Homosexuals and Bisexuals

[BigBadWlf]

demonstrably untrue

The Septuagint says “bdelygma”

Jeremiah 7:9-10 uses zimah not to’ebah

When "to'ebah" refers to the breaking of a ritual law it might be better translated "ritually improper," or "involves foreign religious cult practice."

"Scripture itself disproves that the word toevah only applies to ceremonial or ritual impurity. The nations that the Hebrews were about to inhabit, were judged and driven out of the due to the abominations (toevah) they had committed, Lev 18:24-30, Deu 18:9, 20:18, 2 King 16:3, 21:2. They did not have the ceremonial or ritual law that the Hebrews had. Also stealing, murder, adultery, swearing falsely, idolatry and hypocrisy are also described as toevah (Jer 7:9-10). This is discussed in The Same Sex Controversy61. "

- Common pro-gay theological arguments

Ross Taylor? So a software engineer http://www.apocalipsis.org/bio.htm knows more about Hebrew translation than biblical scholars?

 

[Shane Roach]

The Septuagint says “bdelygma”

Jeremiah 7:9-10 uses zimah not to’ebah

When "to'ebah" refers to the breaking of a ritual law it might be better translated "ritually improper," or "involves foreign religious cult practice."


Ross Taylor? So a software engineer http://www.apocalipsis.org/bio.htm knows more about Hebrew translation than biblical scholars?

Apparently, since the word your linguists are stating only means ritually unclean is used in situations where it cannot possibly mean merely that.

 

[BigBadWlf]

You are wrong read my post again... First the man is talking out of scientific evidence irrelevant to any agenda

To talk out of scientific evidence one must provide scientific evidence. Goldberg does not even attempt to do this. What is presented are opinions in support of an agenda on an agenda driven sight

as he makes and PROVES it right from the beginning...

Proof? No proof of anything is offered

Dr. Goldberg mentions in his article homosexuality has higher levels of pathology that by itself should signal that it is a disorder.

Which is a false claim.

“The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.”American Psychological AssociationStatement on Homosexuality 2004


H. Myer (2003)Prejudice, Social Stress, and Mental Health in Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Populations: Conceptual Issues and Research Evidence showed that statistics pointing to he perception that homosexuals have a higher incidence of mental health problems were age based, that is older homosexuals were more likely and younger homosexuals were less likely to have mental health issues. Investigation showed that sexual orientation was not a correlative factor in this but rather it is the amount and duration of prejudice, discrimination and potential violence gays and lesbians are exposed to that results in stress based mental health problems.

Rather than claiming that it is society's fault and cry foul I think the issue is related to the origin of homosexuality rahter than societie's inability to accept this disorder as normal or then all those people who are chronically depressed should not be treated but rather "accept" their pathology and allow them to their "right to depression" even suicide.

to bad that the APA doesn’t agree with you on the origin and pathology of sexual orientation

 

[Shane Roach]

to bad that the APA doesn’t agree with you on the origin and pathology of sexual orientation

The APA is not a scientist, nor does it conduct research. The APA is a professional organization that purports to represent Psychiatrists. It has been and continues to be subject to political manipulation on this subject.

No one is beholden to believe something simply because the APA printed it on their web site. To continually cite them without recourse to the actual research you're referencing is simply to engage in an argument based on authority and not on evidence.

When confronted with a study that debunked claims you make about homosexuality, you have continued to claim that no such study exists despite the fact that I have demonstrated that it does, and that information you claim is not there is precisely where the citation you called a "lie" said it would be.

 

[BigBadWlf]

The APA is not a scientist, nor does it conduct research.

“The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.”American Psychological AssociationStatement on Homosexuality 2004

The APA is a professional organization that purports to represent Psychiatrists. It has been and continues to be subject to political manipulation on this subject.

Actual evidence?

