An example why Gay agenda undermines religious freedom

[Andreusz]

Why is it OK to manipulate the perceptions of gender and sexuality:?

I thought there was really nothing that had to change here, man; this whole 'girl + boy' works well.

So do the 'boy and boy' or 'girl and girl' things, for those who enjoy them.

 

[Psudopod]

Why is it OK to manipulate the perceptions of gender and sexuality:?

I thought there was really nothing that had to change here, man; this whole 'girl + boy' works well.

Why does it work for you? Because you have an attraction to girls. Not every man does, and some women do. It’s hard to form a lifelong commitment with someone you cannot bond with, that you do not love. Not impossible, there have been plenty of loveless marriages throughout history but in this day and age why do they need to be? Why should some people be free to marry who they choose and other be denied that right?

As for manipulating the perceptions of gender and sexuality, gender is largely a social construct (sex is the biological one, and while the two largely coincide they do not always and sexuality has always been a spectrum, but people are just more aware of it these days.

 

[Verv]

By the East, you're obviously ignoring certain cultures that exist in countries like Indonesia, Japan, and others where people who blur the gender line are seen in high regard, not as hated or disgusting. In fact, you picked just one nation, China, to talk about. One nation that, let's face it, doesn't have the best human rights record, especially in regards to peasants, farmers, factory workers, women, lower-status men... There is a lot to celerbate about Chinese culture, but human rights isn't one of them. A deeper look into Chinese culture reveals a much more complex model than the one you put out.

Korea is the same as China.

I guess I should talk more about the Confucian cultural groups or something like that.

Aw, whatevs.

The Western people who are most vociferously anti-gay are usually coming from a religious perspective. This is why we need to address them more than people coming from a secular perspective.


Not everyone thinks it's disgusting, and as has been shown many many times on this board, it is not unnatural.



Personally, I don't care if I make other people uncomfortable. That is not a reason to deny gay people equal rights with straights.


See my explanation above.

All right (?).

In Korea/China there are countless homosexuals that have been forced into marriages because if they were to come out and say they were gay they would be ostracized and shunned by their family.

It may be the same for the US to some extent. I do not know. I am sure it is different in certain regions.

But hey,

A very small amount of people have corrupted sexual feelings and have been twisted to not be attracted to the same gender.

It is unnatural in the sense that this is a mutation and not the way that humans were meant to live -- humans were meant to reproduce and to desire to reproduce, and in homosexuality, there is no ability to reproduce.

We could not be a homosexual species now, could we, and thus someone who does not desire procreation is not a healthy human.
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Someone asked... "why is it wrong to bend gender/sexuality?"

I think if you are asking this question there really is no way I can convince you of anything.

You have no sense of right or wrong other than the most basic ideas about not harming others, and do not bother to understand human relations in a more significant fashion.

 

[Verv]

So do the 'boy and boy' or 'girl and girl' things, for those who enjoy them.

I am glad that these strange shoes are able to make their own pairs.

There have been a lot of people that have found happiness in all forms of sin.

I have been finding happiness in groups of alcoholics and heterosexual fornicators for a decade, now, and I guess this is no different -- except, it is natural for humans to desire this type of leisurely, social behavior.

It would be unnatural for me to do anything but cringe when think of making out with another man.

[/color]

Why does it work for you? Because you have an attraction to girls. Not every man does, and some women do. It’s hard to form a lifelong commitment with someone you cannot bond with, that you do not love. Not impossible, there have been plenty of loveless marriages throughout history but in this day and age why do they need to be? Why should some people be free to marry who they choose and other be denied that right?

As for manipulating the perceptions of gender and sexuality, gender is largely a social construct (sex is the biological one, and while the two largely coincide they do not always and sexuality has always been a spectrum, but people are just more aware of it these days.

To some extent it is a social construct but the overwhelming majority of societies favor typical sexual relations, and documenting the sexual decadence of opulent societies is not a good argument against it.

Homosexuals should have every right to do what they want with their lives but pretending this is normal is a laugh.

 

[Psudopod]

A very small amount of people have corrupted sexual feelings and have been twisted to not be attracted to the same gender.

How do you corrupt and twist sexual feelings?

It is unnatural in the sense that this is a mutation and not the way that humans were meant to live

What about mutations that cause haemophilia or cystic fybroisis? Are humans meant to live that way?

