Why I have such trouble believing in Christianity

[Minty]

One day at a time, PG...that's the thing with searching for a faith...sometimes it takes a while, and many mistakes to find the right one (I know that I made many wrong turns, and I still have days when I wonder).

 

[AzA]

One day at a time, PG...that's the thing with searching for a faith...sometimes it takes a while, and many mistakes to find the right one (I know that I made many wrong turns, and I still have days when I wonder).

As a friend of mine says, "Your past – well conducted or poorly conducted – is your past. It is valuable and should be cherished. It was an essential step on your way forward in life."

"Mistakes" built you into the woman you are just as much as "successes" did. And you are who you are only because of what you have learned from the totality of your life. Regret nothing.

 

[Minty]

I like that, AzA...and I shall remember it, too

 

[AzA]

Please forgive my piecemeal response; you made some great points here.

The way the religion is set up, one may only know Christ through ministers such as evangelists, pastors, teachers.

I would agree that this is often the case. I wouldn't say this is the only legitimate configuration. But I do understand why, based on the above premise, you've come to the conclusion you have. It makes sense.

Therefore, I find it impossible separate Christ from His earthly representatives. The only way to do so, would be to posit a "Christ Consciousness" which does not depend upon Bible, apostles or even Christianity itself, which can be experienced in all religions even if they don't recognize it as "Jesus".

Understood, and not a stretch for me. Even within the institutional traditions there is a whole lot of eternity and a great deal of human history before what Christians know as the incarnation of the Son of God, outside its Judaean context, and after the fact too. I don't think the institutions account for these issues very well.

That is the only way to get around the notions of authority and obedience that are set forth in Scripture, Ecclesiastic structures and evangelical ministries.

This made me smile. I was reading some aikido philosophy the other day... over and over the writer challenges people to work through the energy of attacks and challenges rather than to spend energy meeting or circumventing them. Naturally, some people seem to be more comfortable with that approach than others... and for this and other reasons, there are several martial and nonmartial arts, lol.

The Christ is no better than the messenger representing the Christ.

I can agree and disagree, perhaps because I perceive the All as both the sum of all things and as more than the sum of all things. In a comparable way, I can agree that Christ is no better than his messengers -- though for me, this is only part of the story. Christians use the representation issue as one of mnay warrants for their ethics -- living in the fullness of one's "in-Christ" identity.

Btw, I've always found your comments on revelation below the level of God to be completely sensible.

Revealed truth is not necessary the problem itself, but rather Christianity’s historic insistence that it alone represents the source of absolute truth which must be universally applied and assented to.

This dogmatism challenges me too. (And I do think Pearson's case sad. A missed opportunity for his former "friends" to demonstrate the human value of their belief.)

If this were not so from the very beginning, guys like Justin Martyr would not have been arguing with others about how Christianity supersedes and is better than Judaism and paganism.

I know you know that even as Christianity has refined a kind of tribalism for this society, Christianity is not the source of tribalism.

How is it possible to find out what is in Christ, without first digging through the polemics and politics of Christianity?

I think this is a great question, and worth exploring further.

If I ever see evidence that people around the world are coming to believe on the Jesus of the Bible without reading a Bible or hearing a sermon, then I will suspect that Christianity is indeed a universal religion revealed supernaturally by a specifically named God who wants humanity to accept Jesus as the embodiment of Absolute Truth.

I've heard such stories. I've also heard stories told in the inverse -- of people being called out of Christianity into other systems of belief and/or none. In many of these cases, the system being left describes it as apostasy and the system being joined calls it enlightenment, lol. Often these things are a matter of perspective and scope.

Otherwise, I have no choice but to recognize there are multiple and often contradictory Christ(s) revealed by various preachers, teachers, evangelists, patriarchs and Bible translators.

I can respect that, and do.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

I can agree and disagree, perhaps because I perceive the All as both the sum of all things and as more than the sum of all things.

Now I have to do a little philosophical backpeddling and give dualism its due. The ideal religion for me would strike a balance between an acosmic monism where everything merges back into undifferentiated unity and loss of individuality identity/self, and on the other hand, an extreme dualism which places a miserable ontological gap between Creator and creation which may or may not ever be bridged. A couple of Hindu sects come close to resolving the problem of paradoxical sameness and difference, but I'm not ready to become a Vaishnavite and accept Krishna as my Lord and Savior. I have to admit that unity and duality produce each other. I also have to admit that Abrahamic religion does point to the Absolute by forcing people to be uncomfortable with their perceived separation from the All which drives them to contemplate unity. I admit that some personalities need a strong devotional religion and even external authority (at least temporarily). I have to admit that the interplay of love and strive dialectically produce evolution. According to some studies, conservatism and black/white thinking may result from the way a person's brain is wired, so it is not a choice. If the All programmed it that way, then who am I to complain? Abrahamic religions would not exist in such proliferation if they did not play a part in the emergence of Consciousness. My frustration is not so much with duality and Christianity as much as with the stubborn insistence of a unity which will never be accomplished. In both Phillipians and Romans, Paul admonishes Christians to be of the same mind and to walk by the same rule. He is freaked out by dissensions and scolds groups who follow various personalities. To me, if Paul had any real insight into human nature, I think he would realize how futile it is to expect conformity of opinion. To mandate a prohibition against new understandings of the Christ event and to stifle organic development of spiritual thought forms, to me, is unnatural. It goes against human creativity and spontaneity. It makes diversity suspect. The following sentence is awkward but bear with me....By the very fact that humans are so diverse, the order not to diverge from an imagined status quo virtually guarantees there will be arguments about what it is exactly that is that is being diverged from. I think that is why some Christians gather together in unity just long enough to identify what it is they are against/anti. It is easier than settling their differences in obedience to Paul. Some follow Bartholomew, some follow Benedict, some follow John Hagy and some follow John MacArthur. It would be better if Christianity dropped the illusion of conformity to any one mind or rule and celebrated the various expressions of the "Christ" similar to how the Hindus/Buddhists/Jains celebrate being different but related Dharmic religions. Let liberal Christianity be its own religion with its own Christ. In fact, that's the technique all three Abrahamic religions should use instead of looking forward to some Armageddon to prove who had the correct holy book and chosen people. Anyway, back to my backpeddling. Despite my criticism of Christianity, I will admit that it is "necessary" in the great scheme of things, and even dualism has its place in defining the ultimate Reality.

 

[AzA]

Nicely done, Tube.

Am with you on the point of heterogeneity in nature; in fact I think I wrote something about it yesterday but can't think of where, lol.

There's so much we can learn just from looking around us. I think there have been a lot of unanticipated consequences to our industrial and urban distancing from the natural world: it's become so deeply mediated and many of us have a much harder time now seeing how it works. Or so it has felt to me as I've compared the places I have lived.

 

[Atlantians]

Hi everyone. Lately, I have had a lot of trouble with believing in Christianity. I currently am believing in Christianity but I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people to Hell simply for not believing in Him. Also, I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people simply for having sex before marriage. I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people at all. Now, I know that some people are going to say that God condemns no one but that we condemn ourselves but to me it is the same thing. Can someone on here help me out with my doubts?

Humans are sinful and depraved.
They are condemned already.

God is the judge.
We stand guilty as charged.

Hell is the destination.

He determines the extent of the punishment.
He also has mercy on whom He wills from among those already condemned.

He owes nothing to the reprobate and depraved sinners that we all are.

Sin is anything that goes against His plan and purpose.
It is rebellion.
It is hatred and despicable bile spewed at God Himself.
Even the smallest sins I commit every moment of every day recondemn me over and over.

 

[TheManeki]

I am so fascinated by the tension that exists between "God loves you" and "omnipotent, omniscient God is totally repulsed by you."

I've seen many people who focus on the latter -- perhaps it would be more accurate to say "people who are lead to focus on the latter" -- burn out on Christianity because they are taught to loathe, instead of love, themselves (and by extension each other). It's a real shame.

 

[BabyLutheran]

A pastor at our old church put together a long list of verses which showed that God was pleased with us and we were precious and loved.

Much unlike that spew two posts above.

I am not saying we don't sin, constantly, but obsessing on how depraved we are and unworthy is just not productive.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

Even the smallest sins I commit every moment of every day recondemn me over and over.

I almost wish there really was a hell, because the men who put such ideas of condemnation in your mind are the ones who should go there. No wait, any religious leader who derives the meaning of life from the concept of being recondemned over and over is already a victim of their own mentally constructed hell. No wonder they wish to make everyone else just as miserable. They need the company.
.
.

 

[ZuZu]

I almost wish there really was a hell, because the men who put such ideas of condemnation in your mind are the ones who should go there. No wait, any religious leader who derives the meaning of life from the concept of being recondemend over and over is already a victim of their own mentally constructed hell. No wonder they wish to make everyone else just as miserable. They need the company.
.
.

reps

 

[D.W.Washburn]

I almost wish there really was a hell, because the men who put such ideas of condemnation in your mind are the ones who should go there. No wait, any religious leader who derives the meaning of life from the concept of being recondemend over and over is already a victim of their own mentally constructed hell. No wonder they wish to make everyone else just as miserable. They need the company.

As often happens, Tube Socks Dude has said something that reminds me of a saying attributed to Jesus.

Matthew 23:13, 15 (NRSV)
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

 

[Atlantians]

I am so fascinated by the tension that exists between "God loves you" and "omnipotent, omniscient God is totally repulsed by you."

I've seen many people who focus on the latter -- perhaps it would be more accurate to say "people who are lead to focus on the latter" -- burn out on Christianity because they are taught to loathe, instead of love, themselves (and by extension each other). It's a real shame.

God's wrath and His love are both driven by His perfection.

Balance in our views, as Christians, is exceedingly important.

