I'm serious, SRS ...are you speaking as a sinner or are you speaking as someone who has attained righteousness?
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I'm serious, SRS ...are you speaking as a sinner or are you speaking as someone who has attained righteousness?
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brightmorningstar
Guest
To atomweaver,
The fact is SirRodneySpode is yet another of a seemingly endless line of Christians who come here out the Christian position as held by the vast majority of Christians. Jesus did speak out against sexual immorality and same sex sexual relations we see it and have cited and quoted the passages.
That others deny what these passages say and have none to offer themselves in support of the argument means the debate is mere evidence and denial.
Nor would it presumably for you that Jesus didnt speak out what Westboro Baptist church says, yet you seem convinced you are right.
The fact is SirRodneySpode is yet another of a seemingly endless line of Christians who come here out the Christian position as held by the vast majority of Christians. Jesus did speak out against sexual immorality and same sex sexual relations we see it and have cited and quoted the passages.
That others deny what these passages say and have none to offer themselves in support of the argument means the debate is mere evidence and denial.
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brightmorningstar
Guest
TO atomweaver,
Why would He do so to contradict His teaching that same sex sexual relations are wrong? If one doesnt believe what He said one could believe anything. Presumably under your logic He could have spoken out against gays just as much as defedn them, yet you chose to give a biased view only.
it is as He told the adulteress to go and sin no more, what if she was like some here who just ignored that and said Jesus never said anything of the sort?
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brightmorningstar
Guest
To KCKID,
How would that change the truth of the word of God and what Jesus Christ taught?
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JustMeSee
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- Feb 9, 2008
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I don't care what Jesus, Paul, Ringo, John, or George have to say one way or the other on the subjects of same gender sex and marriage. I am more interested in logical arguments than interpretations of religious texts.
Logically, all citizens should be afforded the same or equal rights under the law.
Logically, all citizens should be afforded the same or equal rights under the law.
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atomweaver
Senior Member
For the same reasons he "contradicted" His teaching that adultery was wrong.
*shrug* what if she wasn't? Your Christian mandate orders you not to sin. Fine. Don't sin. However, you are not the Sin Police. And the Bible doesn't order you to legislate against sin. Further, your American mandate as a citizen orders you to treat every fellow American equally under the law of the land. The Bible orders you to follow the law of the land. So follow it, already... Give all Americans equality under the law, not just the one's who's sins you can personally stomach...
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FlamingFemme
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The point that has been made to you over and over and over again is that according to the Bible, your Bible, the one you quote from incessantly, Jesus was never quoted as having taught 'that same sex sexual relations are wrong'. And unless you can prove otherwise (and I know you can't, 'cause I've read the Bible, and there are no red letters that say gay marriage is wrong), it clearly was not ever important enough for him to speak of explicitly, one way or the other. And, if it wasn't important enough for The Man Himself to say boo about, why on earth do you feel that it is important enough for you to go out of your way to persecute GLBT people?
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- Jan 27, 2004
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Jesus and God are One. If God said it then Jesus said it. For some reason people overlook what God the Father said and focus on what Jesus said. Jesus and God are in agreement in all things. If God said that man should not lie with man then it is safe to say that Jesus would agree with Him.
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In essence, those who oppose same-sex marriage are really just saying, I dont want people I dont like to have the same rights as me. As we can see from this thread, the common reason they dont like homosexuals is because of the teachings of religion.
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Then how do you reconcile Jesus letting go the adulterous woman? God said that she should be stoned to death.
Then again, based on what you say above ...if God said an adulterer should be stoned to death then Jesus said that an adulterer should be stoned to death because the two are actually one. Right? And, since the same two 'rule-givers' are actually one and the same (?) then Jesus can revoke such a rule at will ...is this what happened in this instance?
Is it really necessary to suspend all logic in order to be a 'true' believer?
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Then how do you reconcile Jesus letting go the adulterous woman? God said that she should be stoned to death.
Then again, based on what you say above ...if God said an adulterer should be stoned to death then Jesus said that an adulterer should be stoned to death because the two are actually one. Right? And, since the same two 'rule-givers' are actually one and the same (?) then Jesus can revoke such a rule at will ...is this what happened in this instance?
Is it really necessary to suspend all logic in order to be a 'true' believer?
Yes sure Jesus let the adulterous woman go, but He didnt say 'you can go now and return to your sinful ways'. NO! HE said, 'Go and sin no more'
Likewise if the gay person repents, the same answer would be said, 'Go and sin no more'.
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You missed the point.
God said, "Stone her."
Why didn't Jesus cast the first stone? He was without sin. And he would have approved of her stoning, since it is in the OT, and if God said it, Jesus said.
But Jesus said, "Neither to I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
Why did God condemn her, and Jesus not?
THAT"s the point. Not that Jesus told her that her sins were forgiven and to SIN NO MORE!!!!! It was that he didn't stone her, which is the penalty according to the OT. Why was she not stoned, following OT law?
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Why is the woman accused of adultery such a puzzle for so many Christians?
The woman is going to be killed. She is a pawn to see whether Jesus will disobey Roman law, and be arrested, or disobey OT law, and prove himself not the Son of God. And who is this done by? The people of the temple. Way to go, boys.