-- humans were meant to reproduce and to desire to reproduce, and in homosexuality, there is no ability to reproduce.

There is not ability to reproduce in the infertile. There is no ability to reproduce in the post menopausal. There is no desire to reproduce in the child free.

We could not be a homosexual species now, could we, and thus someone who does not desire procreation is not a healthy human.

We couldn’t be a species if we were all male, could we, but we don’t say there is anything wrong with being a man, do we?
---------

Someone asked... "why is it wrong to bend gender/sexuality?"

I think if you are asking this question there really is no way I can convince you of anything.

You have no sense of right or wrong other than the most basic ideas about not harming others, and do not bother to understand human relations in a more significant fashion.

The more significant fashion that some people fall in love with members of their own gender and forcing to deny those feelings is painful and damaging?

 

[Andreusz]

Korea is the same as China.

No, it's smaller, and further North-east.

In Korea/China there are countless homosexuals that have been forced into marriages because if they were to come out and say they were gay they would be ostracized and shunned by their family.

It may be the same for the US to some extent. I do not know. I am sure it is different in certain regions.

And your point would be ...?

A very small amount of people have corrupted sexual feelings and have been twisted to not be attracted to the same gender.

I cannot claim to understand what you're saying here.

It is unnatural in the sense that this is a mutation

Mutations are not unnatural.

and not the way that humans were meant to live -- humans were meant to reproduce and to desire to reproduce

Nature does not have intentions.

We could not be a homosexual species now, could we, and thus someone who does not desire procreation is not a healthy human.

Humans are the only species that could reproduce if 100% of them were homosexual. Thee's this thing called artificial insemination ...
---------

Someone asked... "why is it wrong to bend gender/sexuality?"

I think if you are asking this question there really is no way I can convince you of anything.

You have no sense of right or wrong other than the most basic ideas about not harming others, and do not bother to understand human relations in a more significant fashion.

Actually, I would say it's you who's not bothering to understand human relations in a more significant fashion.

 

[Andreusz]

There have been a lot of people that have found happiness in all forms of sin.

I thought you were the one who was surprised that gay people see religious fundamentalists as their oponents. 'Sin' is a religious category. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a menaingful word.

It would be unnatural for me to do anything but cringe when think of making out with another man.

No one's asking you to. I would never want to 'make out' with a woman.

Homosexuals should have every right to do what they want with their lives but pretending this is normal is a laugh.

It is not normal, in that only a minority of the population is homosexual. It is normal, in that homosexuality is found in all human populations.

 

[sidhe]

Someone asked... "why is it wrong to bend gender/sexuality?"

I think if you are asking this question there really is no way I can convince you of anything.

You have no sense of right or wrong other than the most basic ideas about not harming others, and do not bother to understand human relations in a more significant fashion.

I rather think that understanding human relations as something more than dichotomies is a more significant way of looking at them. Prescribing cookie-cutter identities to people isn't understanding humans as individuals, but as masses.

I thought skins were keen on the individual as opposed to the herd?

Again, you haven't thought through your position. You're rebelling against preconceptions, while applying your own to others. I prefer to deal with people as individuals, not what I think they have to be.

 

[Verv]

I thought you were the one who was surprised that gay people see religious fundamentalists as their oponents. 'Sin' is a religious category. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a menaingful word.

I see your point very well, really.

I feel we have certain social responsibilities -- not being a drug addict or a drunk, not supporting prostitution or crime, not corrupting youth by introducing them to adult themes at young ages, not glorifying evil things, etc.

Homosexuality is a very adult theme and it is not normal behavior; if you are gay, I wish you the best in your life and I hope that you find Christ and overcome any struggles that you have.

I believe you should legally be able to practice your homosexuality -- I support your right to kiss and hug in public, and to make out passionately in back allys and have passionate embraces at the bottoms of starewells and in parking garages.

Here is something about me...

I have covered my arms in tattoos.

When I go to college or teach children I cover them as much as is practical because it is a distraction to others and it is not the place for it; more than that, children should not think heavy tattooing is a normal, acceptable practice.

I do not get drunk in front of children. I do not make out passionately in front of children. I do not swear or anything in front of the kids.

