Met. Jonah of the OCA on American jurisdictional unity

[cobweb]

I posted this over at DC yesterday, but since I don't see a thread about it here...

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4812572/12841013

He has some rather strong words for the EP.

 

[Mikeb85]

As much as I dislike the EP's universal jurisdiction aspirations, I don't think American nationalism in the Church is any better...

Edit - just listened to it again, not so bad...

 

[nikolayalexandroff]

I'd like to see the printed version. Is it available anywhere?

 

[fuerein]

I believe this posting has the full text... I think this is the right one.

Metropolitan Jonah on Orthodox unity - Crunchy Con

 

[Joshua G.]

I think the connection between RC concept of the Pope and what the EP is suggesting is a strtch at best. But, I also understand that he needs to state and work out the OCA stance in a public forum before June.

So, does the EP actually expect the OCA to answer in some way (even if symbolically) to Constantinople? Or is it just the "left overs" not under OCA, or Antioch?

Joshua

 

[Joshua G.]

"foreign despots" was a bit.... strong to say the least. I really do like Met. JONAH (I pray for him every day and night even though he is not my bishop) and I have great hopes for him, but they hyperbole is layed on a bit thick... even though I do believe he makes a good case FOR working toward eventual local autonomy for the Americas. And that matters more than anything. I just hope others aren't trying to learn about the EP stance from his sermon.

Joshua

 

[nikolayalexandroff]

I believe this posting has the full text... I think this is the right one.

Metropolitan Jonah on Orthodox unity - Crunchy Con

Thank you.

 

[cobweb]

"foreign despots" was a bit.... strong to say the least. I really do like Met. JONAH (I pray for him every day and night even though he is not my bishop) and I have great hopes for him, but they hyperbole is layed on a bit thick... even though I do believe he makes a good case FOR working toward eventual local autonomy for the Americas. And that matters more than anything. I just hope others aren't trying to learn about the EP stance from his sermon.

Joshua

I was under the impression that we already have autonomy (at least in the OCA). What we lack is jurisdictional unity.

 

[Michael G]

As much as I dislike the EP's universal jurisdiction aspirations, I don't think American nationalism in the Church is any better...

Edit - just listened to it again, not so bad...

How is this speach American nationalist? The Metropolitan is telling the EP to stop acting like he is POPE and to recognize the American Church and the holy men and women who have worked to make Orthodoxy what it is in North America. The fact is Metropolitan JONAH has many more Orthodox under his direct authority than the EP does.

We are the bishops who say NI! And we shall say NI! to you EP types until you stop making POPE-ISH plans for our Church! NI! NI! NI!

Or he could have just pulled a rude Frenchman on the EP and said "Now go away, or we shall taunt you a second time-a!"

Anyways, AXIOS! Vladyka! I am not worthy to have such an incredible ruling heirarch as you!

 

[Michael G]

I was under the impression that we already have autonomy (at least in the OCA). What we lack is jurisdictional unity.

The OCA is not only autonomous but autocephalous. What the EP is in a pickle about is the fact the MP had the right to grant the autocephaly and did so without asking the EP for permission. <staff edit>

 

[nikolayalexandroff]

I've read the speech. Got impressed. I don't think that Metr. Jonah promotes nationalism. To me it's rather a sign that American Orthodoxy has come of age.

 

[Joshua G.]

I prefer "Orthodoxy in America". The phrase "American Orthodoxy" scares me a bit and I am not sure what that, as a modifier rather than just a location, means in such a pluralistic society.

 

[nikolayalexandroff]

You're right. It sounds much better, indeed.

 

[Michael G]

I've read the speech. Got impressed. I don't think that Metr. Jonah promotes nationalism. To me it's rather a sign that American Orthodoxy has come of age.

I would prefer to call it The American Orthodox Church, but that will take a little work to make a concrete reality. But as for JONAH, God bless him for loving this land and the witness of Orthodoxy in North America enough to defend us to the nonsense of the EP!

 

[Joshua G.]

The OCA is not only autonomous but autocephalous. What the EP is in a pickle about is the fact the MP had the right to grant the autocephaly and did so without asking the EP for permission. WAH! <staff edit>

I have my own personal issues with the EP but he is still a Patriarch. I would never call the Metropolitan "Joe" or my Patriarch "kyri-boy". Please, lets always treat all brothers and sisters as such, even when their intentions MAY go against the wishes of God. He is not 'bart' but Patriarch BARTHOLOMEW. He is not our enemy, even if we may disagree strongly on these situations. He is our brother and he is a father to many, and although I am not under him, as we are one Church, I consider him a father among fathers that surely I have much to learn from. If we can't discuss this issue as brothers but only fling insults at each other, then it is best we leave things as they are for the jurisdictional mess and confusion in the US or even being completely under Constantinople (not that such is even being suggested) is better than dividing ourselves over what is, in the grand scheme of things, silly. Jesus is not going to care on the Last Day how bishops there are over Chicago but that we loved each other. He's not going to care who was Old Calendar and who was New and he will certainly not care which side of this argument any of us (Including His Holiness Bartholemew and Metropolitan Jonah) were on. He is only going to care if we loved each other and followed his precepts. All of the Canons (ie 'guides') are important, but many of them are only of temporal and earthly importance and will be as worthless as dust on Judgment Day. Yes, these issues to need to be discussed among our heirarchy and they do need to work together to a resolution as heads of the family and we need to respect their decisions in the long run. But let's have perspective. Also, there is nothing magical about being under one bishop, even if it is preferred. Our parish, for one, has a much deeper friendship with four non-Patriarchal (MP) Churches, three of which are as far away as the next MP parish whose name at this moment I can't even remember. That's not necessarily good. But my point is that MUCH more than having one Metropolitan, celebrating Othdooxy Sunday with various jurisidictions (even if their bishops are "duking it out") will not only be our path to unity... but true unity in and of itself. Coming to the same chalice IS unity and many of us do that regardless of the bishop the naigboring parish is under.

