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WHAT, do you think, is hell?

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War is hell.

but war is only temporary.
Hell is eternal.

war is the result of mankind's greed
Hell is the result of God's justice.

People go to war because they're ordered to go and have no choice.
People go to Hell because they choose to go.

People can choose to not go to war but if they're able-bodied and therefore can pull a trigger, then there are severe consequences in trying to avoid the draft. In some cases for people who would not normally be ordered into service, there are severe consequences for merely saying, "War is hell! What's being done is wrong!"
People can choose to not go to Hell simply by sincerly calling upon The Name of The Lord, and asking Him to do in their hearts, that which only He can do, AND WANTS TO DO AND IS WILLING TO DO IN EVERYONE'S HEART. In all cases, God invites everyone into His family, and is willing to issue a full and complete pardon to anyone who calls upon His Name, and asks for forgiveness. Any person who is truly repentant, and truly sorry for their screwups, is accepted, and will not be refused and turned away. (Offer void for Lucifer and his angels.)

War was created by the enemy of God, to screw people over.
Hell was originally created by God, only for the imprisonment of the devil and his angels, for their rebellion. Not for people.
 
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mpok1519

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nope; war is eternal. People will fight fight fight for ever and ever, as long as people are around. And even if people arent around, animals will still wage war. So no, war is not ephemeral. Although, almost everything is eternal; atoms and energy never ceases to exist.


and no, people don't choose to go to hell. A pygmy who has never seen or heard anything about God never makes a conscious choice as to where to go after life is over with.

Care to provide evidence that hell exists outside out scripture?

People are ordered to war and have no choice?

Man; life just isn't worth it when theres so much at stake. Isnt it unfair for God to give life to those who did not choose it, and then demand obieience??

doesnt sound like any God I know.

War is hell.
 
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Tavita

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The thing is that NO ONE wants to be wrong in regard to a (cherished?) belief. Human beings since the beginning of time have been filled with pride and it's this, in many instances, that have led to their downfall. We see this kind of thing all the time on the forum ..."How DARE you say that my long-held belief is incorrect ...especially when most of Christianity believes the same thing!" The notion is that the majority (of Christians) simply cannot be wrong. They CAN be wrong, of course, when their particular 'belief' was an erroneous one from the start. The LONGER an erroneous idea is believed the MORE entrenched in the mind it becomes. The traditional concept of hell is a prime example of an erroneous belief becoming entrenched in the mind.

It not only amazes me but it also concerns me greatly that people (Christians) get actually ANGRY when someone else comes along with a different concept of hell that shows God in a more humane light than does the traditional view. They actually get ANGRY! ??? Not only that, they also imply and some actually SAY that the concept of a humane God are words of the devil! ???
They actually like and accept and are comforted by the idea that the lost will get their dues by being eternally tormented in the flames of hell!

The traditional concept of hell has been misinterpreted from the start. Metaphors and symbolisms that are used in relation to hell have been made into literal accounts. The lack of understanding (the ignorance) in these areas by Christians is most shocking, to say the least. The favorite description of hell by Christians (The Rich Man & Lazarus) is a Hebrew fable. Jesus expounded on this fable with a parable of His own that was aimed at the Pharisees. It actually has nothing to do with hell per se. No matter HOW MANY TIMES people on this board are told this it goes in one ear and out the other. Why? Simply because they have no desire to hear the truth. The truth messes up their cherished belief and takes them out of their comfort zone. The very idea that a literal eternal torture chamber exists for the lost actually keeps people within their comfort zone is extremely distressing.

Christianity! No wonder the atheists have such a field day with us!

I agree with you.

I've had christians in CF, ANGRY with me for portraying God as a God of Love, a God of inclusion, not exclusion. I've even been told to sit in the corner and put my hand over my mouth, and shut up... true! :p
 
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Carpediemxx

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We cannot say what Hell is in any terms that we discuss. The afterlife is beyond comprehension, and we can only imagine a perception of it. How can anyone truly KNOW eternity? we may only conceptualise it

Considering that God is everything, have you considered perhaps, that Hell is seperation from God?