I think kids should be taught "Hey, homosexuality is an odd thing and not a normal occurrence. But homosexuals are people, just like us, and just have this differing thing about them. They should not be ostracized or shunned."

I merely think homosexuality should not be glorified or regarded as normal or typical.

No one's asking you to. I would never want to 'make out' with a woman.


It is not normal, in that only a minority of the population is homosexual. It is normal, in that homosexuality is found in all human populations.

True.

So is substance abuse -- it does not mean it is healthy for the person.

No, it's smaller, and further North-east.

LOL!

That was witty. I liked it.

Mutations are not unnatural.

True.

I guess it is natural in one sense of the word to be gleefully butchering a human being or sexually assaulting a woman on the train; spending your life abusing narcotics or alcohol; gambling away all of your savings while your kids have shoes with holes.

Everything is natural by your definition.

Rather, I use natural in the sense that "it's natural for the young boys to want to go out and play some sport while talking about hot girls in their class and speculating about what sex may be like."'

It is unnatural for a 12 year old boy to be mutilating a puppy dog or a kitty cat, and it is unnatural for them to be thinking 'I like people of the same gender.'

Nature does not have intentions.

There is a design within nature -- the lion race eats the gazelle race; the lioness enjoys mating with the lion, etc.

Humans are the only species that could reproduce if 100% of them were homosexual. Thee's this thing called artificial insemination ...

That is true!

However, we are not 100% homosexual.

In 20 or 30 years we could theoretically begin manipulating some people into elves, orcs and dwarves.

That'd be really cool. I love fantasy novels.

Actually, I would say it's you who's not bothering to understand human relations in a more significant fashion.

I've only tried to understand human's sexual relations from my own perspective, which is along the lines of,

"What are the best things to say to get phone numbers of pretty girls?"

I rather think that understanding human relations as something more than dichotomies is a more significant way of looking at them. Prescribing cookie-cutter identities to people isn't understanding humans as individuals, but as masses.

I thought skins were keen on the individual as opposed to the herd?

Again, you haven't thought through your position. You're rebelling against preconceptions, while applying your own to others. I prefer to deal with people as individuals, not what I think they have to be.

Respect.

I am an individualist... And I am a normal heterosexual.

I understand that homosexuals will always exist and that this is a mutation on the natural desires of a human, perhaps caused by something with the hypothalemus. Not bad.

I feel that rebellious youth culture is ALWAYS THERE in any developed society; every youth craves a social identity and a social group, a tribe to be a part of.

Humans, above all else, are tribal.

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How do you corrupt and twist sexual feelings?



What about mutations that cause haemophilia or cystic fybroisis? Are humans meant to live that way?

These are also mutations that hinder an individual. They naturally occur, yes, but they are not what a healthy human has.

]There is not ability to reproduce in the infertile. There is no ability to reproduce in the post menopausal. There is no desire to reproduce in the child free.

True.

The more significant fashion that some people fall in love with members of their own gender and forcing to deny those feelings is painful and damaging?

Let's not discriminate.

I agree with that.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To b&wpac4,

Don't worry BMS, ten years from now the UK will recognise gay marriage, and call it marriage.

possibly, and possibly in 20 years will realise the error and go back to recognising it is dysfunctional.
But I suggest the tide is turning

 

[b&wpac4]

To b&wpac4,
possibly, and possibly in 20 years will realise the error and go back to recognising it is dysfunctional.
But I suggest the tide is turning

Why are you addressing this to me?

 

[Wyzaard]

Ignorance is the natural state. Not "non-belief". Not "lack of belief".

That's the default position. Not, "well, until you show me one I don't believe it exists." That's skepticism, in the broadest sense -- the tendency to actively resist belief rather than to maintain an open mind.

No. "Ignorance" in this sense implies that there exists something that the person does not yet know... rather than non-belief, which reflects the lack of belief in the existence of something that's existence is in question. No "active resistance" is required for the nigh-infinite number of things or beings that could be believed in, but whose substance has not been shown to real, relevant, or meaningful at all.

Your call for an "open mind" is simply a way of avoiding the hard reality: that the onus is on YOU to support your belief-claims, not on the skeptic.

