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Trinitarian formula????????

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ezek33

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Excuse me? The command that Christ Himself gave to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has been posted already. It's scripture. Deal with it. How you think the Didache conflicts with that when it uses the exact same words is beyond me. There is no "doctrines of men" being pushed here.
Jesus told the Disciples/Apostles to baptized in the singular name of the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Yet the Apostles did not use the Trinitarian formula of baptizing. Do you think that the Apostle blatantly disobeyed Jesus, misunderstood what He was saying, or knew that the singular name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit was Jesus?

This is how the Original Church in Acts baptized people, any deviation from the way the Apostles baptized is incorrect.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8 :16 For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


The didache oppose scripture because it deviates from the way the Church of the Apostles baptized their converts which is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that name is a singular name, that singular name is Jesus. The Trinitarian formula of Baptism in unbiblical at best.
 
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Musa80

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Jesus told the Disciples/Apostles to baptized in the singular name of the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Yet the Apostles did not use the Trinitarian formula of baptizing. Do you think that the Apostle blatantly disobeyed Jesus, misunderstood what He was saying, or knew that the singular name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit was Jesus?

This is how the Original Church in Acts baptized people, any deviation from the way the Apostles baptized is incorrect.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8 :16 For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


The didache oppose scripture because that devate from the way the Church of the Apostles baptized their converts which is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that name is a singular name, that singular name is Jesus. The Trinitarian formula of Baptism in unbiblical at best.

The context of those scriptures has already been pointed out by another poster. Reading Comprehension is a good thing. The Didache itself was written by the disciples and disciples of the disciples. It in no way contradicts the scriptures. Both the scriptures and the Didache contradict your understanding but that is not the fault of the texts.
 
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ezek33

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The context of those scriptures has already been pointed out by another poster. Reading Comprehension is a good thing. The Didache itself was written by the disciples and disciples of the disciples. It in no way contradicts the scriptures. Both the scriptures and the Didache contradict your understanding but that is not the fault of the texts.
The didache does contradict scripture and no one has pointed out the context of those scriptures, they have simply attempted to explain away the truth. The Bible says exactly what is means and means exactly what it says, and when it says that the Apostles baptized their converts in the name of Jesus that is exactly what they did period, and any deviation is a deviation from truth.
 
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Musa80

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The didache does contradict scripture and no one has pointed out the context of those scriptures, they have simply attempted to explain away the truth. The Bible says exactly what is means and means exactly what it says, and when it says that the Apostles baptized their converts in the name of Jesus that is exactly what they did period, and any deviation is a deviation from truth.

Alright friend. Fruitful discussion cannot be had when common sense and contextual reading are treated as enemies. I'm bowing out of this thread.
 
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ezek33

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Alright friend. Fruitful discussion cannot be had when common sense and contextual reading are treated as enemies. I'm bowing out of this thread.
When one cannot defend their doctrine with truth and or scripture, just give an insult and bow out, how dignified.
 
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Musa80

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When one cannot defend their doctrine with truth and or scripture, just give an insult and bow out, how dignified.

You have called a direct command from God Himself a "doctrine of men". What more is there to say really? You have absolutely no interest in finding the truth. You just want to be right.
 
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MrPolo

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Did you not read the other post?:doh:

The Trinitarian formula was not added to Matthew 28:19 by Constantine in 325.

Ignatius, ca 110
For those things which the prophets announced, saying, “Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles,” have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] “Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians, 9.2)

Irenaeus, ca 170
And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, chap 17.1)

Tertullian, ca 200
Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost. (Tertullian, Prescription Against the Heretics, 20)
 
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ezek33

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You have called a direct command from God Himself a "doctrine of men". What more is there to say really? You have absolutely no interest in finding the truth. You just want to be right.
The command is to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that name is Jesus as demonstrated by the Apostles. Jesus never told is to use the Trinitarian phrase Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when baptizing people. It is not about right or wrong it is about truth, to which you seem to care more about your doctrine than scripture.
 
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GuardianShua

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The Trinitarian formula was not added to Matthew 28:19 by Constantine in 325.

Ignatius, ca 110
For those things which the prophets announced, saying, “Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles,” have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] “Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians, 9.2)

Irenaeus, ca 170
And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, chap 17.1)

Tertullian, ca 200
Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost. (Tertullian, Prescription Against the Heretics, 20)

You have called a direct command from God Himself a "doctrine of men". What more is there to say really? You have absolutely no interest in finding the truth. You just want to be right.

No, you seem to misunderstand. You use clear scripture to understand. We have a clear command to go and baptise in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. It's clear.