Jesus draws in the sand. Some suggest it is the sins of each of the accusers. He then says, "Whoever is without sin, cast the first stone." What is he saying? If you are God, if you are pure and holy, then you have the right to cast the first stone, to be her judge. All of them left.
The woman probably knew that Jesus was without sin, and could cast the first stone. He didn't. In fact, he sent the would be stoners away. Then he said, "Where are those who condemn you?" She said, "They have left." He said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more."
He didn't yell at her. He didn't scold her. She was just about to be killed. How would you feel, knowing that you are going to be hit with large stones until you are dead? Petrified? And the Saviour says, "where are all the people that condemned you? Neither do I condemn you." He was sent to save, not condemn. So, he forgave her sins, and said, "don't let it happen again." And probably smiled.
So, what do so many Christians take from that? "GO AND SIN NO MORE, YOU harlot!"
When my friend slights me, I say, "Ok. I forgive you. Don't do it again." Is that so hard to understand?
I'm not even sure if she had actually committed adultery. If she was innocent, do you think the men cared? Their goal was to trap Jesus, even if it meant killing a random peasant girl.
But what was her "sin"? Is it only a sin because "God says so"? God says a lot of things. If we are going to quote Leviticus, then eating shellfish and pork is and abomination, and people working on the Sabbath should be killed. But no, such Christians choose those verses that still "count" belonging to OTHER people, they claim.
If you are married, and your wife/husband has an affair, do you only care because it is "in the bible"? That's a child's answer. It's like saying that you have to eat vegetables because your parents said so. It creates mistrust in the spouse. It can destroy your marriage. It can lead to getting an STD, or the woman becoming pregnant, and really complicate your marriage.
That's what adultery does.
People say, "I don't sin" but then don't even honor the 10 Commandments. They say they are Christian, but then worship money, wealth, and status, and do anything to obtain it, waiting for Sunday to be obsolved, because their sins don't count, and they are forgiven. They say, oh my g_d!, not as a prayer, but taking G_d's name in vain, as if it were no big deal. They use it to curse each other to hell (g d you!), and think nothing of it, or hit their thumb with a hammer, and say Jesus Christ in anger.
Wouldn't you want your kids to yell out your name as a way of being angry? Use your name is such disrespect?
People work on the Sabbath. You are COMMANDED to take one day off. People work 7 days a week, because we don't have "a new convenant." Really? So, we can worship whomever we want, commit adultery, disrespect our parents, make idols and worship them, and lie at will, can we?
And covet? One is not to covet their neighbor's spouse, or their neighbor's property. You are not to enviously wish you had what another has.
And NO ONE does that. Do we acknowledge that even as a sin???? It's a COMMANDMENT.
So, someone brings up Leviticus, a book they don't even follow, except for 2 verses lifted out of context, to say, "look at me. I'm not having same-sex sex."
I'm sure God will greet you on Judgement Day and say, "Wow. Being straight, that must have been a struggle for you. But by the measure you judge, so shall you be Judged. This is you from the world, who judge others by the book of Leviticus. By that that book, you shall be judged, without respect of context or scripture, without reasoning, and without mercy, because I extended it to you, and you would not extend it to others.
In the meantime, rather than walking around Toronto, saying, "I shall not kill, I shall not kill, I shall not kill", I will be thinking, "I was hungry, and you fed me, for when you have done so to the least of these, you have done so to me", and live my life by serving God in active love, rather than patting myself on the back for what destruction I didn't do to others, which, as a Christian, should just be a given.
It's Christianity 101, so why is this concept, that one should "love your neighbor as yourself", met with such insisitence of being obtuse?
The woman is going to be killed. She is a pawn to see whether Jesus will disobey Roman law, and be arrested, or disobey OT law, and prove himself not the Son of God. And who is this done by? The people of the temple. Way to go, boys.
Jesus draws in the sand. Some suggest it is the sins of each of the accusers. He then says, "Whoever is without sin, cast the first stone." What is he saying? If you are God, if you are pure and holy, then you have the right to cast the first stone, to be her judge. All of them left.
The woman probably knew that Jesus was without sin, and could cast the first stone. He didn't. In fact, he sent the would be stoners away. Then he said, "Where are those who condemn you?" She said, "They have left." He said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more."
He didn't yell at her. He didn't scold her. She was just about to be killed. How would you feel, knowing that you are going to be hit with large stones until you are dead? Petrified? And the Saviour says, "where are all the people that condemned you? Neither do I condemn you." He was sent to save, not condemn. So, he forgave her sins, and said, "don't let it happen again." And probably smiled.
So, what do so many Christians take from that? "GO AND SIN NO MORE, YOU harlot!"
When my friend slights me, I say, "Ok. I forgive you. Don't do it again." Is that so hard to understand?
I'm not even sure if she had actually committed adultery. If she was innocent, do you think the men cared? Their goal was to trap Jesus, even if it meant killing a random peasant girl.
