The Right to Create an Office

[JimfromOhio]

Moses, back at Sinai, had set before Israel a great quest. He charged them to walk on with their God to become a 'kingdom of priests, and a holy nation'. (Exodus 19:6). This very same charge and destiny, to become 'a royal priesthood and a holy nation', was laid out for the Church by our Apostle Peter. (1Pet.2:9). They basically adopted that thought and used "Nation" from the greek word "Ethnos". Strongs defines Ethnos as a multitude associated or living together as a company, troop, swarm. A multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus the human family a tribe, nation, people group (Culture).

Every Christian is a citizen of heaven and to that sacred citizenship even though each Christian lives in a sinful world and sin will happen. Christians have a dual citizenship however earth is a sinful place while Heaven is beautiful and sinless that we are to remember that we are citizens of heaven even though we live in a foreign world. We CAN'T live here on earth as we will in Heaven. we are in Christ His position is our position, His privilege is our privilege, His possessions are our possessions, and His practice our practice. We are significant not because of who we are, but because of who we are in Christ. As Paul said, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

People have stopped saying how they voted.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Nation A stands on hill A.

Nation B stands on hill B.

Nation A has Priests within her, nation B does not.

When someone speaks of a "nation of Priests" he is identifying the nation of whom he speaks. He is not implying that every person in that nation is a Priest.

Priests worshiping before God happend then and it happens in eternity... witness the book of Revelation.

Are we to understand that we are not to have Priests in between? How likely is that really?

Where do these Priests in Revelation come from? It tells us they come from the great tribulation.

The great tribulation is yet to come, wouldn't we agree?

If Priests are not supposed to exist now... then how did they get into the great tribulation?

Forgive me...

Nah........that is already passed thank God

Daniel 12:1 And in the time, that, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation/qliyewv <2347> becomes, which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that. [Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

Matt 24:21 "For then shall be Tribulation/qliyiV <2347> Great, the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming [Dan 12:1/Rev 7:14]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7358354/
End of Tribulation is near! Wrath about to begin!

 

[Rebekah30]

People have stopped saying how they voted.

Forgive me...

You only had a yay and nay option, not a I don't know or it depends. I didn't vote.

 

[Standing Up]

God agreed? Eisegesis.

It is improper to put two things together like that and say they are related. There really isn't anything to suggest that God was not going to create the Priesthood until the people were afraid.

That's Eisegesis, it's contrived.

In fact, I will go one step further and say that The Church has never taught the idea. Can you show me a homily or a sermon on the subject? Anything from the ECF's?

Forgive me...

There were no priests of the Most High of the nation when they came out of Egypt. The whole nation was to be a kingdom of priests with God as the King. But they refuse to hear His voice. How will He rule if they won't hear?

There was the Melchizedek priesthood and other priests like Moses' father in law, but none in the nation who came out of Egypt. Just like us. No priests of the Most High, except for Jesus Christ our High Priest of Melchizedek priesthood. We too are asked by Him to hear His voice, but we have come to Mt. Zion not Sinai.

 

[Standing Up]

Moses, back at Sinai, had set before Israel a great quest. He charged them to walk on with their God to become a 'kingdom of priests, and a holy nation'. (Exodus 19:6). This very same charge and destiny, to become 'a royal priesthood and a holy nation', was laid out for the Church by our Apostle Peter. (1Pet.2:9). They basically adopted that thought and used "Nation" from the greek word "Ethnos". Strongs defines Ethnos as a multitude associated or living together as a company, troop, swarm. A multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus the human family a tribe, nation, people group (Culture).

Every Christian is a citizen of heaven and to that sacred citizenship even though each Christian lives in a sinful world and sin will happen. Christians have a dual citizenship however earth is a sinful place while Heaven is beautiful and sinless that we are to remember that we are citizens of heaven even though we live in a foreign world. We CAN'T live here on earth as we will in Heaven. we are in Christ His position is our position, His privilege is our privilege, His possessions are our possessions, and His practice our practice. We are significant not because of who we are, but because of who we are in Christ. As Paul said, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

Understood. The point under discussion is what happened when the people refused to hear the voice of God because of fear/could not bear?

God established the Levitical priesthood and called the rest the children of Israel.

Nearly all of the NT churches use the OT model as you point out. BUT, the model now is Christ Jesus the High Priest, the King of the kingdom of priests that believers are. We choose to hear HIS VOICE. We have come to Zion. Not Sinai of fear, trembling, and intermediaries.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Standing Up,

Our conversation is going nowhere. It doesn't concern the OP, and its contrived.

Back to the Bishops having the right to create an office.

Forgive me...

