Divorce

[allhart]

That doesn't answer why in Deut. it basically says a man can divorce a woman he finds displeasing.

Just as a reminder, Jesus fulfilled the law. He didn't come to abolish it, but fulfilled it. The truth about the Jewish history,Jesus came and stated that wasn't what he intended. They also distorted the interpretation to do as they wanted. I don't remember the exact historical interpretation, but the fact is we know what is the right thing to do. Divorce is a form of violence. Towards women and children. The effect on children in divorce as Jesus stated will be about 5 generations!

 

[b&wpac4]

Just as a reminder, Jesus fulfilled the law. He didn't come to abolish it, but fulfilled it. The truth about the Jewish history,Jesus came and stated that wasn't what he intended. They also distorted the interpretation to do as they wanted. I don't remember the exact historical interpretation, but the fact is we know what is the right thing to do. Divorce is a form of violence. Towards women and children. The effect on children in divorce as Jesus stated will be about 5 generations!

So, you don't believe that the Old Testament is the inspired word of God in the same way the New Testament is?

 

[allhart]

So, you don't believe that the Old Testament is the inspired word of God in the same way the New Testament is?

Yes, The old T. was showing us that we couldn't live to the standard of the law. As stated by Paul in Romans 7, 8

Do you really don't see that or understand that Because Jesus also told us to be innocent as doves and wise as serpents.

 

[b&wpac4]

Yes, The old T. was showing us that we couldn't live to the standard of the law. As stated by Paul in Romans 7, 8

Do you really don't see that or understand that Because Jesus also told us to be innocent as doves and wise as serpents.

I don't much care for Paul's writings, to be honest.

 

[allhart]

I don't much care for Paul's writings, to be honest.

You mean God.

 

[Open]

I always get confused when people say Jesus 'fulfilled the law'. Prophecy perhaps, but the how can law be fulfilled?... anyway I digress....

I would be interested alhart for your interpretation of scripture. Does it allow divorced Christians to remarry. If so, why?
I was only thinking the other day. It seems that divorce/remarriage = adultery. Surely than each intimate act with ones second spouse counts as adultery.
What do you reckon?

 

[KCKID]

I don't much care for Paul's writings, to be honest.

You mean God.

Human beings chose to include another human being's (Paul's) epistles in the Bible and suddenly these epistles become the word of God in the minds of many. How gullible are we expected to be? Besides, wouldn’t claiming another’s ‘words’ equating to the word of God be tantamount to blasphemy?

I also don't care too much for Paul's writings. They (or their interpretation by many) are responsible for much dissent within the Christian Church.

 

[KCKID]

I always get confused when people say Jesus 'fulfilled the law'. Prophecy perhaps, but the how can law be fulfilled?... anyway I digress....

I guess that Jesus fulfilled the law by living a perfect life. His life personified the law. Some believe that 'fulfilled' in this particular case means that from then on (AD) 'the law' was abolished. They believe that Christians are now saved by grace. What they don't seem to realize is that the individual was ALWAYS saved by grace ...way before Jesus came along. They were still subject to the law, however.

What do others think?

 

[CreedIsChrist]

I guess that Jesus fulfilled the law by living a perfect life. His life personified the law. Some believe that 'fulfilled' in this particular case means that from then on (AD) 'the law' was abolished. They believe that Christians are now saved by grace. What they don't seem to realize is that the individual was ALWAYS saved by grace ...way before Jesus came along. They were still subject to the law, however.

What do others think?

Well to someone who knows theology or read the bible this is extremely incorrect.


If they were always saved by grace as you said, why would Jesus need to come in the first place? The grace of God cannot be earned by following the law. People didn't not have grace until Christ died for us. The Grace of God died in humankind when Adam and Eve sinned(Before Eve sinned however, the Grace of God was with them), and it was only until Christ came that it was restored.

Grace is God's divine life itself, which enables the work of Christ to flow through us human beings who are born again.

Through Adam, we have been disgraced and separated from God, and in Christ, we are restored to grace and reconciled to God. Through grace men become new creations, "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Justification is by grace alone, through faith working in love

Grace became available to the world after Christ died. That is why Christ needed to descend into Hell for 3 days to preach to the people during the times of Noah and before. Sanctifying grace is the divine life that infuses our soul at justification, and, through the spirit of adoption, transforms the sinner into a holy child of God. As such we participate in the Divine Childship of Jesus Christ

 

[KCKID]

I guess that Jesus fulfilled the law by living a perfect life. His life personified the law. Some believe that 'fulfilled' in this particular case means that from then on (AD) 'the law' was abolished. They believe that Christians are now saved by grace. What they don't seem to realize is that the individual was ALWAYS saved by grace ...way before Jesus came along. They were still subject to the law, however.

What do others think?