But what was her "sin"? Is it only a sin because "God says so"? God says a lot of things. If we are going to quote Leviticus, then eating shellfish and pork is and abomination, and people working on the Sabbath should be killed. But no, such Christians choose those verses that still "count" belonging to OTHER people, they claim.
If you are married, and your wife/husband has an affair, do you only care because it is "in the bible"? That's a child's answer. It's like saying that you have to eat vegetables because your parents said so. It creates mistrust in the spouse. It can destroy your marriage. It can lead to getting an STD, or the woman becoming pregnant, and really complicate your marriage.
That's what adultery does.
People say, "I don't sin" but then don't even honor the 10 Commandments. They say they are Christian, but then worship money, wealth, and status, and do anything to obtain it, waiting for Sunday to be obsolved, because their sins don't count, and they are forgiven. They say, oh my g_d!, not as a prayer, but taking G_d's name in vain, as if it were no big deal. They use it to curse each other to hell (g d you!), and think nothing of it, or hit their thumb with a hammer, and say Jesus Christ in anger.
Wouldn't you want your kids to yell out your name as a way of being angry? Use your name is such disrespect?
People work on the Sabbath. You are COMMANDED to take one day off. People work 7 days a week, because we don't have "a new convenant." Really? So, we can worship whomever we want, commit adultery, disrespect our parents, make idols and worship them, and lie at will, can we?
And covet? One is not to covet their neighbor's spouse, or their neighbor's property. You are not to enviously wish you had what another has.
And NO ONE does that. Do we acknowledge that even as a sin???? It's a COMMANDMENT.
So, someone brings up Leviticus, a book they don't even follow, except for 2 verses lifted out of context, to say, "look at me. I'm not having same-sex sex."
I'm sure God will greet you on Judgement Day and say, "Wow. Being straight, that must have been a struggle for you. But by the measure you judge, so shall you be Judged. This is you from the world, who judge others by the book of Leviticus. By that that book, you shall be judged, without respect of context or scripture, without reasoning, and without mercy, because I extended it to you, and you would not extend it to others.
In the meantime, rather than walking around Toronto, saying, "I shall not kill, I shall not kill, I shall not kill", I will be thinking, "I was hungry, and you fed me, for when you have done so to the least of these, you have done so to me", and live my life by serving God in active love, rather than patting myself on the back for what destruction I didn't do to others, which, as a Christian, should just be a given.
It's Christianity 101, so why is this concept, that one should "love your neighbor as yourself", met with such insisitence of being obtuse?
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I remember being on a forum where a Christian woman said, "Well, if there are homosexuals in heaven, my jaw is going to drop!!"
I said, "If you are sad, angry, or shocked that people are with you in heaven, you are probably going to be on the outside looking in, because you are to be fishers of men, not bouncers of heaven. You should want everyone to come to God, for themselves, for God, for unity of all. We are ALL God's children.
But you think that you have somehow "earned" your way in, and deserve it. So, you don't need a Saviour, don't acknowledge Christ, and so, are going to be saying, "ha ha, Beanie! You didn't make it in!" from the outside, and I will be looking through the gates sadly at you, asking you, as I am now, to put down your pride, your haughtiness, your self righteousness and condemnation, and take up humility and thankfulness, and the doors will swing wide open.
I said, "If you are sad, angry, or shocked that people are with you in heaven, you are probably going to be on the outside looking in, because you are to be fishers of men, not bouncers of heaven. You should want everyone to come to God, for themselves, for God, for unity of all. We are ALL God's children.
But you think that you have somehow "earned" your way in, and deserve it. So, you don't need a Saviour, don't acknowledge Christ, and so, are going to be saying, "ha ha, Beanie! You didn't make it in!" from the outside, and I will be looking through the gates sadly at you, asking you, as I am now, to put down your pride, your haughtiness, your self righteousness and condemnation, and take up humility and thankfulness, and the doors will swing wide open.
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and nobody mentions that by the time Jesus came around, the Rabbis had put so many roadblocks ahead of actually executing a person that it became almost impossible to carry it out.
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Polycarp1
Born-again Liberal Episcopalian
There are very explicit commandments in Jesus's own words as to what type of attitude we are to cultivate towards others, and the Pharisees (who were the Law-abiding Jews of the time, the 'pillars of the Temple') were held up as bad examples, as depictions of how NOT to behave.
And the story of the woman taken in adultery, the preeminent example of how Jesus forgave, is held up as condemnation -- the only word that some people can hear from it is "Go and sin no more." Paul Simon was right: "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."
My sins are many. The only 'right' I have to heaven is the free gift of God, purchased by Jesus on the Cross in agony. And He commands not to judge the sins of another, but to love and forgive, just as we have been loved and forgiven. What's so hard about that? Little children can learn it. Why can't we?
And the story of the woman taken in adultery, the preeminent example of how Jesus forgave, is held up as condemnation -- the only word that some people can hear from it is "Go and sin no more." Paul Simon was right: "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."
My sins are many. The only 'right' I have to heaven is the free gift of God, purchased by Jesus on the Cross in agony. And He commands not to judge the sins of another, but to love and forgive, just as we have been loved and forgiven. What's so hard about that? Little children can learn it. Why can't we?
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