 

[Rebekah30]

I concur, back to the OP


I had to so everyone else does too.
I say that with respect to all.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I concur, back to the OP


I had to so everyone else does too.
I say that with respect to all.

Bless you!

Still haven't voted?

Forgive me...

 

[JimfromOhio]

I voted "NO"

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Concerning the OP.

Can anyone give a short answer as to why the Bishops would not have the right?

Forgive me...

 

[christianmomof3]

The book of Acts (14:23), and also 1 Tim. (ch. 3) and 1 Pet. (ch. 5) do show us that there were overseers or elders appointed by the apostles for the churches to care for leading and shepherding the saints. 1 Tim ch. 3 also shows us that they had deacons who were serving ones under the leadership of the overseers or elders. Beyond that there were no other "offices" mentioned in the churches and there was no "heirarchical system" laid out or commanded in the Bible.

It is true that such a system did begin during the first century of the church, but that does not mean that it was what the Lord wanted. In fact, looking at the verses in Revelation about the Nicolaitians, we see that such a system separating clergy and laity is actually repugnant to the Lord.

Rev. 2:6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Nicolaism (also Nicholaism, Nicolationism, or Nicolaitanism) is a Christian heresy whose adherents are called nicolaitans, nicolaitanes, or nicolaites. Nico means "conquer" in Greek, Laitan refers to lay people, or laity, hence the word could be taken to mean "Lay conquerors" or Conquerors of the Lay People;

Cyrus Scofield, in his Notes on the Bible, following dispensationalist thought, suggests that the Seven Letters in Revelation foretell the various eras of Christian history, and that "Nicolaitans" "refers to the earliest form of the notion of a priestly order, or 'clergy,' which later divided an equal brotherhood into 'priests' and 'laity.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaism



In the New Testament, God has returned to His original intention that He has made all believers in Christ priests as seen in the following verses:

Rev. 1:6 And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen.
1 Pet. 2:5 You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession, so that you may tell out the of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

 

[Rebekah30]

Bless you!

Still haven't voted?

Forgive me...

No not yet.


Like I said they had the right, if the need was there. That would be a yay if I knew the need was there.

Best I can do at this time.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The book of Acts (14:23), and also 1 Tim. (ch. 3) and 1 Pet. (ch. 5) do show us that there were overseers or elders appointed by the apostles for the churches to care for leading and shepherding the saints. 1 Tim ch. 3 also shows us that they had deacons who were serving ones under the leadership of the overseers or elders. Beyond that there were no other "offices" mentioned in the churches and there was no "heirarchical system" laid out or commanded in the Bible.

It is true that such a system did begin during the first century of the church, but that does not mean that it was what the Lord wanted. In fact, looking at the verses in Revelation about the Nicolaitians, we see that such a system separating clergy and laity is actually repugnant to the Lord.

Rev. 2:6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Nicolaism (also Nicholaism, Nicolationism, or Nicolaitanism) is a Christianheresy whose adherents are called nicolaitans, nicolaitanes, or nicolaites. Nico means "conquer" in Greek, Laitan refers to lay people, or laity, hence the word could be taken to mean "Lay conquerors" or Conquerors of the Lay People;

Cyrus Scofield, in his Notes on the Bible, following dispensationalist thought, suggests that the Seven Letters in Revelation foretell the various eras of Christian history, and that "Nicolaitans" "refers to the earliest form of the notion of a priestly order, or 'clergy,' which later divided an equal brotherhood into 'priests' and 'laity.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaism



In the New Testament, God has returned to His original intention that He has made all believers in Christ priests as seen in the following verses:

Rev. 1:6 And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen.
1 Pet. 2:5 You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession, so that you may tell out the of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The information about the Nicolaitan's is totally incorrect.

Forgive me...

 

[christianmomof3]

The information about the Nicolaitan's is totally incorrect.

Forgive me...

How are you feeling?
I hope you are doing well.
My 7 year old daughter has a stomach virus or flu or something - she was up at 4 am this morning throwing up and is now running fever.


As far as the information about the Nicolaitans - I did not expect you would agree with it, but what about the other verses and examples from the Bible?

As far as your original question - who would give "rights" to bishops (which I think is the word "overseers")?
The church is the Body of Christ.
He is the Head of it.
Paul showed us that Christ speaks to us and acts through the many redeemed and regenerated members of His Body.
The Bible is accepted by most Christians as the inspired word of God.
Other "Traditions" are not accepted by all Christians as being directed or inspired by God.

I would think the only One who could give any "rights" would be the Lord Himself and according to the Bible, He desires for all of His redeemed and regenerated believers to be a nation of priests - we all should be those who live Christ and dispense Him to others. The priesthood should not be an "office" for only a few select men.
We should all live as priests to our God.

