Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

[Dharma Wheel]

To you anyway, the popularity or ethical code of a religion is separate from whether it is true or not.

Which is why people shouldn't just follow religion if they are looking for facts and is also the reason why Creationism is anti-scientific twaddle.

 

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

I am not talking about facts. We have many poor people. That is a fact. But the key question is WHY are they poor? Atheist has no answer to it. Buddhism should have a deep, systematic explanation to that.

The earth is round because the interior of the earth is hot. The moon is also round. But the moon was probably never hot enough to make itself into a round globe according to the current theory.

OBJECTION!
*slams desk, points index finger accusingly*
That statement is a contradiction of the truth!
Judge: Can you provide evidence to support your statement, Mr. Jazz?

(...Can I?)

-Impossible.
-Of course I can! *selects this option*

TAKE THAT!
Why is the Earth round?

 

[Penumbra]

Very good. Thank you. I assume you are talking about philosophical flourishing, but not material flourishing, because you emphasize rationality.

But this fact does not make sense. When a person reaches to his or her peak philosophical understanding, then all of a sudden, it vanished with the person. (unlike science) The philosophical wealth of the person could not even be passed on to the next generation. [books does not work!]

This is a waste to the extreme degree.

Philosophical wealth has the possibility of passing on to the next generation in the form of written works, other works, or memories of inspiration.

-Lyn

 

[SiderealExalt]

Which is why people shouldn't just follow religion if they are looking for facts and is also the reason why Creationism is anti-scientific twaddle.

True, though that wasn't why I was trying to point that out to the other poster. He didn't seem to understand the distinction. But watch out with the anti-Creationism stuff. Apparently you can get in trouble for saying that sort of stuff around here.

 

[juvenissun]

Intelligence does not prevent people from believing in absurdities. All it takes is a certain emotional attachment, or identification. History books are full of smart people believing the most absurd things about life, the universe, and everything.

So, how do you know if you are right? If you are not as smart as them?

 

[juvenissun]

To a certain extent, yes.



Perhaps it is waste, but I don't see why I should be bothered by this. I don't see why life should have to guarantee a complete lack of waste. Life does not make any less sense because people die and fail to pass on all of their wisdom. Indeed, this may be a blessing in disguise, since future generations won't be cheated out of the opportunity to develop their own wisdom.


eudaimonia,

Mark

OK, may be it is a waste. May be it is not. Right?

We know how could it be a waste. But do we know how might it not be a waste? So, whatever effort you put into your life will be ultimately worthwhile? Would that make more sense? I remembered you just mention the word of value: rational.

 

[juvenissun]

There is a vast difference between:
1) admitting one doesn't know the final truth while being humble about your beliefs even as you go through life with those beliefs, and

2) what you're proposing, believing something that you have no evidence for but makes you feel better because it claims to be absolute.

I did not say the blue text. I really meant the red text. A way to be humble is to examine other's belief, instead of reject it.

And, I don't think atheism has any belief. Any reasonable idea does not need any belief.

 

[juvenissun]

But I WAS. Either you have misread my original post or you are being deliberately facetious.


Because of the neglect of the rich. All the resources passed into the hands of a minority of people in the world and thus a majority of the Earth's population have been left economically poor. You do not need a religion to answer that.

Are you being serious?

You don't need any religion to answer the questions you have posed.

The Earth is round because of gravity. I do not know where you got this from.

We may give one hundred reasons to explain why are there poor people. Buddha saw all those reasons, when he was trying to figure out the reason of those reasons. Give one hundred reasons actually means not knowing the real reason. Buddha is wise. He can see all those surficial reasons.

 

[juvenissun]

Indeed, it is ridiculous. I would dare to say that the issue of poverty is answered with in a secular mindset; infact Economics is generally secular.

If the reason is so obvious, why can't we deal with it yet after thousands of years? It is so obvious that we did not find the real reason.

 

[juvenissun]

Philosophical wealth has the possibility of passing on to the next generation in the form of written works, other works, or memories of inspiration.

-Lyn

You try to read one or two. You know it does not work that way.