No one is beholden to believe something simply because the APA printed it on their web site. To continually cite them without recourse to the actual research you're referencing is simply to engage in an argument based on authority and not on evidence.

Your dislike of the facts don’t make them dismissible

When confronted with a study that debunked claims you make about homosexuality, you have continued to claim that no such study exists despite the fact that I have demonstrated that it does, and that information you claim is not there is precisely where the citation you called a "lie" said it would be.

 

[Shane Roach]

“The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.”American Psychological AssociationStatement on Homosexuality 2004

I showed you a study regarding stability which, as I stated, you simply refused to acknowledge exists. The APA, as a professional organization, is in no position to state what is or is not moral. So that part of the statement is a demonstrable overstepping of the bounds of the organization. It shows a lack of professional ethics to make claims outside the purview of your profession.

Do doctors give medical advice? Do lawyers perform surgery?

The APA needs to make public the research they claim substantiates these other claims that are actually in their purview instead of merely making the claim. Here again, when their studies are made available for public review, it seems they prove the exact opposite of what the APA says they prove.

One such example -- the very study you keep telling me does not contain the informaion I clipped from the journal in which it was published.

We know AIDS continues to be disproportionately represented in the US in the gay male community. We know the bath houses continue to proliferate in large metropolises where gays begin to form large communities. We know for some time gays were only too happy to be associated with NAMBLA.

NAMBLA still claims the relationship with gay rights.

"[SIZE=+1]WELCOME![/SIZE] The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) was formed in 1978. It was inspired by the success of a campaign based in Boston's gay community to defend against a local witchhunt."

We know many socialists will argue that any and all sexual behaviors should be deregulated.

We know states that refuse to pass laws, such as Jessica's Law, to help protect children from sexual predators.

What we don't know is why we need homosexuals to participate in a legally regulated institution that they simply cannot participate in physically.

 

[Philothei]

edit

 

[Philothei]

edit

 

[BigBadWlf]

I showed you a study regarding stability which, as I stated, you simply refused to acknowledge exists. The APA, as a professional organization, is in no position to state what is or is not moral. So that part of the statement is a demonstrable overstepping of the bounds of the organization. It shows a lack of professional ethics to make claims outside the purview of your profession.

“The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.”American Psychological AssociationStatement on Homosexuality 2004

Do doctors give medical advice? Do lawyers perform surgery?

Doctors usually do give medical advice

The APA needs to make public the research they claim substantiates these other claims that are actually in their purview instead of merely making the claim. Here again, when their studies are made available for public review, it seems they prove the exact opposite of what the APA says they prove.

you are demanding studies be made public but then pretend to know the content of these supposedly hidden studies

One such example -- the very study you keep telling me does not contain the informaion I clipped from the journal in which it was published.

hard copy right here.

As I said given the history of the organization that publishes Dailey and his misrepresentations it would not surprise me to learn that said organization has not doctored up some files

We know AIDS continues to be disproportionately represented in the US in the gay male community.

Really…that is odd considering that the majority of all known cases of HIV/AIDS are among women.

HIV/AIDS also disproportionately affects non-whites. 98% of all know cases of HIV/AIDS are from non-whites. Does this make racism acceptable?

We know the bath houses continue to proliferate in large metropolises where gays begin to form large communities.

We do?

We know for some time gays were only too happy to be associated with NAMBLA.



NAMBLA still claims the relationship with gay rights.

this same tactic is and has been used by racists for generations. A racist will compare a person of color to a criminal, substance abuser or as a sexual deviant in order to try to justify their own petty personal prejudices.
Again and again we see this attempt to de-humanize a minority from those trying to justify discrimination. By claiming a minority is diseased or degenerate, or obsessed with sex, or any other number of hate based claims then it reduces that minority (and everyone else) and supposedly makes discrimination somehow justified.
Such horrible claims were made against blacks and Jews and the handicapped and even though the target minority has changed little else has

"[SIZE=+1]WELCOME![/SIZE] The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) was formed in 1978. It was inspired by the success of a campaign based in Boston's gay community to defend against a local witchhunt."