Well to someone who knows theology or read the bible this is extremely incorrect.

It certainly is NOT incorrect. Since the beginning of time NO ONE - according to the Bible - was saved by anything but God's grace.

If they were always saved by grace as you said, why would Jesus need to come in the first place? The grace of God cannot be earned by following the law.

I never said that it could. In fact, I said - and I'll say again - that NO ONE (according to the Bible) was saved by anything but God's grace. The law, however, was to be a 'heart' issue BEFORE Christ just as it's a 'heart' issue today. Before Christ there were rituals that involved animal sacrifice which pointed to a coming Savior. After Christ animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. But the law still remains in the heart.

To this day, however, I have no idea WHY God required a blood sacrifice. Perhaps I'll ask Him one day.

People didn't not have grace until Christ died for us. The Grace of God died in humankind when Adam and Eve sinned(Before Eve sinned however, the Grace of God was with them), and it was only until Christ came that it was restored.

Not so.

Grace is God's divine life itself, which enables the work of Christ to flow through us human beings who are born again.

Excellent. As long as you're born again I assume then that you give to the poor, tend to the sick, visit those in prison ...?

Through Adam, we have been disgraced and separated from God, and in Christ, we are restored to grace and reconciled to God. Through grace men become new creations, "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Just (rhetorical) words to impress on another that one is 'holier' than them.

Justification is by grace alone, through faith working in love

As long as the above are not merely words and result in actions ...fine.

Grace became available to the world after Christ died. That is why Christ needed to descend into Hell for 3 days to preach to the people during the times of Noah and before.

Totally unscriptural. Jesus died and went to the grave (hell) for 3 days. His 'descending into hell' is a metaphor for 'death'.

As for the next part of your statement, like MANY others, you have misinterpreted the scriptures but have no idea that you've done so. Jesus did NOT preach to anyone while He was in 'the state of death'.* Jesus, however, DID preach THROUGH NOAH to the antedeluvians prior to the flood. Read your scripture again and this time, please ...COMPREHEND IT.

*Whoever believes the erroneous story that Jesus descended into a literal hell for 3 days really DO have it backward! Besides it being a gross misinterpretation of scripture they are also denying that Jesus actually died. Did Jesus die or didn't He, CIC? Should we instead rewrite the resurrection story and make this pivotal point of Christianity null and void? Christianity HINGES on the DEATH as well as the resurrection of Jesus!

Sanctifying grace is the divine life that infuses our soul at justification, and, through the spirit of adoption, transforms the sinner into a holy child of God. As such we participate in the Divine Childship of Jesus Christ

Nice.

 

[Open]

KCKIB - CreedIsChrist - Either of you care to reply to the rest of Post 86? - I would be curious for your take on same....

 

[b&wpac4]

You mean God.

Actually, I have changed my mind over the last few months. I have started to believe in God again. Not really sure what you are suggesting here with your little winking smile.

 

[KCKID]

I always get confused when people say Jesus 'fulfilled the law'. Prophecy perhaps, but the how can law be fulfilled?... anyway I digress....

I would be interested alhart for your interpretation of scripture. Does it allow divorced Christians to remarry. If so, why?
I was only thinking the other day. It seems that divorce/remarriage = adultery. Surely than each intimate act with ones second spouse counts as adultery.
What do you reckon?

Sorry I didn't respond to the rest of your post previously, Open.

As far as my knowledge on the issue takes me, one is only scripturally permitted to remarry when the original partner dies. This then, of course, frees up the living partner to remarry without the sin of adultery being leveled at them. Unfortunately, the way I see it the Bible forbids remarriage for any other reason. Remarriage is tantamount to adultery.

Note: I personally don't have an issue with divorce and remarriage. It's got nothing to do with me. But I likewise have no issue with homosexual orientation and same-sex relationships. That has nothing to do with me either.

 

[KCKID]

Actually, I have changed my mind over the last few months. I have started to believe in God again. Not really sure what you are suggesting here with your little winking smile.

Allhart is letting you know that the words of Paul are in fact the words of God.

Not true, of course.

 

[b&wpac4]

Allhart is letting you know that the words of Paul are in fact the words of God.

Not true, of course.

Oh but it's fun to make him explain exactly what his means.

 

[Open]

Thanks for your take on it KCKid.
Similarly I have no issue with remarriage etc, but scripture does. Hence why I am wondering how modern Christian churches justify same.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

It certainly is NOT incorrect. Since the beginning of time NO ONE - according to the Bible - was saved by anything but God's grace.

Yes that is true, but you said people had access to God's saving grace before Christ died. That is what is incorrect. Original sin damaged our state with God and it was only Christ who restored God's grace to us. This is very basic elementary theology here.

I never said that it could. In fact, I said - and I'll say again - that NO ONE (according to the Bible) was saved by anything but God's grace. The law, however, was to be a 'heart' issue BEFORE Christ just as it's a 'heart' issue today. Before Christ there were rituals that involved animal sacrifice which pointed to a coming Savior. After Christ animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. But the law still remains in the heart.

The law was created as a mirror to show humankind they're sin and fallen state. The law was also created as the begining road to salvation(while the law itself dosen't save it is what pointed the way to Christ and thus has a great part in salvation history) Jesus fullfilled the law because he nullified the consequences when the law was transgressed. The Apostle Paul writes pages and pages on this issue. When a husband dies the wife is no longer bound to him, and as such when Christ died the law no longer became bound to us.

Not so.

Then you haven't read the bible and the state of mankind after the fall. Humans had fallen from God's grace after the Fall. Even most atheists know this

Excellent. As long as you're born again I assume then that you give to the poor, tend to the sick, visit those in prison ...?

What does this even have to do with what where talking about? Of course I give to the poor and try to help the sick.

Just (rhetorical) words to impress on another that one is 'holier' than them.

That was scripture, not my words. lol

Totally unscriptural. Jesus died and went to the grave (hell) for 3 days. His 'descending into hell' is a metaphor for 'death'.

wait a second, your telling me something is unscriptural. And then above when I post scripture to you, you say that its just "rhetorical words to impress on another that one is holier". It seems you can't say much without contradicting yourself.

As for the next part of your statement, like MANY others, you have misinterpreted the scriptures but have no idea that you've done so. Jesus did NOT preach to anyone while He was in 'the state of death'.* Jesus, however, DID preach THROUGH NOAH to the antedeluvians prior to the flood. Read your scripture again and this time, please ...COMPREHEND IT.

I've read my scrpiture. But apparently you haven't.


Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water (1 Peter 3:18-20).

I suggest you look up the word "aforetime" in the dictionary to help clarify for you

*Whoever believes the erroneous story that Jesus descended into a literal hell for 3 days really DO have it backward! Besides it being a gross misinterpretation of scripture they are also denying that Jesus actually died. Did Jesus die or didn't He, CIC? Should we instead rewrite the resurrection story and make this pivotal point of Christianity null and void? Christianity HINGES on the DEATH as well as the resurrection of Jesus!

And if you studied any theology you would see that Christ has 2 natures, both divine and human, and that he died a human death, but because of his divine nature he was able to preach to the spirits in prison(sheol). Again, very basic theology here. Im surprised I even have to bring it up...When you try to come off as intellectually arrogant at least have something to back it up with

 

[b&wpac4]

Yes that is true, but you said people had access to God's saving grace before Christ died. That is what is incorrect. Original sin damaged our state with God and it was only Christ who restored God's grace to us. This is very basic elementary theology here.

The law was created as a mirror to show humankind they're sin and fallen state. Jesus fullfilled the law because he nullified the consequences when the law was transgressed. The Apostle Paul writes pages and pages on this issue. When a husband dies the wife is no longer bound to him, and as such when Christ died the law no longer became bound to us.

So, based on this, the point of giving just the Jewish people the law, and telling them to obey it, was just to show them they couldn't keep it? He singled out Jews, called them His chosen, blessed them and continually told them to repent and come back to Him and follow His laws when they strayed, just to prove they couldn't do it? In other words, God is sort of a trickster, just screwing with His people.

Meanwhile, all the gentiles were left pretty much alone, and didn't even have to TRY to follow the law but I guess when Jesus went to hell he gave them the chance too, right?

 

[CreedIsChrist]

So, based on this, the point of giving just the Jewish people the law, and telling them to obey it, was just to show them they couldn't keep it? He singled out Jews, called them His chosen, blessed them and continually told them to repent and come back to Him and follow His laws when they strayed, just to prove they couldn't do it? In other words, God is sort of a trickster, just screwing with His people.

Meanwhile, all the gentiles were left pretty much alone, and didn't even have to TRY to follow the law but I guess when Jesus went to hell he gave them the chance too, right?

The law was given as a Universal infinite moral guide to God's chosen people. All of our moral actions are judged by the law since it is God's infinite standard. It showed God's standard, and revealed to people that while they may be able to follow the law they will never be able to follow it perfectly thus realizing our utter depravity of needing God. The law was the first stepping stone to salvation for humankind since the Law always leads to Jesus Christ. Law gives humankind contrition so they can have repentence later.

 

[b&wpac4]

The law was given as a Universal infinite moral guide to God's chosen people. It showed God's standard, and revealed to people that while they may be able to follow the law they will never be able to follow it perfectly thus realizing our utter depravity of needing God. The law was the first stepping stone to salvation for humankind since the Law always leads to Jesus Christ.

What do you mean by "always leads to"?