 

[Rebekah30]

How are you feeling?
I hope you are doing well.
My 7 year old daughter has a stomach virus or flu or something - she was up at 4 am this morning throwing up and is now running fever.


As far as the information about the Nicolaitans - I did not expect you would agree with it, but what about the other verses and examples from the Bible?

As far as your original question - who would give "rights" to bishops (which I think is the word "overseers")?
The church is the Body of Christ.
He is the Head of it.
Paul showed us that Christ speaks to us and acts through the many redeemed and regenerated members of His Body.
The Bible is accepted by most Christians as the inspired word of God.
Other "Traditions" are not accepted by all Christians as being directed or inspired by God.

I would think the only One who could give any "rights" would be the Lord Himself and according to the Bible, He desires for all of His redeemed and regenerated believers to be a nation of priests - we all should be those who live Christ and dispense Him to others. The priesthood should not be an "office" for only a few select men.
We should all live as priests to our God.

CM expressed what I say as well

Praying for you daughter CM

 

[Thekla]

The book of Acts (14:23), and also 1 Tim. (ch. 3) and 1 Pet. (ch. 5) do show us that there were overseers or elders appointed by the apostles for the churches to care for leading and shepherding the saints. 1 Tim ch. 3 also shows us that they had deacons who were serving ones under the leadership of the overseers or elders. Beyond that there were no other "offices" mentioned in the churches and there was no "heirarchical system" laid out or commanded in the Bible.

It is true that such a system did begin during the first century of the church, but that does not mean that it was what the Lord wanted. In fact, looking at the verses in Revelation about the Nicolaitians, we see that such a system separating clergy and laity is actually repugnant to the Lord.

Rev. 2:6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Nicolaism (also Nicholaism, Nicolationism, or Nicolaitanism) is a Christianheresy whose adherents are called nicolaitans, nicolaitanes, or nicolaites. Nico means "conquer" in Greek, Laitan refers to lay people, or laity, hence the word could be taken to mean "Lay conquerors" or Conquerors of the Lay People;

Cyrus Scofield, in his Notes on the Bible, following dispensationalist thought, suggests that the Seven Letters in Revelation foretell the various eras of Christian history, and that "Nicolaitans" "refers to the earliest form of the notion of a priestly order, or 'clergy,' which later divided an equal brotherhood into 'priests' and 'laity.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaism



In the New Testament, God has returned to His original intention that He has made all believers in Christ priests as seen in the following verses:

Rev. 1:6 And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen.
1 Pet. 2:5 You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession, so that you may tell out the of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Absent historical references, and given an additional reference to the Nikolatians several verses later (around 15), one is hard pressed to derive a clear reference to such a system (a sort of elitism) being referred to in Revelation. Why wouldn't it be equally likely to posit that the term "Nikolaitans" means the 'people conquered' - indicating a usurpation of a "proper order" of some sort. In fact, in the first reference, it is said there a Nikolaitians among them. Is the among in reference to a small community (ie, a house Church)? If that is the case, it seems unlikely that this is explicitly a reference to an "elitist priesthood". In the second reference, it is said that there is a "small thing" against them - Nikolaitians. Again, iirc, these are "among" them - not all of them. The question again is - are we talking about a large Church community, many communities, or a small one (house Church).

In addition, why not derive teachings from the etymology of NT names in general ? As before, Nikodemos means nearly the same (demos meaning people, from whence we get the term democracy) - and Stephen means "crown", etc. Assuming that Revelation was authored by John, was he not again capable of adding (in reference to certain terms) "being interpreted as", as he did in the Gospel ?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

How are you feeling?
I hope you are doing well.
My 7 year old daughter has a stomach virus or flu or something - she was up at 4 am this morning throwing up and is now running fever.


As far as the information about the Nicolaitans - I did not expect you would agree with it, but what about the other verses and examples from the Bible?

As far as your original question - who would give "rights" to bishops (which I think is the word "overseers")?
The church is the Body of Christ.
He is the Head of it.
Paul showed us that Christ speaks to us and acts through the many redeemed and regenerated members of His Body.
The Bible is accepted by most Christians as the inspired word of God.
Other "Traditions" are not accepted by all Christians as being directed or inspired by God.

I would think the only One who could give any "rights" would be the Lord Himself and according to the Bible, He desires for all of His redeemed and regenerated believers to be a nation of priests - we all should be those who live Christ and dispense Him to others. The priesthood should not be an "office" for only a few select men.
We should all live as priests to our God.

I'm doing better... thanks for asking.