Joshua

 

[rusmeister]

My taste agrees with Michael's sentiment - I very much want to see a single unified American Orthodox Church - but I agree with Joshua regarding our attitude towards it. In the end, it doesn't really matter who's in charge - even the actions of a complete doofus who makes lots of mistakes, if he is praying and we pray for him, will turn out ultimately to the greater glory of God. The great mistake is to think that the survival of the Church depends on us.

Still, in defence of the push for unity on American terms, I know that as long as my family in America sees Orthodoxy as some foreign religion, they won't bite.

And having unity of language, so that we someday are all quoting out of the same Bible, and saying the exact same words in the Symbol of Faith (when I hear "very God of very God", it always sounds like an adverb to me), and having the same version of Psalm 51 - one of my greatest bugbears, as well as jurisdictional unity, is very desireable.

So I'll wish Met. Jonah the best, hope and pray that he succeeds in his aims, and accept whatever outcome in humility and faith.

 

[Michael G]

I have my own personal issues with the EP but he is still a Patriarch. I would never call the Metropolitan "Joe" or my Patriarch "kyri-boy". Please, lets always treat all brothers and sisters as such, even when their intentions MAY go against the wishes of God. He is not 'bart' but Patriarch BARTHOLOMEW. He is not our enemy, even if we may disagree strongly on these situations. He is our brother and he is a father to many, and although I am not under him, as we are one Church, I consider him a father among fathers that surely I have much to learn from. If we can't discuss this issue as brothers but only fling insults at each other, then it is best we leave things as they are for the jurisdictional mess and confusion in the US or even being completely under Constantinople (not that such is even being suggested) is better than dividing ourselves over what is, in the grand scheme of things, silly. Jesus is not going to care on the Last Day how bishops there are over Chicago but that we loved each other. He's not going to care who was Old Calendar and who was New and he will certainly not care which side of this argument any of us (Including His Holiness Bartholemew and Metropolitan Jonah) were on. He is only going to care if we loved each other and followed his precepts. All of the Canons (ie 'guides') are important, but many of them are only of temporal and earthly importance and will be as worthless as dust on Judgment Day. Yes, these issues to need to be discussed among our heirarchy and they do need to work together to a resolution as heads of the family and we need to respect their decisions in the long run. But let's have perspective. Also, there is nothing magical about being under one bishop, even if it is preferred. Our parish, for one, has a much deeper friendship with four non-Patriarchal (MP) Churches, three of which are as far away as the next MP parish whose name at this moment I can't even remember. That's not necessarily good. But my point is that MUCH more than having one Metropolitan, celebrating Othdooxy Sunday with various jurisidictions (even if their bishops are "duking it out") will not only be our path to unity... but true unity in and of itself. Coming to the same chalice IS unity and many of us do that regardless of the bishop the naigboring parish is under.

Joshua

I will treat the EP with respect when he respects the work of the American saints and respects the presence of the Orthodox Church in America. Until then I have very little respect for the man.

 

[Mikeb85]

How is this speach American nationalist? The Metropolitan is telling the EP to stop acting like he is POPE and to recognize the American Church and the holy men and women who have worked to make Orthodoxy what it is in North America. The fact is Metropolitan JONAH has many more Orthodox under his direct authority than the EP does.

We are the bishops who say NI! And we shall say NI! to you EP types until you stop making POPE-ISH plans for our Church! NI! NI! NI!

Or he could have just pulled a rude Frenchman on the EP and said "Now go away, or we shall taunt you a second time-a!"

Anyways, AXIOS! Vladyka! I am not worthy to have such an incredible ruling heirarch as you!

Metropolitan Jonah talks about not submitting to a 'foreign' Church... Well guess what, many churches in the OCA are also in a foreign country... (Canada)

During the past 2 OCA elections it was also fairly clear that it's an American dominated church, when Archbishop Seraphim was passed over in favour of Metropolitan Herman (despite Seraphim receiving a majority of the votes, albeit less than 2/3s), and at the most recent council Seraphim withdrew his name from consideration because he felt he'd be out of place (not being an American and all)...

Apart from the nationalist element I thought it was a fairly good speech by Metropolitan Jonah, I understand he's trying to assert the OCA's place.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "you EP types", seeing as how I was Baptized in an OCA church, and currently attend an OCA church...

Furthermore, derogatory remarks about Frenchmen is not appreciated (though I understand most Americans dislike French people), and just so you know, I'm also French...

 

[Michael G]

Furthermore, derogatory remarks about Frenchmen is not appreciated (though I understand most Americans dislike French people), and just so you know, I'm also French...

Umm, go watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail before you go getting all insulted by my Frenchman comment. The comment was an almost direct quote from the movie, and A JOKE!!! In case you have read very little of my comments on TAW over the past 5 years, much of what I say is done with a very light heart. I have nothing against the French, that inspite of my having a degree in German history. If you don't believe me, ask my good friend who lives in Paris, Emmanuel-A.

 

[Michael G]

Metropolitan Jonah talks about not submitting to a 'foreign' Church... Well guess what, many churches in the OCA are also in a foreign country... (Canada)

The name of the OCA is not The Orthodox Church of the United States, but rather the Orthodox Church of America. America includes the United States, Canada and Mexico. Thus there are no churches in the OCA that are in countries foreign to America. And last I checked Canada was just given another OCA bishop, so it is not like the OCA treats its Canadian parishes as second class.