If we can ever understand such.
 
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Rajni

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I agree with you.

I've had christians in CF, ANGRY with me for portraying God as a God of Love, a God of inclusion, not exclusion. I've even been told to sit in the corner and put my hand over my mouth, and shut up... true! :p

:hug: They won't be feeling the need to say stuff like that forever, fortunately.

People generally exhibit characteristics they perceive in God. As their perceptions of Him change, the way they treat their fellow man will also change. I've seen this first and foremost in my own experience as I transitioned from believing that most will go to hell to believing that whatever "hell" there is will be for corrective purposes, in a loving context, and therefore temporary.

While it's no fun being on the receiving end of the snarky comments, it is, thankfully, just the fruit of a phase that person's going through.

"All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well." ~Mother Julian of Norwich

:clap:







.
 
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Tavita

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We cannot say what Hell is in any terms that we discuss. The afterlife is beyond comprehension, and we can only imagine a perception of it. How can anyone truly KNOW eternity? we may only conceptualise it

Considering that God is everything, have you considered perhaps, that Hell is seperation from God?

If we can ever understand such.

Yes, we look through a dark glass into the things of God. As the scripture says, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, what God has in store.

But may I ask what you mean by hell being separation from God? Do you mean now, when a person is alienated from God because they are dead in their sin, or, after death, being put away into a little corner of the universe, whether it be a physical or spiritual corner, without end?
 
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Tavita

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:hug: They won't be feeling the need to say stuff like that forever, fortunately.

People generally exhibit characteristics they perceive in God. As their perceptions of Him change, the way they treat their fellow man will also change. I've seen this first and foremost in my own experience as I transitioned from believing that most will go to hell to believing that whatever "hell" there is will be for corrective purposes, in a loving context, and therefore temporary.

While it's no fun being on the receiving end of the snarky comments, it is, thankfully, just the fruit of a phase that person's going through.

"All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well." ~Mother Julian of Norwich

:clap:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/meefsgirl/mini%20cutes/1626522v9748pzycx.gif...SisAmen Sis!
 
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JacktheCatholic

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[FONT=&quot]Christians believe emphatically that there is a literal heaven. They also believe emphatically that there is a literal hell. While we are given a brief description of heaven in the Bible (streets of gold, walls of jasper, etc.) hell is presented in rather vague terms. As long as Christians believe that hell is the future and the everlasting abode for unrepentant sinners, what precisely IS hell and WHERE is it 'geographically' located? Is it literal or is it figurative? Whatever your belief, please state your reasons for believing as you do[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

In the NT Jesus spoke more about Hell then Heaven.

Hell is the absence of God (Love) and Heaven is the fullness of God (Love).

Christianity says all men are immortal. This life is but a prelude to the forever. Heaven or Hell is where we spend forever.
 
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Norbert L

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[FONT=&quot]Christians believe emphatically that there is a literal heaven. They also believe emphatically that there is a literal hell. While we are given a brief description of heaven in the Bible (streets of gold, walls of jasper, etc.) hell is presented in rather vague terms. As long as Christians believe that hell is the future and the everlasting abode for unrepentant sinners, what precisely IS hell and WHERE is it 'geographically' located? Is it literal or is it figurative? Whatever your belief, please state your reasons for believing as you do[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

Depends, most of the 7th day communties, Sabbatarians believe in Annihilation. Unless they're not concidered Christians at all but as heretics, then it only becomes emphatic with "numbers" of adherents but not in absolutes. Populations adhering to ideas stemming out of the bible are recognized by secular governments as legitmate, whereas within religious thoughts amongst themselves, they may show open rejection. However either way each do have 'geographical' ideas about that.