 

[Wyzaard]

How about we look at the ninth amendment.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

These first ten amendments were meant to be a check on federal power. The purpose of the 9th amendment is to counter the idea that by enumerating rights, the precedent is set to argue that the federal government is the sole arbiter of what are and are not rights.

No. This is not about who determineswhat are rights, but removing the entire concept of this arbitration of enumerated rights from authority period. The "people" retain individual rights by default, not by popular assent. Indeed, the 14th amendment made it clear that states and localities couldn't overcome these amendments either; the majority's in all cases is under a heavy onus, and a good thing too.

Your interpretation seems to be that "the people" only includes you and anyone you agree with, but "the people" actually includes all the people, and among the various rights retained by the people is the right to self government, meaning we all decide what is and is not to be legal.

Nope! the Bill of Rights, the Fourteenth Amendment, and tons of supreme court decisions make it clear that majority cannot lord over the minority without considerable restraints.

 

[Wyzaard]

What fallacies? Religious? Christian? Logical? Please feel free to make your case, since obviously you find something about these statements interesting in some way.

Your god is not "real by default"... this is an argument from obviousness, begging the question... take your pick, but this is a pretty clear problem.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Yes. People who have sex with their daughters, for example.

I am beginning to be moved however by your constant cries for equality. David Geffen and Barny Frank really do begin to remind me so much of Rosa Parks the more you repeat these same seven or eight sentences over and over. And I mean really, who am I to ask you to explain your beliefs? You are so noble, and your style enriches this discussion so deeply. Really, there is just no denying your righteous cause.

Apparently black civil rights leaders have a lot of sympathy for the comparison as well.

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/lar/lar_01homosexualscivil1.html

I guess I am just going to have to change my tune. I can't go on resisting the truth!

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice... But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King, Jr., said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere' ... I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King, Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people." Coretta Scott King

"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny... I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting from her husband. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy." Coretta Scott King


"We have a lot of work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say 'common struggle,' because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry & discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination." Coretta Scott King

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group." Coretta Scott King

“It is time to say forthrightly that the government's exclusion of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters from civil marriage officially degrades them and their families. John Lewis

“discrimination is wrong. We cannot keep turning our backs on gay and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry. John Lewis

“In 1948, when I was 8 years old, 30 states had bans on interracial marriage, courts had upheld the bans many times, and 90 percent of the public disapproved of those marriages, saying they were against the definition of marriage, against God's law. But that year, the California Supreme Court became the first court in America to strike down such a ban. Thank goodness some court finally had the courage to say that equal means equal John Lewis

“Gays and lesbians have a more difficult time than we did. We had our families and our churches on our side. All too often, they have neither." Dr. James Lawson


“when I am asked, 'Are gay rights civil rights?' my answer is always, 'Of course they are.' Rights for gays and lesbians are not 'special rights' in any way. It isn't "special" to be free from discrimination -- that's an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship” Julian Bond


“No parallels between movements for rights is exact. African-Americans are the only Americans who were enslaved for more than two centuries, and people of color carry the badge of who we are on our faces. But we are far from the only people suffering discrimination -- sadly, so do many others. They deserve the law's protection and they deserve civil rights too. Sexual disposition parallels race -- I was born black and I had no choice. I couldn't and wouldn't change if I could. Like race, our sexuality isn't a preference -- it is immutable, unchangeable, and the Constitution protects us against prejudices based on immutable differences” Julian Bond

“Discrimination is discrimination no matter who the victim is, and it is always wrong. There are no special rights in America, despite the attempts by many to divide blacks and the gay community with the argument that the latter are seeking some imaginary special rights at the expense of blacks.” Julian Bond



"Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the 'wrong kind of person' for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights.” Mildred Loving

“Of course you know that most of the stuff you hear against same-sex couples is the same type of hogwash folk used to keep interracial couples from getting married in Maryland. Maryland did not honor interracial marriage until 1967 (not that long ago). And it’s also the same type of thing you heard when the government was about to desegregate schools. They said “If you integrate the schools it would push the White race back a generation,” which meant that it was okay to keep an oppressive educational system because it would cause the other to fail, thereby justifying continued subjection and discrimination. It was fully irrational as is what you hear today regarding same-sex marriage.” Rev John Crestwell