 

[Wicked Willow]

So, how do you know if you are right? If you are not as smart as them?

Because I can see where they went wrong - history provides us with a sense of hindsight, you know? You needn't be the smartest person alive to figure out just how gravely the geocentrists were mistaken, for example, or how fatally misleading the ideals of Leninist Communism turned out to be.
The same holds true for the Abrahamaic religions, in my opinion: the discoveries of the last 200+ years have pretty much dug the grave for traditional conceptions of a universe ruled by a personal, supernatural deity as described by the Bible and Qur'an, and the fundamentalist movements that came into existence in the 20th century are but the death throes of an ideology that has outlived its day.

 

[dewaddict84]

OBJECTION!
*slams desk, points index finger accusingly*
That statement is a contradiction of the truth!
Judge: Can you provide evidence to support your statement, Mr. Jazz?

(...Can I?)

-Impossible.
-Of course I can! *selects this option*

TAKE THAT!
Why is the Earth round?

I say! I like the cut of your jib!

 

[Eudaimonist]

So, whatever effort you put into your life will be ultimately worthwhile?

I'll let you in on a secret. It is one of the greatest secrets of all time...

The moments of one's life are valuable-in-themselves, not merely as a means to some infinitely far off future.

The value of life is not diminished because life is in finite supply. Life is valuable every step along the way. It is the moments of one's life that are worthwhile, without respect to the future. The value of these moments are not erased because they become part of the past. They happened! Nothing can change that.

For human beings, what is "ultimate" is within their lives. That is their existence. That is their perspective. That is their context for meaning and value.

People won't exist after death to cry: "Boo hoo! My nonexistence has no meaning!" While one can imagine such a perspective, it is not a valid perspective. It is an entirely meaningless perspective.

As long as someone is alive, life is worthwhile. And after one has died, their non-existence will not matter.

And it may be a good thing that life is finite! Life becomes more precious that way. To make something of one's life becomes more urgent. If someone were immortal, their motto could easily be: "Always put off until tomorrow what does not have to be done today." Why not put off something until next year, or next century, or next millenium, or never?

So, be happy that you are a finite being.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[hikersong]

I'll let you in on a secret. It is one of the greatest secrets of all time...

The moments of one's life are valuable-in-themselves, not merely as a means to some infinitely far off future.

The value of life is not diminished because life is in finite supply. Life is valuable every step along the way. It is the moments of one's life that are worthwhile, without respect to the future. The value of these moments are not erased because they become part of the past. They happened! Nothing can change that.

For human beings, what is "ultimate" is within their lives. That is their existence. That is their perspective. That is their context for meaning and value.

People won't exist after death to cry: "Boo hoo! My nonexistence has no meaning!" While one can imagine such a perspective, it is not a valid perspective. It is an entirely meaningless perspective.

As long as someone is alive, life is worthwhile. And after one has died, their non-existence will not matter.

And it may be a good thing that life is finite! Life becomes more precious that way. To make something of one's life becomes more urgent. If someone were immortal, their motto could easily be: "Always put off until tomorrow what does not have to be done today." Why not put off something until next year, or next century, or next millenium, or never?

So, be happy that you are a finite being.


eudaimonia,

Mark

This is the best life affirming expression of atheism that I have ever heard. You should get it copywrited.

Even a wishy-washy agnostic like me could get converted by that.

 

[Dharma Wheel]

We may give one hundred reasons to explain why are there poor people. Buddha saw all those reasons, when he was trying to figure out the reason of those reasons. Give one hundred reasons actually means not knowing the real reason. Buddha is wise. He can see all those surficial reasons.

I certainly know about the Buddhist take on poverty and want its cause is (look at my icon and board alias), however, you do not need the teachings of Buddha - or any religious leader- to realize the causes of poverty as economics can easily explain it in a secular fashion in agreement with the Buddha, although secularists may not know this.

If you want a Buddhist perspective of poverty, you need to look no further than the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.Poverty like all things is caused by craving (Taṇh&#257 which is caused by ignorance (Avidy&#257 and is suffering (Dukkha):

"This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this is craving which leads to a renewed existencehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhava, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."