To polarize the basic principles as simply as possible, it's hell with God sentencing the unbelievers to eternal torture, compared to the judgement of an utter but merciful cessation of life/consciousness.

The former tends to be concidered below as opposed to the heavens above. The latter emphasis is concidered symbolic with an already geoghraphically connected area. The refuse/chaff/waste in the "Ge Hinnom" fire just outside Jerusalem. Basically location becomes a secondary (pretty much a non existant) focus.

In a very general conclusion, the former more liberally allows for an opening (speculation possibly?) as to an exact physical location while the latter is not as concerned with it at all.

I would believe if a person believes in a speculation, promote it with enthusiasm and it turns out it was untrue. How would that reflect on them? In the least it would make a person look sorta silly. Like in a class when the teacher asks a question and you raise your hand with excitement, but it turns out you were completely wrong. The good thing is, you'll remember the right answer from then on in. :D

I personally don't put much stock in speculations, they just may bite you back in the future.
 
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Rajni

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In the NT Jesus spoke more about Hell then Heaven.
That all depends.

In one bible, the NIV, He mentions hell 12 times, and heaven 138 times. But then again, it depends on which version of the Bible one uses. My NAB doesn't mention hell at all ...


.
 
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Carpediemxx

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Yes, we look through a dark glass into the things of God. As the scripture says, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, what God has in store.

But may I ask what you mean by hell being separation from God? Do you mean now, when a person is alienated from God because they are dead in their sin, or, after death, being put away into a little corner of the universe, whether it be a physical or spiritual corner, without end?

Not now, any person who is alienated from God in life, is in no way Hell, indeed there can be no comparison.
I cannot begin to understand and therefore explain how seperation from God is Hell, Every essence of you and me IS God, consequently seperation from God is akin to being seperated from ourselves. It is like saying that we exists and do not exist.

I think that many things in religion including christianity are taken far far too literaly. How can God explain to a human the creation of the world? Where by definition, this cannot be explained in any way we can understand? Likewise, the end cannot be explained to any human, whether or not it is written in the bible. Gates of pearls and streets of gold, they are symbols that belong in a time when these were seen as the ultimate treasures. Wisdom is seeing beyond what your senses tell you, but true enlightenment is knowing we know nothing. Happiness is loving, because when we love we are closest to God, indeed when we love we are not rational at all.
 
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Rajni

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I cannot begin to understand and therefore explain how seperation from God is Hell, Every essence of you and me IS God, consequently seperation from God is akin to being seperated from ourselves. It is like saying that we exists and do not exist.
I'm a little confused by this statement.

If every essence of a person is God, and if God were to send that person to hell, wouldn't God therefore be sending Himself to hell? And, if so, how can that be separation from God if He is -- or, at least, little bits of Him are -- down there in hell with that person as a result?



.
 
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Carpediemxx

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I'm a little confused by this statement.

If every essence of a person is God, and if God were to send that person to hell, wouldn't God therefore be sending Himself to hell? And, if so, how can that be separation from God if He is -- or, at least, little bits of Him are -- down there in hell with that person as a result?



.

No, everyone is God, but the perspective of hell i suggested in my previous post was that of separation from God. Once seperated from God, he is not sending himself anywhere, since you no longer are God. It is a paradox: which is why i said it is like existing and not existing at the same time. According to reason, this is a foolish thing to say, but when considering God and the hereafter, we CANNOT think with reason.

I think death is like the colour blue to a blind man.
 
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The thing is that NO ONE wants to be wrong in regard to a (cherished?) belief. Human beings since the beginning of time have been filled with pride and it's this, in many instances, that have led to their downfall. We see this kind of thing all the time on the forum ..."How DARE you say that my long-held belief is incorrect ...especially when most of Christianity believes the same thing!" The notion is that the majority (of Christians) simply cannot be wrong. They CAN be wrong, of course, when their particular 'belief' was an erroneous one from the start. The LONGER an erroneous idea is believed the MORE entrenched in the mind it becomes. The traditional concept of hell is a prime example of an erroneous belief becoming entrenched in the mind.

