Trinitarian formula????????

[GuardianShua]

Matt 28

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."



John 14

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


John 16

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: THE 1968 EDITION, Introduction to Christianity: By Joseph Ratzinger. page 82-83.

He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."

The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius: Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to that eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all
things whatsoever I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.

Matthew 28:19. N.I.V.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Eusebius was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it is today in our modern Bibles, but he always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Jesus, even after Pentecost.

And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[chestertonrules]

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: THE 1968 EDITION, Introduction to Christianity: By Joseph Ratzinger. page 82-83.

He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."

The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius: Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to that eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all
things whatsoever I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.

Matthew 28:19. N.I.V.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Eusebius was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it is today in our modern Bibles, but he always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Jesus, even after Pentecost.

And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Stop pushing your propaganda.

The scriptures I posted, which you ignored, clearly make the distinction between the father and the holy spirit.

 

[MrPolo]

Stop pushing your propaganda.

The scriptures I posted, which you ignored, clearly make the distinction between the father and the holy spirit.

I was also a little disappointed to see that MichaelTheeArchAngel continued to advance the lie that Cardinal Ratzinger taught Matthew 28:19 was a later edition even after this was absolutely proven false in post #44.

 

[GuardianShua]

I was also a little disappointed to see that MichaelTheeArchAngel continued to advance the lie that Cardinal Ratzinger taught Matthew 28:19 was a later edition even after this was absolutely proven false in post #44.

I do not know why you guys have trouble seeing or hearing what Im saying or showing. But here again is what I quoted your Pope as saying: "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome." The words in brackets are not in his text, but were added so a person could know what is being talked about.

 

[Der Alte]

I do not know why you guys have trouble seeing or hearing what Im saying or showing. But here again is what I quoted your Pope as saying:

"The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."
​

The words in brackets are not in his text, but were added so a person could know what is being talked about.

I don't understand why you have so much trouble seeing that what you are quoting is a base LIE (staff edit). The book this so-called quote is from is quoted in the below post and if you click on the link you can see a print copy of the book.

The words that you placed in brackets, and I highlighted in red, are NOT in the original because, then, Cardinal Ratzinger was NOT talking about the triadic formula in Matt 28:19, he was talking about the apostles creed. (staff edit)

In your defense, you grabbed that quotation from one of a number of websites. As they present his quote, it reads:

"The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."
​

However, what does the actual text say from his book? Here is the 2004 reprint of the book online for anyone to view.

His remarks come at the start of a chapter subtitled: Introductory Remarks on the History and Structure of the Apostles' Creed. He is not giving a history on the text of Matthew 28:19.

Now here's his actual quote from Cardinal Ratzinger:

It may be useful to preface the discussion with a few facts about the origin and structure of the Creed; these will at the same time throw some light on the legitimacy of the procedure. The basic form of our profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text comes from the city of Rome; but its internal origin lies in worship; more precisely, in the conferring of baptism. This again was fundamentally based on the words of the risen Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
​

The words in parentheses from your quote are not in his text. The "text" he's referring to in your quote is the text of the Creed, not the text of Matthew 28:19. And as you can see, he goes on to quote Matthew 28:19 a few verses later the same way Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian did.

(staff edit)

It may be useful to preface the discussion with a few facts about the origin and structure of the Creed; these will at the same time throw some light on the legitimacy of the procedure. The basic form of our profession of faith [the Creed] took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text [the Creed] comes from the city of Rome; but its internal origin lies in worship; more precisely, in the conferring of baptism. This [the Creed] again was fundamentally based on the words of the risen Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Link http://books.google.com/books?id=LJ...ce=gbs_book_other_versions_r&cad=0_1#PPA82,M1
​

 

[MrPolo]

then, Cardinal Ratzinger was NOT talking about the triadic formula in Matt 28:19, he was talking about the apostles creed.

Amen.

 

[GuardianShua]

I was also a little disappointed to see that MichaelTheeArchAngel continued to advance the lie that Cardinal Ratzinger taught Matthew 28:19 was a later edition even after this was absolutely proven false in post #44.

Read page 83 line six, and you will find that he is talking about Matthew 28:19, because it says so. After you read it, you can come back and apologize to me.

Page 83 line three. Quote: "the text comes from the city of Rome;"

 

[Der Alte]

Read page 83 line six, and you will find that he is talking about Matthew 28:19, because it says so. After you read it, you can come back and apologize to me.

Page 83 line three. Quote: "the text comes from the city of Rome;"

You are deliberately repeating a false statement after having been shown at least three times it is false. The statement, "the text comes from the city of Rome" refers to the Apostles' creed, NOT Matthew 28:19 you continue to deliberately misrepresent, make false accusations, and malign the character of a Christian leader, Since you continue to make false accusations and refuse to acknowledge your deliberate error, nothing you say means any thing!

 

[ezek33]

Who cares what the reformers believed, I want to do what the church in Acts did, and one of those things were baptize in the name of Jesus.