On the other hand, Acts really doesn't look directly at the act of baptism. It's speaking more generally.

So it's simple, instead of rationalisation, you go to where the issue is looked at directly. That would be the formula given in the Gospels.

It's not rationalisation at all.

Marv

I think if we looked at the context of OrthodoxyUSA's post, he may have been meaning something different than what you are talking about in this thread...

The Trinitarian formula was introduced by Constantine the Great. It was he who determined that the Holy Spirit was a third person, and not a name title for Yahwah.

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: THE 1968 EDITION, Introduction to Christianity: By Joseph Ratzinger. page 82-83.

He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."

The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius: Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to that eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all
things whatsoever I have commanded you."
That "Name" is Jesus.

Matthew 28:19. N.I.V.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Eusebius was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it is today in our modern Bibles, but he always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Jesus, even after Pentecost.

And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

How well are you reading the post? Or are you?
 
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ezek33

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The Trinitarian formula was not added to Matthew 28:19 by Constantine in 325.

Ignatius, ca 110
For those things which the prophets announced, saying, “Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles,” have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] “Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians, 9.2)

Irenaeus, ca 170
And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, chap 17.1)

Tertullian, ca 200
Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost. (Tertullian, Prescription Against the Heretics, 20)
These 3 church fathers are quoting Mathew 28:19 not suggesting that we should ignore the precedent giving to us by the 12 Apostles in the book of Acts. The Apostles baptized in Jesus name and that is how it should be done. The Trinitarian formula was added later by men, who were either deliberately trying to push their trinitarian agenda or had misunderstood the meaning of Matthew 28:19
 
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Musa80

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The command is to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that name is Jesus as demonstrated by the Apostles. Jesus never told is to use the Trinitarian phrase Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when baptizing people. It is not about right or wrong it is about truth, to which you seem to care more about your doctrine than scripture.

So the name Jesus encompasses the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Is that what you're trying to sell us on now? Quite frankly that borders on the "Oneness" heresy.
 
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GuardianShua

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The Trinitarian formula was introduced by Constantine the Great. It was he who determined that the Holy Spirit was a third person, and not a name title for Yahwah.

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: THE 1968 EDITION, Introduction to Christianity: By Joseph Ratzinger. page 82-83.

He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."

The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius: Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to that eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all
things whatsoever I have commanded you."
That "Name" is Jesus.

Matthew 28:19. N.I.V.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Eusebius was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it is today in our modern Bibles, but he always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Jesus, even after Pentecost.

And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

And what do you make of this?
 
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SummaScriptura

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Taken from here.
"Jesus Only" Pentecostals argue that the New Testament talks about people being baptized "in the name of Jesus," but there are only four such passages (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5); they don't use the same designation in each place (some say "Lord Jesus," others say "Jesus Christ"), meaning they were not technical formulas used in the baptism but simply on-the-fly descriptions by Luke. The four cannot stand up against the divine command of the Lord Jesus Christ to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).

The phrase "baptized in the name of Jesus" is not a technical version of the baptismal formula, simply Luke's way to distinguish Christian baptism from other baptisms of the period, such as John's baptism (which Luke mentions in Acts 1:5, 22, 10:37, 11:16, 13:24, 18:25, 19:4), Jewish proselyte baptism, and the baptisms of pagan cults such as Mithraism. It also indicates the Person into whose Mystical Body baptism incorporates us (Rom. 6:3, Gal. 3:3).
In other words, those examples from Acts are synecdoches to distinguish Christian baptism from other forms.
SIDE NOTE: "Jesus Only" Pentecostals (United Pentecostal Church Int'l.) comprise a very small percentage of all Pentecostals.
 
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Musa80

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And those scriptures tell us to baptize in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, not with the formula trinitarians came up with decades later.

The formula is IN THE SCRIPTURES as has been pointed out multiple times now. It did not just pop up out of the thin air decades later.
 
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Musa80

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ezek33, the irony of your argument is just too much. In the scripture we have two things going on. A direct commandment from God to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and then the actions of the apostles which you think you understand. Basically, you're saying that because you think the apostles did it differently than they were commanded to that the commandment given is of no affect. You then accuse anyone following proper practice of going by the traditions of men.

Like I said before, when common sense and contextual reading are treated as enemies, there can be no fruitful discussion. I'm done with this thread.
 
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ezek33

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The formula is IN THE SCRIPTURES as has been pointed out multiple times now. It did not just pop up out of the thin air decades later.
And I have pointed out to you that either you believe the Apostles disobeyed this direct command and baptized all the early church converts incorrectly or you have misunderstood what the commandment of God really was.
 
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