minority less money for schools and other programs when money was tight. And maybe you are right, maybe gays are being paranoid about this -- but again, if you were in their shoes I think separate but equal would scare you too.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Im still reading this thread and following along. I piped in a few pages back if you care to check. In some ways, I feel like "whats the point", seeing how how easily so many people on here justify obvious immorality under the guise of rationality.
Your idea of "obvious" is interesting.

Tell me, can you actually give a single logical reason against homosexuality, or is the best you can do to cvompare homosexuality to something else, and then condemn THAT, and hope to win by association?
 
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Your idea of "obvious" is interesting.

Tell me, can you actually give a single logical reason against homosexuality, or is the best you can do to cvompare homosexuality to something else, and then condemn THAT, and hope to win by association?

Come on, surely it should be obvious to a voter of the party containing such luminaries as Bill Heffernan that a social relationship (marriage) should be defined solely with reference to a natural process (reproduction) which only contingently has anything at all to do with the social relationship! It is only logical! I guess you are one of those that are just happy to wallow in your immorality. How irrational of you :p
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Come on, surely it should be obvious to a voter of the party containing such luminaries as Bill Heffernan that a social relationship (marriage) should be defined solely with reference to a natural process (reproduction) which only contingently has anything at all to do with the social relationship! It is only logical! I guess you are one of those that are just happy to wallow in your immorality. How irrational of you :p
When Bob Brown shows up to rape your children, lets see if your attitude changes.
 
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When Bob Brown shows up to rape your children, lets see if your attitude changes.

It would indeed take such an event to convert me to the obvious and moral path of rationality. Let's hope it happens some time soon, otherwise I'm going to hell :thumbsup:
 
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Your idea of "obvious" is interesting.

Tell me, can you actually give a single logical reason against homosexuality, or is the best you can do to cvompare homosexuality to something else, and then condemn THAT, and hope to win by association?

Well first a start, if everyone was gay, then that lifestyle choice would result in the extinction of mankind. Thats a pretty good place to start (and yes i know gays and lesbians can 'join forces' to reproduce, so please dont bother pointing out the obvious). Secondly, lets look at male homosexuality. Its clearly UNHYGENIC (to the millionith degree) for a man to penetrate somewhere where the ONLY thing that comes out is human feaces (if that doesnt revile you i dont imagine anything will) - (and yes im aware gay women have 'sex' differently, so no need to bring that up, again just pointing out the obvious). Lastly, the disproproportiantly high STD rates amongst gays, its a big tick in the 'being gay is illogical' box, and secondly it consumes such a large percentage of hospital care on such a minority. Everything about being gay is wrong, and its all self, and its based on lust, and it opens doors to warped viewpoints
 
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