It not only amazes me but it also concerns me greatly that people (Christians) get actually ANGRY when someone else comes along with a different concept of hell that shows God in a more humane light than does the traditional view. They actually get ANGRY! ??? Not only that, they also imply and some actually SAY that the concept of a humane God are words of the devil! ???
They actually like and accept and are comforted by the idea that the lost will get their dues by being eternally tormented in the flames of hell!

The traditional concept of hell has been misinterpreted from the start. Metaphors and symbolisms that are used in relation to hell have been made into literal accounts. The lack of understanding (the ignorance) in these areas by Christians is most shocking, to say the least. The favorite description of hell by Christians (The Rich Man & Lazarus) is a Hebrew fable. Jesus expounded on this fable with a parable of His own that was aimed at the Pharisees. It actually has nothing to do with hell per se. No matter HOW MANY TIMES people on this board are told this it goes in one ear and out the other. Why? Simply because they have no desire to hear the truth. The truth messes up their cherished belief and takes them out of their comfort zone. The very idea that a literal eternal torture chamber exists for the lost actually keeps people within their comfort zone is extremely distressing.

Christianity! No wonder the atheists have such a field day with us!


I thought I would resurrrect this post since It needs to be expounded upon in order to give clarity on what and why hell (Hades) exists.

Hades is nothing more than the state of being dead. "Let the dead bury the dead" both are in hades so to speak. One is, by physical death in hades while the other, by spiritual death is in hades.

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything". You do not have to be physically dead to be in hell (hades) since hell is nothing more than a state of consciousness whether spiritually speaking or physically speaking.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Heb: Shol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Grk: Hade), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Physical death itself causes corruption (rotting body) so the lesson here is not that one would see or remain in physical death but that their spiritual life will not remain in the state of "not knowing anything" and they would not experience spiritual corruption and remain in the state of shol, hade.

As scripture bares out, the dead are dead and never conscious in any way shape or form. This fairs well either spiritually or physically since those walking this earth who know not God are deaf, blind and dead. They cannot percieve the things of God in order to have life so they remain in that state of spiritual death until they physically die and are thrusted into the same state physically.

As we can see from the two passages above, the words shol and hade are one and the same, so next time you read your bible try replacing the word hell with the actual Hebrew or Greek words for clarity and keep in mind that hell is not a place but a state of consciousness that God will one day deliver every single person who has ever lived from.

How do we know this? Because death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed so how could anyone be left in a state that does not exist? Furthermore, up until 400 years ago our dictionaries defined the word hell as "the unseen or impercievable" that is until the theology of the word hell began having an impact onth e definition of the word and as the mob ruled even the dictionaries were changed in order to accomidate current theology rather than the historical original definition.

God bless, Dave
 
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In the NT Jesus spoke more about Hell then Heaven.

Hell is the absence of God (Love) and Heaven is the fullness of God (Love).

Christianity says all men are immortal. This life is but a prelude to the forever. Heaven or Hell is where we spend forever.


Im sorry but I am trying to figure out which bible you use since your claim that the NT speaks more on hell than heaven is not true according to the bible/s I have.

If you are refering to the word hell in contrast to the word heaven, that may be a possibility but then you are ommitting the passages dealing with the kingdom of heaven where the word heaven is not present. That is horrible scholarship and extremely decieving to say the least.

ALso, I must ask again since you claim that Christianity says that all man are immortal yet the scriptures say nothing of the sort. Infact, no man is even saved.

The scriptures clearly state that thou SHALT recieve immortality, thou SHALT be (future tense) saved. No one IS immortal and no one IS saved.

All SHALT BE SAVED

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

ALso note Rev 20:12-15 and Luke 8: 27-39.