Sorry to hear about your daughter. Make the sign of the cross over her for me.

If you want to know the truth about Deacon Nicolas and his followers I will be glad to share the story. It's quite ugly and not for young ears.

He was a former Pagan who worshiped with the Romans. Fornication was at the center of the scandal. Enough said.

How do I know this? Surely it's proper to ask that... Well, unfortunately, Deacon Nicolas was of The Church of Antioch, the Church that I was baptized into, and am studying under.

I hope you understand that I am not arguing against the priesthood of believers. We know this to be true. It is the Orthodox teaching.

Bear with me, I'm typing out a text from the Orthodox Study Bible and will have it ready to post shortly.

I hope that it will explain better than my feeble attempt.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

From the Orthodox Christian Study Bible:

THE FOUR "ORDERS" IN CHURCH GOVERNMENT

The New Testament teaches that all four "orders" which form the government of the Church - laity, deacons, presbyters and bishops - are necessary to the proper functioning of the body of Christ. All four are clearly visible in Paul's first letter to Timothy.

1. The laity are also called "saints" (Rom 1:7; 2Co 1:1; 1Ti 5:10), the "faithful" (Eph 1:1), and "brethren" (Col 1:2). The laity (Gr. laos) are the people of God, the "priesthood" (1 Pt 2:4-10). Technically the term "laity" includes the clergy, though in our day the word usually refers to those in the Church who are not ordained. It is from among the laity that other three orders emerge.

2. The deacons, literally “servants,” are ordained to serve the Church and must meet high qualifications (1Ti 3:8-13). The apostles were the first to take on the service task of deacons, and when the workload became too great they called for “seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business” (Acts 6:3). Besides serving the material needs of the people, deacons occupy a crucial role in the liturgical life of the Church.

3. The presbyters, or elders, are visible throughout the New Testament. Their ministry from the start was to “rule,” “labor in the word,” and teach true “doctrine” (1 Ti 5:17) in the local congregation. Paul appointed elders in every church” (Acts 14:23) and later instructed his apostolic apprentice, Titus, to do the same in Crete (Tts 1:5). From the word “presbyter” came the shorter form “prest,” which finally became “priest”. In no way is the ordained Christian priesthood seen as a throwback to or a reenacting of the Old Testament priesthood. Rather, joined to Christ who is our High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek” (Heb 5:6,10), the Orthodox priest is likewise a minister of a new covenant that supersedes the old.

4. The bishop is the “overseer” of the congregation and clergy in a given area. Often the terms “bishop” and “elder” are used interchangeably in the New Testament (Acts 20:17, 28), with the bishop being the leader of the elders. The qualifications for bishop listed in 1 Timothy 3:17 and Titus 1:7-9 underscore this role. Nonetheless, the bishopric is a specific office both in the New Testament and in the early Church. The Twelve were the first to hold this office (in Acts 1:20 “office” could literally be translated “bishopric”) and they in turn consecrated other bishops to follow them. For example, Timothy and Titus are clearly of a separate order from that of elder (see 1Ti 5:17-22; Tts 1:5). Early records show James was bishop of Jerusalem by AD 49 and functioned accordingly at the first council there (Acts 15:13-22). Peter is on record as the first bishop of Antioch prior to AD 53, and later first bishop of Rome, where he was martyred about AD 65.

Perhaps the strongest early reference outside the New Testament to the presence of the four orders in Church government occurs in the writings of Ignatius, bishop of Antioch from AD67-107, the very heart of the New Testament era. To the church at Philadelphia (see Rev 3:7-13) he writes of “Christians [laity] at one with the bishop and the presbyters and the deacons”.

In the Orthodox Church, authority is resident in all four orders, with the bishop providing the center of unity. His authority is not over the Church but within the Church. He is an icon of Jesus Christ, “the Shepherd and Overseer [lit., bishop] of your souls” (1 Pt 2:25).

Church leadership does not consist of one or more of the orders functioning without the others. Rather the Church, with Christ as Head, is conducted like a symphony orchestra, a family, the body of Christ, where all the members in the given offices work together as the dwelling place of the Holy Trinity.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Perhaps the strongest early reference outside the New Testament to the presence of the four orders in Church government occurs in the writings of Ignatius, bishop of Antioch from AD67-107, the very heart of the New Testament era.

Did Ignatius write anything on the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7270786/#post51683566

Just curious as I view that event as the one showing in Revelation

Matt 24:19 "Woe yet to those in belly having and to those suckling in those the days!
20 Be ye praying yet that no may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638) the flight of ye of winter neither a Sabbath".

The Destruction of Jerusalem

.............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival..................

....... This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding