Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why, because you think that I need it, or her remark is like the pot calling the kettle black ?

Both. You should see the GT board

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Nana, this is unbelievable!

I need you to help me. Make a list and put "tribulation", "sun/moon darkening", and "outpouring of wrath" on that list in order.

1.tribulation
2.sun/moon/stars fall
3.wrath

Tell me if the tribulation is before the sun/moon darkening. Saying that the sun/moon darkening is after the tribulation is exactly the same thing as saying the tribulation is before the sun/moon darkening.

Why are you saying it two different ways, to confuse the issue??? Why aren't you just saying that the sun/moon/stars happen after the tribulation?

Lord, in the name of Jesus I ask that you help Nana see that sun/moon/stars is after the tribulation which = tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars. Thank you, FATHER! Amen!

I see it, but show me a verse in the bible that states that the tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars happen. I don't assimulate verses in the reverse of what is there. I can see why you get confused....over kill on the meaning!!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

1.tribulation
2.sun/moon/stars fall
3.wrath

Why are you saying it two different ways, to confuse the issue??? Why aren't you just saying that the sun/moon/stars happen after the tribulation?


I see it, but show me a verse in the bible that states that the tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars happen. I don't assinulate verses in the reverse of what is there. I can see why you get confused....over kill on the meaning!!

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOD IS SOOOO GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!

Walk through this with me....

Now, in what seal does the sun/moon darken/stars fall/Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Both. You should see the GT board

Thank you for putting my rabbits back lol!!!!! Hey, what a coincidense. I live in Babylon also

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOD IS SOOOO GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!

Walk through this with me....

Now, in what seal does the sun/moon darken/stars fall/Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins?

It shows "a" cosmic disturbance at the 6th seal.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It shows "a" cosmic disturbance at the 6th seal.

AMEN!

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
...
Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The sun/moon/stars falling is the sign of the presence of the Lord from Matt 24. It is the beginning of the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord.



What happens next? What happens when the next seal, the 7th seal on the scroll, is opened? (Revelation 8 - think "climate change")


Here it is:

Rev 8:1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Rev 8:2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


So, the 7th seal is silence in heaven followed by the seven trumpets.

Trumpet 1 = Hail, fire, and blood hurts 1/3 grass and trees
Trumpet 2 = Mountain into sea, turns 1/3 of sea to blood.
Trumpet 3 = Fresh water turns bitter
Trumpet 4 = 1/3 light diminished
Trumpet 5 = satan releases abaddon/locusts who harm people for 5 months
Trumpet 6 = beasts armies kill 1/3 of mankind

Then there's a WOE...the 7 bowls on the kingdom of the beast.

Bowl 1 = Sores on people with the mark
Bowl 2 = all sea to blood
Bowl 3 = all fresh water to blood
Bowl 4 = sun scorches
Bowl 5 = darkness
Bowl 6 = devil, man of sin, false prophet gather the armies of the world to prepare to fight Christ as He is coming on the clouds

Trumpet7/Bowl7 = Hail, earthquake, thunder, lightning, "it is done"/the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdom of Christ!

Then Christ comes on the clouds!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Tell me if the tribulation is before the sun/moon darkening. Saying that the sun/moon darkening is after the tribulation is exactly the same thing as saying the tribulation is before the sun/moon darkening.

Originally Posted by Big Mouth Nana

Thank you for that prayer. I need all of the revelation I can take, but He may want me to reciprocate intensly on your part lol. Do you see that you are not making sense with this.... sun/moon/stars is after the tribulation which = tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars. You can't have it before and after. That's not scriptural, and Matt 24 bares this out plainly.


Where your problem is, you have the tribulation in the wrong place on your list. The sun/moon/stars fall AFTER the tribulation. Why can't you understand Matt 24:29? What does that verse tell you when the cosmic events take place? Before or after the tribulation? AFTER tribulation only!!! The tribulation doesn't start until the abomination of desolation occurs. Everything above that is called the beginning of sorrows, and verse 8 even says all these are the beginning of sorrows. All what things? The things He had just mentioned from verse 5-7.
Even Jesus stated after the abomination of desolation verse in Matt 24:21 ~ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Your big problem is the placing of events.

For some reason, I get the feeling both of you are saying the same thing here

 

[HisdaughterJen]

For some reason, I get the feeling both of you are saying the same thing here

YEs, we were! Except for the timing of the abomination of desolation.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

AMEN!

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
...
Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The sun/moon/stars falling is the sign of the presence of the Lord from Matt 24. It is the beginning of the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord.



What happens next? What happens when the next seal, the 7th seal on the scroll, is opened? (Revelation 8 - think "climate change")


Here it is:

Rev 8:1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Rev 8:2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


So, the 7th seal is silence in heaven followed by the seven trumpets.

Trumpet 1 = Hail, fire, and blood hurts 1/3 grass and trees
Trumpet 2 = Mountain into sea, turns 1/3 of sea to blood.
Trumpet 3 = Fresh water turns bitter
Trumpet 4 = 1/3 light diminished
Trumpet 5 = satan releases abaddon/locusts who harm people for 5 months
Trumpet 6 = beasts armies kill 1/3 of mankind

Then there's a WOE...the 7 bowls on the kingdom of the beast.