The reason I gave you Luke is because it is a witness to the truth I am saying. The demon possessed man was tormented and naked and wicked and Jesus exposed the wickedness that was in the man that was causing the man to be wicked and it was that which was defiling the man that was cast out of him and notice a little spiritual tidbit....that which defiled the man was destroyed in a LAKE. Then THE MAN HIMSELF WAS MADE WHOLE kneeling at the feet of Jesus fully clothed, no longer exposing his nakedness which we all know is defilement (sin) and in his right mind made perfectly whole. Now notice that the man was denied of Christ to come with Him. Why? Read the passages above about rewards. He was not worthy (by predestination by God) to go with Christ and His elect. He lost his reward but he himself was saved (healed, made whole).

God Bless, Dave
 
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Hell is the absense of GOD

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

It appears that God is even present in the depths of hell as well. Nothing can seperate anyone from the presents of God. He is in all and through all.

It helps to look to scripture before stating an opinion to be sure your opinion lines up with scripture.

This is part of the reason if not the sole reason their is so much controversy surrounding the true definitions of shol and hade. Opinions and ideas replacing good old study. Relative truths of scripture taking precedence over absolute declarations causing further division of those who claim so many differing views of scripture. Let's toss out our one sentence opinions and turn to the scriptures for the truth and establish unity in one spirit rather than division. A house divided against itself shall not stand so how can anyone who is divided within ever walk in unity with another (especially in the spirit of Christ).

God Bless, Dave
 
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JHM

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Personally I think Hell lies twenty miles away. Straight down. That is also "The Lake of Fire". I would also note that the "Destruction of the Daughter of Babylon" is supposed to be accompanied by the "Greatest Earthquake Since Man Has Been On The Earth". It would seem to me, that those who fail to heed the warning given in Revelations 18 : 4 - 5, stand a good chance of being dumped in said lake by said earthquake.

Revelations 18 4-5 (Revised Standard Version)
"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities."
 
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Personally I think Hell lies twenty miles away. Straight down. That is also "The Lake of Fire". I would also note that the "Destruction of the Daughter of Babylon" is supposed to be accompanied by the "Greatest Earthquake Since Man Has Been On The Earth". It would seem to me, that those who fail to heed the warning given in Revelations 18 : 4 - 5, stand a good chance of being dumped in said lake by said earthquake.

Revelations 18 4-5 (Revised Standard Version)
"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities."

As you have state, "personally I THINK" proves you do not know and I believe the problem is Christian orthodox theology is based mainly on what Christians "personally think" rather than being based on scripture.

Jesus said the words I speak are SPIRIT and they are truth. Well, If what Jesus spoke was a spiritual understanding than of all books in scripture Revelation is the most fitting of these words would you not think?

Speaking of a literal place with literal fire literally burning physical bodies for all eternity appears way out of the scope of not only possibility but of anything resembling spiritual understanding based on scripture.

The carnal (physical) mind cannot understand the things of God for they are foolishness unto them. Anyone on this planet carnal or not can view and understand all scripture literally so what seperates the chosen of God from the carnally mnded man when it comes to understanding if both perceptions are the same?

The book of Revelation is one of symbolism and spiritual understanding yet it is the most controversial of all books of scripture. Why? Because it is continually approached with a carnal mind that views these words as literal physical events whereas they are most definately not. When one approaches by the spirit the understanding is not confusing unless continuing to view it through the traditions of man and a carnal understanding of all scripture.

Always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth because they have no love for the truth. Doctrines and theories and thoughts and ideas take precidence over scriptural proof.

God Bless, Dave
 
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JHM

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Well I haven't seen any scriptural proof of anything you said. But I do know that God has the power to do anything that is not inherantly evil. I also know it is possible to transute various elements. I also know that the "Halflife" of Thorium 232 is 14.05 BILLION years. That seems long enough to constitute "eternity", if you consider that at the end of that time you still have half as much left as you started with.

