Met. Jonah of the OCA on American jurisdictional unity

[Joshua G.]

EDIT:

Nevermind. Macarius' post 99 said it all.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Proto, My point was not to accuse the Metropolitan of anything. I was only taking him at his word. He said that he apologizes for some uncharitable things he said (I don't even have an opinion as to what exactly that was, I bearly remember the speech). Orthodoxy suggested that really what he was doing was protecting the flock. My point is regardless of what he was "really" doing, I believe he is a sincere man (from anything I can tell) and that he wouldn't say apologize insincerely. An insinsere apology would be my asking you to forgive me for doing X to you while I (sercretly) believe that I never did X or that X was justified. THAT would be a game of polity or politics. A sincere apology would be my saying sorry for X and truly regretting having done X believing it was an unjustified action. The latter takes the will of a truly humble man and I believe that is what Metropolitan Jonah is.

The Metropolitan asked the EP for forgiveness for something he had done. I feel quite confident that the Metropolitan did this because he truly regretted any offense he committed against the EP and, by his own words, regrets something he said (I don't knwo what that is, again, I am just taking the man at his word)... otherwise the apology would be empty.

You're not offended by anything I said ProtoE, but by what you percieved me as having said. I don't think that he was playing a game of politics, and I said that. It was sincere, it was not a political move and it should be left at that. That was my entire point.

ORTHODOXY USA:
It seems you took my post more personally that I intended. And I can see why. I really was just using you as an example of what all of us do. I've done it before in forums. The fact is, we all know someone who we feel or know to be "in the know". Like, "I spoke to my priest who is good friends with the bishop and he says..." or "I've been following this closely, reading articles, keeping up in the latest news and parish closings, and so on. It's evident that..." What you say or know to be true MAY indeed be true. However, regardless of all of the little behind-the-scenes facts (giving insight into the greater intentions of this or that bishop) that you or I may "know", you and I cannot possibly understand the BIG picture. We just can't until we are in the shoes of the Bishops of those who directly aid him in actual decision-making. And NONE of us are charged with making those decisions nor are we held accountable for them.

It's a different story with our government because in a democracy we are, supposedly, the ones who rule and we elect representives. So, it is totally our business to make educated guesses about the intentions of our polititians when something smells. We may be wrong in the end, but that's the hard part about living in a democracy (it's a LOT of accountability in the end.. which should kind of scare us spiritually speaking). Fortunately, the Church is not a democracy, but a theocracy and God has charged certain men with making administrative decisions... not us. Surely we are used to informed... but they are more than layity in special robes. This is good... you and I don't have to concern ourselves with the "behind the scenes". THEY DO. We don't have to look for the "writing on the wall". They do. We will never have to answer for the US not having on Jurisdiction except in terms of us holding grudges against our brothers and sisters in other jurisdictions (adn I don't think any of us here in TAW do that). THEY WILL (according to God's will).

We are charged with obeying our bishops and loving and respecting ALL bishops. And regardless of how my Patriarch or your Metropolitan may feel about the EP, that isn't ours to worry about. Neither of us are being asked by our bishops to assume ANYTHING about any bishop. Just to go to Church, fast and love and pray for all of them (In the antiochian prayerbook it says something like "Lord, be mindful of Patriarch/Metropolitan ____, bishop ____ and all the bishops of the Orthodox" (and I know you personally have no problem with this, I am just pointing out this truth since it is pertinent). Is this not a blessing?

Joshua

Joshua,

I made no mention of understanding "the big picture". I said that I had read certain letters that Metropolitan Jonah was refering to. They are in the public domain and you can read them too. Not that you should want to, it was quite ugly. The fact is that someone who wrote a letter used some unfortunate language to describe the Churches in America. Metropolitian Jonah was referencing one letter in particular, without calling the author by name. I had read the letter so I knew what he was refering to.

Do you want the link to the letters so you can read them? Most all of them have been posted and discussed here... http://ocanews.org/index.html

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Here is a copy of the email that I sent out on April 7th. I am sure you can understand why I have asked to no longer be included in the updates.

Forgive me...

Gentlemen,

My last email didn't come across as I intended. After reading it in a reply I beg you to please allow me to rephrase. It was reactionary and far too short to be useful.

It is my humble opinion that these things are happening at a level where I have no influence whatsoever. If it is true that "horrible things" are being said about us, by those who claim to love us, then I would rather remain ignorant of the facts. I have been happy in my childlike ignorance. The knowledge has done nothing but darken my heart. Nothing good has been found in it. I deem therefore, that it cannot be of the Lord. In so, I reject it as stupidity and calamity. It is my desire to not even allow the thoughts.

Gentlemen, What a Lent it has been! Please allow for the obvious ramblings of my currently medicated states.

I meant no offense.

Forgive me...

​

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

BTW~ Joshua,

The entire Church is charged with upholding the canon. The layity, and the clergy. Bishops and Clergy are servents of The Church, when they are wrong it is the layity that is charged with correcting the situation. You should know this from the history of our Churches.

Forgive me...

 

[Michael G]

EC I went through the thread and gave you a major rep boost for all of your insightful posts!

 

[E.C.]

BTW~ Joshua,

The entire Church is charged with upholding the canon. The layity, and the clergy. Bishops and Clergy are servents of The Church, when they are wrong it is the layity that is charged with correcting the situation. You should know this from the history of our Churches.

Forgive me...

That is true. Remember the Council of Florence.

 

[E.C.]

EC I went through the thread and gave you a major rep boost for all of your insightful posts!