Bowl 1 = Sores on people with the mark
Bowl 2 = all sea to blood
Bowl 3 = all fresh water to blood
Bowl 4 = sun scorches
Bowl 5 = darkness
Bowl 6 = devil, man of sin, false prophet gather the armies of the world to prepare to fight Christ as He is coming on the clouds

Trumpet7/Bowl7 = Hail, earthquake, thunder, lightning, "it is done"/the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdom of Christ!

Then Christ comes on the clouds and he fights that army that gathered against him in bowl 6!

The abomination of desolation was a part of the tribulation. The sun/moon darkening came after the tribulation. The wrath of God, including the reign of the beast, was after the sun/moon darkening.

Therefore, the abomination of desolation is not the anti-christ and the tribulation is not the reign of the beast.

You see?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

YEs, we were! Except for the timing of the abomination of desolation.

The abomination of desolation happens at the fourth seal..Rev 6:7-8 ~ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. These are the beasts who rise up out of the sea.
I feel very strongly that we are in the third seal right now with the way the economy is now..Rev 6:5-6 ~ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. This "penny" is a "denarius" in the original texts and was one days wages.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The abomination of desolation happens at the fourth seal..7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 ~And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. These are the beasts who rise up out of the sea.

Well, you're close until you tried to associate the anti-christ/false prophet with the wild animals of the earth:

Eze 14:21"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments--sword and famine and wild beasts and plague--to kill its men and their animals!


These are the four seal riders. God's four dreadful judgments are the four seal riders, the first four seals, of Revelation 6.

Rev 6:8... They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

I feel very strongly that we are in the third seal right now with the way the economy is now..Rev 6:5-6 ~ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. This "penny" is a "denarius" in the original texts and was one days wages.

Indeed we are in all four of them because they have been continually riding since Jesus sent them after he ascended....and there are "wars, rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famines, and plagues in various places"...as all these are the beginning of birth pains....

Birth pains increase in frequency and intensity.

And what about Jesus' answer to the "no stone left on another" question in regards to the temple, as part of the tribulation?


Mat 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.



Luk 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.




Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Dan 9:27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] (the city/sanctuary) desolate, even until the consummation (the end), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel).




The abomination of desolation that happens during the tribulation is the desolation of the city/sanctuary that happened in 70AD.

The tribulation continues "even until the consummation (the end)"...and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel).

What is "the end" according to Jesus? The sixth seal!

Mat 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


And for the "sake of the elect" is the 144,000 of Israel who are sealed and protected by God during the 7th seal which is the outpouring of wrath which includes the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls. If the tribulation (from the abom of des until the sun/moon stars) were not cut short, nobody would survive...but for the sake of the elect (who are sealed and protected during and for the time after the sun/moon stars darken), those days are shortened.

We could be as little as two days away from that shortening.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Well, you're close until you tried to associate the anti-christ/false prophet with the wild animals of the earth:

You have a strange bible translation!! Oh., so you think that this person called death on this pale horse is going to force wild animals to kill people? LOL!!!!!!!! The Antichrist will kill people with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the BEASTS OF THE EARTH. The hunger are those who refuse to take the mark in order to buy or sell. The sword is self explanatory. It states that power was given unto them. These are the beasts of the earth who rise up out of the sea and join up with the main beast, not animals. You can't take another verse just because it has the same word and it mean the same thing. You do that a lot.

Eze 14:21

"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments--sword and famine and wild beasts and plague--to kill its men and their animals!

Yes, the Lord could do this, but this isn't the same thing or situation.

Indeed we are in all four of them because they have been continually riding since Jesus sent them after he ascended....and there are "wars, rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famines, and plagues in various places"...as all these are the beginning of birth pains

I agree that we are to # 3.

Birth pains increase in frequency and intensity.

Yes they do, and they are!!

And what about Jesus' answer to the "no stone left on another" question in regards to the temple, as part of the tribulation?

Yeah, so what is your point? Jerusalem is going to be surrounded by armies.

Mat 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

What does this have to do with the abomination of desolation? Jesus said this before He was crucified in regards to them not accepting who He was. There you go "roaming" again.

The abomination of desolation that happens during the tribulation is the desolation of the city/sanctuary that happened in 70AD.

Here is that "Preterisim" that seeps through!!!

The tribulation continues "even until the consummation (the end)"...and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel).

What is "the end" according to Jesus? The sixth seal!

Mat 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


And for the "sake of the elect" is the 144,000 of Israel who are sealed and protected by God during the 7th seal which is the outpouring of wrath which includes the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls. If the tribulation (from the abom of des until the sun/moon stars) were not cut short, nobody would survive...but for the sake of the elect (who are sealed and protected during and for the time after the sun/moon stars darken), those days are shortened.

We could be as little as two days away from that shortening.