I also know that when a planet "Differentiates" the heaviest items go to the core, and the lighter items arrange themselves by density in shells surrounding the core. Logic dictates therefore : (Quoted in part from another document).


1) Note : The Book of Isaiah chapter 34 deals with the destruction of "Edom" which was part of the Babylonian empire.

See Isaiah 34 : Subtitle The end of Edom a Jerusalem Bible

See Footnote 34 a
34 a : This apocalyptic poem on the end of Edom belongs to the cycle of anti-Babylonian compositions. It is seemingly later than ch. 40-46 on which the author draws. It perhaps forms a whole with ch. 35.

See Isaiah 34 : 8-10 (Revised Standard Version)
Isaiah 34 8-10For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From gerneration to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Note : "Its smoke shall go up forever" Forever is a very long time. Even if all the oil in the Middle East were set on fire, its smoke would not go up "forever". What then would logically explain Isaiah 34 9?


b) Scientists also say, (correctly in this case), that the core of the earth is primarily molten iron. (Atomic Weight = 107)


c) The earth is approximately 7800 miles in diameter. That part of it which we call the "Crust", (i.e. the part which is solid, as opposed to either heated to "Plasticity" or out and out liquid), is nowhere more than 20 Miles thick. By far the bulk of the planet is either plastic, (i.e. it flows, if slowly), or molten. Given those circumstances, it is ridiculous to claim that the bulk of the radio-actives are in the crust.


d) The major radio-actives, (Uranium 238, (Non Fissile Atomic Weight = 238); Uranium 235, (Fissile Atomic Weight = 235), and Thorium 232, (Non Fissile Atomic Weight = 232), are all far more dense than iron, and would sink in molten iron like a stone sinks in water.


e) If a substance is said to be fissile, it means that it's radioactive decay rate is high enough, (i.e. it is sufficiently unstable), to support a chain reaction. So if 1 atom splits, and in so doing emits highly energetic neutrons, and these neutrons strike two other atoms and split them, and those two emit neutrons which split 4 other atoms, what you get, because of the instability of the fissile material, (easy to split), is a chain reaction of events where more and more atoms are splitting with each new cycle, which results in a massive explosion called the "Atomic Bomb" provided there is a .sufficient amount or "Critical Mass" of the substance in a sufficiently pure state present.


f) When a planet "Differentiates", (i.e. the various components get gravitationally sorted into layers according to density, when there is sufficient heat generated by radioactive decay to cause the interior to become molten), the heaviest components go to the centre and the lighter to the surface. This is because gravitational attraction is stronger between heavy objects than it is between light objects. So since 2 heavy objects attract each other more strongly than say a heavy object and a light object, then the second heavy object being attracted more strongly will push the light object out of it's way to come in contact with the other heavy object.


g) So what you wind up with is a sphere of U238 at the very centre, surrounded by a thin shell of U235, surrounded by a thick shell of T232, all this with very thin layers of rare elements separating them . That ladies and gentlemen is a "Fast Breeder Reactor", which is what keeps the core molten.

h) A fast breeder reactor creates more fuel than it consumes. This is achieved by surrounding the reactor core with a blanket of either non fissile Thorium 232 or non fissile Uranium 238. While the 235 in the core is splitting, it gives off neutrons same as always; and because 232 and 238 don't split easily, when they are struck by a neutron instead of splitting they capture the neutron, thus converting Thorium 232 into Uranium 233;or converting Uranium 238 into Plutonium 239. Both of which are fissile, - (even the ancient Greeks knew that "Pluto" was the "God of the Underworld"). In the case of a "Fast Breeder Reactor" like that at the core of the Earth, it does both.

Remember the Earthquake ?


See Isaiah 34 : 8-10 (Revised Standard Version)
Isaiah 34 8-10For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From gerneration to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.


There is more to this that I will add elsewhere later, but it is out of sequence with other parts of my overall beliefs to post here.

 
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