Anyone can make up quotes as long as they don’t reference them

We know many socialists will argue that any and all sexual behaviors should be deregulated.

Next thing you know those darn socialists will start saying that black men should eb able to marry good Christian white women. Oh the HORROR…won’t somebody PLEASE think of the children?!?!?!?!

We know states that refuse to pass laws, such as Jessica's Law, to help protect children from sexual predators.

And this is on topic because…?


Well obviously because gays are all child molesters right?

What we don't know is why we need homosexuals to participate in a legally regulated institution that they simply cannot participate in physically.

Just like how infertile heterosexuals should be discriminated against

 

[b&wpac4]

Yeah like telling the Greeks what their language means

Why not? Some Christians are keen to tell those who have studied Hebrew their entire life what their words mean.

 

[Kharak]

You are wrong read my post again... First the man is talking out of scientific evidence irrelevant to any agenda as he makes and PROVES it right from the beginning

He has proven nothing (well proving anything in science is actually methodically impossible), except that he is NOT a psychologist, he's a sociologist (conveniently not listed previously). That's interesting too, because I can't even find his educational background. Plainly speaking, he's not even a geneticist or a biologist of any sort; so his views on patriarchal biology and genetics are questionable since he is not a professional of either field. He can write pretty research papers, I'm sure, but I would rather prefer the source documentation of professionals in the field who are capable of proper criticism than rely on third party commentary. So...

Getting to the point...

I would hardly call homosexuality a "moral" problem rather a psychosomatic problem since it does involve a complex personality disorder that involves physiology as well as environment. Like Dr. Goldberg mentions in his article homosexuality has higher levels of pathology that by itself should signal that it is a disorder.

Again, he is not a psychologist and the American Psychological Association doesn't classify homosexuality as a disorder. The only 'association' that does that anymore is NARTH, and if they are unbiased, then I am the Duke of Earl.

Rather than claiming that it is society's fault and cry foul I think the issue is related to the origin of homosexuality rahter than societie's inability to accept this disorder as normal or then all those people who are chronically depressed should not be treated but rather "accept" their pathology and allow them to their "right to depression" even suicide.

So we get to the root of the issue you have with homosexuality after bringing up the Bible and confusing science with morality. HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A DISORDER. Is this the entire basis of your criticism? I spent that time in the other post responding because you can't tell the difference between intersexuality and homosexuality!?

 

[BigBadWlf]

That proves what?

That being a member of a minority does not make one mentally ill

Straight people have mental problems too

If you would have bothered to actually read before posting you might have learned that you’re the assertion that somehow gays and lesbians “homosexuality has higher levels of pathology that by itself should signal that it is a disorder.” Is false.

“The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.” American Psychological Association Statement on Homosexuality 2004

... the que qua tactic of many debaters nothing new... Excuses upon excuses. Mental illness is based on symptoms and homosexuality as a disorder (it was so for the past thousands of years) was pathological...it was disfunctional

the problem presented to the APA meeting in 1973 regarding the DSM was the claim that homosexuality is a mental illness was one of evidence. There never was any evidence to support the claim that homosexuality is a mental illness. No one was able to present evidence that homosexuality was a mental illness. And nearly 40 years alter, no one has ever been able to provide any evidence that homosexuality was a mental illness.

so calling it "garbage" all this evidence is hardly a legit dispute...

Please stop putting words into my mouth. It is dishonest

The ones you refer too are different....they are "slanted" and "biased" since their premise is already there they just manipulate their data to fit into it...

And your evidence for slandering the reputation of published legitimate researchers is….?

 

[Fenny the Fox]

Out of extreme curiosity, exactly why is NAMBLA even brought up? Is it to bring some comparison between gays and child molestation?