You only repped a mere fool with his foolish idealistic ways of viewing the world around him.

Thank you.

 

[Michael G]

You only repped a mere fool with his foolish idealistic ways of viewing the world around him.

Thank you.

You are welcome.

 

[Anhelyna]

You only repped a mere fool with his foolish idealistic ways of viewing the world around him.

Thank you.

I know that was to Michael - but it's these mere fools ' with idealistic ways of viewing the world round them ' who eventually cause changes to happen.

 

[Michael G]

I know that was to Michael - but it's these mere fools ' with idealistic ways of viewing the world round them ' who eventually cause changes to happen.

I know this sounds totally un-Orthodox, but this is once case in which change is needed. The EP needs to change his view of the world and bring it in line with Orthodox teaching and practice and needs to change his attitude toward the OCA and get over whatever personal motives he has for the North American Church.

 

[Joshua G.]

Joshua,

I made no mention of understanding "the big picture". I said that I had read certain letters that Metropolitan Jonah was refering to. They are in the public domain and you can read them too. Not that you should want to, it was quite ugly. The fact is that someone who wrote a letter used some unfortunate language to describe the Churches in America. Metropolitian Jonah was referencing one letter in particular, without calling the author by name. I had read the letter so I knew what he was refering to.

Do you want the link to the letters so you can read them? Most all of them have been posted and discussed here... Orthodox Christians for Accountability

Forgive me...

Hey orthodoxy,

Thanks for the link. I'll take your advice, though, and not check it out. The bishops can deal with that.

I know you made no mention of the big picture. That was kind of my point in a way. You and others know about little facts here and there. Who said this or that. Some of it is based on letters in the public domain, some is based on coffee talk with the priest. But none of that matters... at all. It matters for the bishops to know... but it really doesn't matter for us. Because what matters IS the big picture which you or I canNOT grasp (impossible) and fortunately, we don't have to because it's not ours to grasp.

Joshua

 

[Joshua G.]

BTW~ Joshua,

The entire Church is charged with upholding the canon. The layity, and the clergy. Bishops and Clergy are servents of The Church, when they are wrong it is the layity that is charged with correcting the situation. You should know this from the history of our Churches.

Forgive me...

With all due respect (and I really do mean that brother, not just as a cliché), I don't agree with this in all circumstances, and this is one of them that I don't believe you and I are 'charged' with upholding. Go back to Macarius' post #99 and that explains exactly why I see this as different and not a matter of defending THE Faith.

I believe someone (you?) in another post, refers to the Council of Florence as an example. Keeping the content and reasoning in Macarius' post in mind, while I do agree that Florence is a good example of what you are referring to in your comment above, I do not believe this situation is analogous.

By the way, you have not offended me. I have nothing to forgive you for. This is an internet conversation. Very rarely have I have taken forum discussions seriously enough to affect my feelings after I click the x in the top right-hand corner. I discuss things here because they keep me current on issues, I enjoy discussion in general and I learn useful stuff at least every... ten times I visit . it also allows me to organize my thoughts, review them, test them and because of forums and discussions about issues, I have been able to explain aspects of the faith better to non-orthodox in real-world conversations. So... you would have to get PRETTY darn personal and blatently rude and then you might offend me. But I know everyone is different in a forum than in real life

God bless you brother,

Joshua

Joshua

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Dear Joshua,

Please show me a canonical example of an auxilary Bishop. Please show me where a Bishop has the right to "not be held accountable" for his actions. Please show me where any Bishop was able to deny the layity the right of fiscal accoutability.

Your ideals lean heavily toward the way of Rome, with a "top down" approach to governing. That does not belong here.

I offer in proof of my point the word "AXIOS"! This is from the Layity.

Forgive me...

 

[E.C.]

I know this sounds totally un-Orthodox, but this is once case in which change is needed. The EP needs to change his view of the world and bring it in line with Orthodox teaching and practice and needs to change his attitude toward the OCA and get over whatever personal motives he has for the North American Church.

If I could ever find this one speech delivered by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco to the whole ROCOR Synod, it would shed so much light on the EP. The one I'm thinking of in particular was delivered sometime in the 1940s or 1950s, but still rings true to this day.

Now I have to compel myself to muster the effort to find it.

 

[Michael G]

If I could ever find this one speech delivered by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco to the whole ROCOR Synod, it would shed so much light on the EP. The one I'm thinking of in particular was delivered sometime in the 1940s or 1950s, but still rings true to this day.

Now I have to compel myself to muster the effort to find it.

Please do!

 

[Joshua G.]

OrthodoxyUSA,

It is obvious that you are more personally invested in this issue. We all have our callings. Perhaps the truth is found in the tension between our two points of view.

In the end, no matter what. No matter what is decided in terms of this issue, you and I are brothers in Christ. That matters more than anything else.

As far as my stance on this, all I can see is to see Macarius' earlier post (99). I couldn't say it more eloquently or accurately.

Joshua

 

[jckstraw72]

is this the St. John article youre talking about? St. John Maximovitch, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco -- The Decline of the Patriarchate of Constantinople

 

[E.C.]

is this the St. John article youre talking about? St. John Maximovitch, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco -- The Decline of the Patriarchate of Constantinople

That's the one!

 

[Michael G]

That article does very little to make me have anything more than contempt for the EP. Sounds to me that the current and past EPs are more intent on prerserving his territorial rule than on preserving the Orthodox way of life. Thank God the MP has the backbone and grace to stand up to the EP!

 

[Protoevangel]

St. John Maximovitch, pray for us!