“we have to stand up on the side in love and say that if we believe in the worth and dignity of all people, no matter their sexual orientation; that if we believe “God is no respecter of persons”; if we believe we are all sisters and brothers on this planet, then whenever you get the chance, and humanity calls to you, stand up and say with power and conviction that denying folk their inherent rights as human beings is wrong” Rev John Crestwell

“it is not just a fight for the gay community, it is a battle for justice and freedom for all human beings. We are either going to live up to the principles of our faith and tenets set forth in our constitution then move forward, or go backward to tragic days history won’t allow us to forget… I say let us, once and for all, put an end to subjugation; put an end to discrimination against folk just because they are a woman, or just because they are a man, or Gay or Straight or Asian or Black or Arab or Jewish or Palestinian—put an end to this madness, once and for all no matter how it manifests” Rev John Crestwell

“The debate is becoming a smoke screen from the real issue, which is that discrimination and a denial of civil rights, in any form, towards any group, is wrong.” Lola Andesioye

“At the end of the day it doesn’t matter which group is most oppressed or whether they are identically oppressed, what matters is that no group be oppressed.”
Keith Boykin

“I am in the valley of prayer on the issue of gay marriage, and I will err on the side of inclusiveness and not exclusion. I’m going to follow Jesus and say, Whosoever will, let them come. And I’m going to extend rights to all of God’s children” Rev. Joseph Lowery

"Whenever a society wants to demonize a particular group, it prohibits them from marrying." Sheila Kuehl

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King , Jr.

"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be."
Martin Luther King Jr.

"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda."
Rev. Dr. Peter Short

"The opportunity to be threatened, humiliated and to live in fear of being beaten to death is the only 'special right' our culture bestows on homosexuals."
Diane Carman

 

[BigBadWlf]

are homosexuals capable of understanding that minority status is not decided by sexuality?

are you capable of understanding that using minorities to advance your agenda is emotional and would make allot of minorities angry at you??

are you capable of understanding that using racism emotionally in nearly every post of yours shows that you are intellectually unable to use any other angles that try to show your argument in a positive light?

are you capable of understanding that since gay people have suffered nothing like slaves have that it is dishonest and despicable to use their dismay and troubles during those times as a tool to push your agenda?

are you capable of understanding that the gay community has done very little, if anything, to help minorities in this world and provide them food and shelter, and that based on pure percentage that the majority of the gay community has barely anything to do with helping the poor and the ghettos in minority areas???

homosexuals are a minority group. Personal prejudice doesn’t change minorities into something else.

A minority is a sociological group (not necessarily a numerical minority) that does not constitute a politically dominant majority of a given society. Included are ethnic groups (understood in terms of language, nationality, and/or culture) religious groups, sexual minorities, and people with disabilities

 

[BigBadWlf]

To Braunwyn,
What is objective is that a same sex union cant reproduce whereas a male/female one can.

It is not difficult for me to grasp, what I have said is undisputable. As opposed to same sex couples, male and female can reproduce. Sure male/female couples need to be fertile but why apply such a criteria to male/female when its irrelevant to same sex couples anyway. The reason is of course so as to be able to ignore the reality.

In fact I would suggest you are criticising others of what you yourself are doing. You are assuming your view is right and others must be wrong. Whilst you see others views as cockamammy, others see your views as having lost touch with reality for the reasons explained.

Again you demonstrate that your misuse of the ability to biologically reproduce to justify discrimination ahs nothing to do with the ability to biologically reproduce as you do not want this same justification for discrimination to apply to anybody except the minorities you advocate discrimination for

 

[BigBadWlf]

To BigBadwlf,
Of course its possible, but then perhaps you have a persecution complex as there is no evidence for this in the report which shows all unmarried couples were treated the same.

Is discrimination based on marital status legal in Great Britain?

 

[Braunwyn]

To Braunwyn,
[quot] Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? [/quote Because its reality, because its reality, because its reality because its reality because its reality because its reality because its reality!

What's reality is that you have to use fonts that prevent you from quoting without a mess. And you still haven't answsered my question. I have no idea why you think procreation is a requirement for marriage.

 

[Shane Roach]

Your god is not "real by default"... this is an argument from obviousness, begging the question... take your pick, but this is a pretty clear problem.

If something is real, it is real "by default" whether or not anyone knows about it, believes in it, or what.