We can not claim hell doesn't exist or that God hath no wrath simply because we are so emotionally attached to our own imagination of God as being incapable of anything but mushy-happy lubby-doveyness.

A pastor at our old church put together a long list of verses which showed that God was pleased with us and we were precious and loved.

How lovely.

Much unlike that spew two posts above.

I was responding to another post, please do not refer to my statements as "spew". Thank you.

Furthermore, that "spew" was based heavily in scripture as you claim your love-filled list was:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Note that this is addressed to "all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness".

That would include all nonbelievers and all pre-regenerate believers.

Further Paul says:

22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Paul then says:

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Paul says to the Church of Corinth in a similar list of depravity that in fact:

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

As we have thus seen... my "Spew" was near verbatim from Scripture.

I charge you to repent for referring to God's word as "spew".

I am not saying we don't sin, constantly, but obsessing on how depraved we are and unworthy is just not productive.

Agreed. However, while we who are saved focusing on our own unworthy and evil depravity as sinful human beings is unproductive because God in His love has elected to save those whom He has willed, ignoring the depravity and condemned sinfulness of mankind is itself a far worse and in fact terribly dangerous thing.

I almost wish there really was a hell, because the men who put such ideas of condemnation in your mind are the ones who should go there.

Your view that God should send Himself to hell is rather odd.

Jesus Himself said:

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

No wait, any religious leader who derives the meaning of life from the concept of being recondemend over and over is already a victim of their own mentally constructed hell. No wonder they wish to make everyone else just as miserable. They need the company.

I am redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[QuakerOats]

God's wrath and His love are both driven by His perfection.

Balance in our views, as Christians, is exceedingly important.

We can not claim hell doesn't exist or that God hath no wrath simply because we are so emotionally attached to our own imagination of God as being incapable of anything but mushy-happy lubby-doveyness.

Personally, I just cannot reconcile what I think of as [ultimate] perfection with wrath, which is pretty much defined by vindictiveness. I'd be interested to know how you define perfection.

 

[Minty]

reps

Same here...well said, TSD

Personally, I just cannot reconcile what I think of as [ultimate] perfection with wrath, which is pretty much defined by vindictiveness. I'd be interested to know how you define perfection.

Same here.

 

[Atlantians]

Personally, I just cannot reconcile what I think of as [ultimate] perfection with wrath, which is pretty much defined by vindictiveness. I'd be interested to know how you define perfection.

I suppose perfection would be "that which is complete in its harmony with God".
Therefore God is the measuring rod and definition of what perfection is.

Love can't exist without wrath. There must be both.

 

[QuakerOats]

I suppose perfection would be "that which is complete in its harmony with God".
Therefore God is the measuring rod and definition of what perfection is.

If perfection is complete in its harmony with God, and God is wrathful, wrath must therefore be a part of perfection, and if wrath is a part of perfection, God has contradicted himself in wanting something different for us, something, if we follow the above pattern of logic, less than perfection, as we are told by Jesus to turn the other cheek, to love our neighbour as ourselves, and set aside our anger, and our want of retribution. If this is not less than perfection, then it must be a step higher than perfection, thereby nullifying the previously supposed perfection, because simultaneously exercising wrath whilst setting it aside cannot logically happen in action. If you feel I'm wrong, please provide an example.

Love can't exist without wrath. There must be both.

I disagree. If love had no opposition, there would still be love, it just may not be recognized as love, or at all. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, it still makes a sound; it still emits sound waves, even if there's no ear to pick them up and identify them.

 

[DeanM]

Well, back to the OP . . .

I can see why it's so hard to embrace Christianity given all the obsession with the negatives.

Luckily, there's still a few Christians who look toward the loving ideals of our faith.

 

[DeanM]

Love can't exist without wrath. There must be both.

I remember the first time I was stung by a bee. Right on the eye! Ow!

I didn't try to swat the bee away because (true story) my mom had told me that bees only sting people who panic.

So I stood my ground, and dernitt if Mr. Bee didn't sting me anyway.

I ran home and cried to my mom about two things:

1) How bad my eye hurt.
2) I couldn't believe my mom had lied to me.

Though I was only 5 at the time, I remember that day very well. My mom cradled me and cooed until I could manage to calm down enough to really listen to how sorry she was and that not all bees are that mean.

I just found a bad bee.

My mom loved me that day, and that was perhaps the day I realized how much I loved her.

(Here's the fictional bit added for contrast)

Then she beat my butt 'til it was purple and I couldn't help but think how christlike she was.

(Fictional contrast ends here)

Nope. Love can exist without wrath.

It's better that way.

 

[TheManeki]

Maybe it's like some relationships where your significant other professes love to you, but has a laundry list of changes you need to make.

Maybe it's like the "man hug" -- y'know, hug with one arm, pound on the other guy's back with the other arm. As one comic put it, "I'm hugging you but beating you at the same time."

(The coffee's just kicking in right now)