P.S. Micheal the Arc Angel is so far off the beaten track on most his beliefs that he should be ignored not debated.

 

[chestertonrules]

Who cares what the reformers believed, I want to do what the church in Acts did, and one of those things were baptize in the name of Jesus.

P.S. Micheal the Arc Angel is so far off the beaten track on most his beliefs that he should be ignored not debated.

Acts 1:5

For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit a few days from now."

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: the

 

[MrPolo]

 

[ezek33]

Who cares what the reformers believed, I want to do what the church in Acts did, and one of those things were baptize in the name of Jesus.

P.S. Micheal the Arc Angel is so far off the beaten track on most his beliefs that he should be ignored not debated.

Acts 1:5

For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit a few days from now."

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

These verses are fine by me. What exactly were you trying to say by posting them?

 

[chestertonrules]

These verses are fine by me. What exactly were you trying to say by posting them?

It appeared that you were opposed to baptism in the name of the Trinity.

Am I mistaken?

 

[ezek33]

It appeared that you were opposed to baptism in the name of the Trinity.

Am I mistaken?

#1 I believe the correct biblical way is in the name of Jesus, however I do not think someone that gets baptized in the trinitarian formula is doomed to hell. The reason I started this thread is because there was someone on another thread saying unless you were baptized in the trinitarin formula you were baptized incorrectly and therefore doomed for hell even though you are a christian. If you read the O.P. you will see what I meant. However if this were true than all the converts of the Apostles are in hell because they only baptized in the name of Jesus.

#2 As far as those verses you gave how were they supposed to support the trinitarina formula of baptism? They are not talking about water baptism or any worded formula at all it is taking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GuardianShua]

You are deliberately repeating a false statement after having been shown at least three times it is false. The statement, "the text comes from the city of Rome" refers to the Apostles' creed, NOT Matthew 28:19 you continue to deliberately misrepresent, make false accusations, and malign the character of a Christian leader, the truth of God is NOT in you. Since you continue to make false accusations and refuse to acknowledge your deliberate error, nothing you say means any thing!

I do not know how it is possible for you to not see the words "Matthew 28:19" and the word "text." It must be an act of God.

 

[chestertonrules]

#1 I believe the correct biblical way is in the name of Jesus, however I do not think someone that gets baptized in the trinitarian formula is doomed to hell. The reason I started this thread is because there was someone on another thread saying unless you were baptized in the trinitarin formula you were baptized incorrectly and therefore doomed for hell even though you are a christian. If you read the O.P. you will see what I meant. However if this were true than all the converts of the Apostles are in hell because they only baptized in the name of Jesus.

#2 As far as those verses you gave how were they supposed to support the trinitarina formula of baptism? They are not talking about water baptism or any worded formula at all it is taking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

John baptized in the name of the Father. Jesus then told us that when he left he would send the Holy Spirit.

It seems logical to me that we should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

My logical conclusion is confirmed here. Keep in mind that Matthew as written after Acts.

Matthew 28:19

Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

 

[GuardianShua]

#1 I believe the correct biblical way is in the name of Jesus, however I do not think someone that gets baptized in the trinitarian formula is doomed to hell. The reason I started this thread is because there was someone on another thread saying unless you were baptized in the trinitarin formula you were baptized incorrectly and therefore doomed for hell even though you are a christian. If you read the O.P. you will see what I meant. However if this were true than all the converts of the Apostles are in hell because they only baptized in the name of Jesus.

#2 As far as those verses you gave how were they supposed to support the trinitarina formula of baptism? They are not talking about water baptism or any worded formula at all it is taking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It appeared that you were opposed to baptism in the name of the Trinity.

Am I mistaken?

Acts 1:5

For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit a few days from now."

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: the

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was only given to those in a position of leadership. Before the Trinitarian formula was introduced, people were only baptised in the name of Jesus.

 

[ezek33]

John baptized in the name of the Father. Jesus then told us that when he left he would send the Holy Spirit.

It seems logical to me that we should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

My logical conclusion is confirmed here. Keep in mind that Matthew as written after Acts.

Matthew 28:19

Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

Sounds far enough, but can you explain this?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8 :16 For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Why did the Apostles baptize their converts in the name of Jesus and were they doing it wrong?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I found this post in another thread and did not want to divert the thread from its attended subject, but I did want to ask a question to O, so I thought I would start a new thread.

Question, Why didn't the Apostles use the trinitarian formula when baptizing people? and do you really want us to think that all the people baptized in Acts by the Apostles were baptized incorrectly?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8 :16 For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Hi,

This last one is a perfect example isn't it?

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The Ephesians are being baptized.

Does the phrase "SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT" mean anything to anyone here?

Can you tell our guest how this applies to Holy Baptism?

Forgive me...

 

[ezek33]

Nice of you to drop in O, after 9 pages, however you still did not answer my questions.

Why didn't the Apostles use the trinitarian formula when baptizing people? and do you really want us to think that all the people baptized in Acts by the Apostles were baptized incorrectly?