By this logic, can we not also assume that all Christians are part of/receptive to the ministries of Westboro Baptist Church? After all, they claim ties to being Christian.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Again, he is not a psychologist and the American Psychological Association doesn't classify homosexuality as a disorder. The only 'association' that does that anymore is NARTH, and if they are unbiased, then I am the Duke of Earl.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, the watchdog institute for hate groups lists only 12 anti-gay hate groups operating in North America. NARTH is one of them.

 

[KCKID]

You do realize, do you not, that the Bible was written by men and not by God?

You do realize, do you not, that the men that wrote the Bible were carried along by the Holy Spirit and wrote exactly what God wanted them to with none of their own thoughts or any human commentary? (2 Peter 1:20-21)

You DO realize, do you not, that 2 Peter 1:20-21 was written by man and not God? You're offering circular reasoning here by using a part of the Bible to prove its own authenticity.

If I were to tell you that the contents of my posts on this forum were carried along by the Holy Spirit and written exactly as God wanted me to with none of my own thoughts, would you believe me? If not, why not? Why put so much faith in Peter, Paul, or other biblical figures so implicitly but not another fellow human being? What makes them different ...because they made it into the Bible? The Bible was also constructed by man and not God.

 

[Shane Roach]

The Southern Poverty Law Center, the watchdog institute for hate groups lists only 12 anti-gay hate groups operating in North America. NARTH is one of them.

How do you confirm that? Their "list" is a map.

Also, this organization is not really qualified to be cited as any official listing for hate groups. Among the qualifications for being a hate group according to SPLC is pamphleting.

"Hate group activities can include criminal acts, marches, rallies, speeches, meetings, leafleting or publishing. Websites appearing to be merely the work of a single individual, rather than the publication of a group, are not included in this list. Listing here does not imply a group advocates or engages in violence or other criminal activity."

SPLCenter.org: Hate Groups Map

 

[Shane Roach]

hard copy right here.

As I said given the history of the organization that publishes Dailey and his misrepresentations it would not surprise me to learn that said organization has not doctored up some files

And as I said, and posted the clipped portion directly from the article, I got it from the Journal, not Dailey.

I have gotten another of the writings you quoted as well which directly contradicts your statements.

Dolcini “Demographic Characterizes of Heterosexuals with Multiple Partners: The National AIDS Behavioral Surveys” Family Planning Perspectives. 1993. Vol. 25 (5): 203-214 found gay men had significantly fewer sexual partners compared to heterosexual men:
Gay men:
0 partners-10.5%,
1 partner-77.9%,
2 or more-11.2%
heterosexual men:
0 partners-17.9%,
1 partner 53.1.9%
2 or more 29.1%

Two problems. First off, they did not include any homosexual stats in the study.

Secondly, the stats for married men having a single partner are in the 90% range (92.7% and 91.2% for normal and high risk samples respectively), not your claimed 53.1.9% (whatever that was supposed to be).

I'll get screen shots on that tomorrow, but the bottom line is none of your claims about the studies you cited are accurate. You can say, "hard copy right here," as many times as you like, but if I can find these and eyeball them, sooner or later others are going to as well, and the facts are that you are somehow making huge mistakes with your claims.

 

[rosenherman]

Out of extreme curiosity, exactly why is NAMBLA even brought up? Is it to bring some comparison between gays and child molestation?

The acronym NAMBLA stands for the National Man Boy Love Association. Seems to be gay centered.

 

[rosenherman]

So please provide actual evidence that individuals have changed from homosexual (Kinsey scale 6) to heterosexual (Kinsey scale 0)

Kinsey? That study was so flawed I can't believe you even brought it up.

 

[rosenherman]

I hope you're not calling my wife a cow...

Unless my mother knew your wife, it's not likely, is it?

Why, if we both decide to play with other people with mutual consent and trust?

It's no marriage at all.

That's what protection and/or prudence are for.

Prudence would say not to put yourself in danger.