The fact that poverty exists, highlights the falsehood and harmful nature of ignorance and craving. Craving is merely suffering (dukkha) The Awakened One says about suffering (dukkha) which poverty is a part of:

"Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion and delight, relishing now here and now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming."

 

[juvenissun]

I'll let you in on a secret. It is one of the greatest secrets of all time...

The moments of one's life are valuable-in-themselves, not merely as a means to some infinitely far off future.

The value of life is not diminished because life is in finite supply. Life is valuable every step along the way. It is the moments of one's life that are worthwhile, without respect to the future. The value of these moments are not erased because they become part of the past. They happened! Nothing can change that.

For human beings, what is "ultimate" is within their lives. That is their existence. That is their perspective. That is their context for meaning and value.

People won't exist after death to cry: "Boo hoo! My nonexistence has no meaning!" While one can imagine such a perspective, it is not a valid perspective. It is an entirely meaningless perspective.

As long as someone is alive, life is worthwhile. And after one has died, their non-existence will not matter.

And it may be a good thing that life is finite! Life becomes more precious that way. To make something of one's life becomes more urgent. If someone were immortal, their motto could easily be: "Always put off until tomorrow what does not have to be done today." Why not put off something until next year, or next century, or next millenium, or never?

So, be happy that you are a finite being.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes. The moment of life is important. But the value of that moment is in question. Everyone has his or her "moment", but everyone's value at that moment is different. A thief will live a most valuable moment when he stole something the most valuable.

In order to value the moment of life, one still need to refer the value to some "ever-lasting" standard.

 

[Penumbra]

You try to read one or two. You know it does not work that way.

Read one or two what?

In order to value the moment of life, one still need to refer the value to some "ever-lasting" standard.

Possibly for you in your opinion, but not everyone. Trying to tell someone who is happy, acknowledges life's temporary nature, and who finds meaning in life, that their life is meaningless, is like shouting insults at a brick wall.

-Lyn

 

[JGG]

Yes. The moment of life is important. But the value of that moment is in question. Everyone has his or her "moment", but everyone's value at that moment is different. A thief will live a most valuable moment when he stole something the most valuable.

In order to value the moment of life, one still need to refer the value to some "ever-lasting" standard.

What!? No, I don't think you got the point (or I really don't get yours). Let's take a contractor who charges $140 an hour for his services. Every hour he works is worth $140 to himself and a client. It's value doesn't change depending on the quality of work he does. The point is that life is valuable in unto itself regardless of what is done with it. My life isn't worth less when I go to a movie than it is when I give a major presentation.

Your theory also supposes that at a particular moment my life could be more valuable while I am giving a major presentation, than a firefighter who at the same moment is taking a shower. To me this seems ridiculous.

 

[juvenissun]

Read one or two what?


Possibly for you in your opinion, but not everyone. Trying to tell someone who is happy, acknowledges life's temporary nature, and who finds meaning in life- that their life is meaningless is like shouting insults at a brick wall.

-Lyn

I will never say the temporary value of life is meaningless. In fact, it is very meaningful. I am only saying that these (many) temporary meaningful life moments ARE pointing toward a more permanent meaning of life. They do not go away from the person when the person die. Atheist only see the former part, but stubbornly deny the latter part. I do not know why.

 

[Penumbra]

What!? No, I don't think you got the point (or I really don't get yours). Let's take a contractor who charges $140 an hour for his services. Every hour he works is worth $140 to himself and a client. It's value doesn't change depending on the quality of work he does. The point is that life is valuable in unto itself regardless of what is done with it. My life isn't worth less when I go to a movie than it is when I give a major presentation.

Your theory also supposes that at a particular moment my life could be more valuable while I am giving a major presentation, than a firefighter who at the same moment is taking a shower. To me this seems ridiculous.

I agree with the concept that all of life's moments have a certain value in themselves, not just as a means to a future.

But I don't agree that life is valuable in unto itself regardless of what is done with it, or that each moment of life is of equal value to each other moment of life.

By what means or reason do you believe that, if I may ask?

-Lyn