Whatever Jen We are never going to agree. Time for a Tylenol, or I should say Jen relief.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You have a strange bible translation!! Oh., so you think that this person called death on this pale horse is going to force wild animals to kill people?

Yes! There's shark attacks and bear attacks and dog maulings and bee swarms among other things all the time!

LOL!!!!!!!! The Antichrist will kill people with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the BEASTS OF THE EARTH. The hunger are those who refuse to take the mark in order to buy or sell. The sword is self explanatory. It states that power was given unto them. These are the beasts of the earth who rise up out of the sea and join up with the main beast, not animals. You can't take another verse just because it has the same word and it mean the same thing. You do that a lot.

Well, isn't that what you are doing? You think that wild beasts mean the anti-christ/false prophet!

These are GOD'S FOUR DREADFUL JUDGMENTS!...Not the devil's.

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Yes, the Lord could do this, but this isn't the same thing or situation.

I agree that we are to # 3.

Yes they do, and they are!!

Yeah, so what is your point? Jerusalem is going to be surrounded by armies.


What does this have to do with the abomination of desolation? Jesus said this before He was crucified in regards to them not accepting who He was. There you go "roaming" again.

The very next time Israel is invaded, God is going to step in.

Here is that "Preterisim" that seeps through!!!

Preterism? No! I just know that the abomination of desolation was the destruction of the city/sanctuary in 70AD and the tribuation continues from even before that moment until the sun/moon darken.
The anti-christ doesn't even reign until after the sun/moon darken/stars fall. What do you think all this climate change nonsense being pushed at us is about? It's an attempt to keep us in the dark so that when it all starts to happen (the sun/moon darken/stars fall followed by hail, fire, and blood and mountains into the sea, etc.), they'll say, "see, it's all global warming...it's not God".

Whatever Jen We are never going to agree. Time for a Tylenol, or I should say Jen relief.

tee hee

 

[Kŗ§]

kriss, you don't even know the meaning of the words "tribulation and "wrath"... if you did, you would know that they are not the same. This is what this doctrine has done to Christians today: it's butchered what the Bible says about persecution.

Using the bible explain tribulation, The Tribulation, The Great Tribulation.

In your study you will see that there is a time set in the future that God will unleash His righteous wrath on the earth to provoke repentance of those who are stubborn at heart.

Tribulation is what we go through during rough periods of our lives.

The Tribulation is described at the signing of an agreement of peace between "THE" anti-christ and Isriel. This starts The Tribulation that is explained in great detail.

The Great Tribulation starts when "THE" anti-christ defiles the temple that will be rebuilt in Isriel. This is 3.5 years before the arrival of Jesus other wise known as "the second coming". During this period of time the earth and all of those who are still alive will witness GREAT Tribulation as the world has never known.

Anyone can understand the comparison that I've made.
tribulation = Our trobles in our lives (Mild) /before The Tribulation
The Tribulation = the wrath of God (Medium)
The Great Tribulation = the wrath of God (HOT) in comparison

Everyone that has studied Isiah, Daniel and the Book of Revolation will know exactly what I am talking about. I would suggest cracking those books before you tell someone that they "know" nothing about the Wrath of God during The Tribulation period of time.

 

[Super Kal]

I already DID explain it, kriss...

John 16:33
"...in the world, YOU WILL HAVE TRIBULATION..."
your own personal definition of "wrath" is, I'm sorry to say, embarrassing

please do your research, kriss, and stop taking the most popular view as the truth

 

[Kŗ§]

I already DID explain it, kriss...

John 16:33
"...in the world, YOU WILL HAVE TRIBULATION..."
your own personal definition of "wrath" is, I'm sorry to say, embarrassing

please do your research, kriss, and stop taking the most popular view as the truth

Far be it from me to point out the obvious but you claim that my view or parts of it are "the most popular view as the truth". If the majority of the christians believe this does that make the majority wrong in your opinion? Or should we look at you as an anomoly?

I don't speak for anyone else but if most christians believe something, could it be that it's most likely the truth?

 

[ezek33]

Far be it from me to point out the obvious but you claim that my view or parts of it are "the most popular view as the truth". If the majority of the christians believe this does that make the majority wrong in your opinion? Or should we look at you as an anomoly?

I don't speak for anyone else but if most christians believe something, could it be that it's most likely the truth?

The pretrib view is not wrong because it is the popular view is it wrong because the Bible teachings oppose it.

 

[Super Kal]

Far be it from me to point out the obvious but you claim that my view or parts of it are "the most popular view as the truth". If the majority of the christians believe this does that make the majority wrong in your opinion? Or should we look at you as an anomoly?

I don't speak for anyone else but if most christians believe something, could it be that it's most likely the truth?

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

you have done EXACTLY what this verse has prophesied.
in the beginning, NO ONE had this belief... not Justin Martyr, nor Irenaeus, nor Hippoyltus, nor Barnabas, nor anyone... this doctrine has watered down the Word f God into making people fear the truth: that tribulation is God's Wrath.

well, guess what: TRIBULATION IS NOT WRATH.
a Biblical scholar could tell you that, but, sadly, you probably wouldn't even listen, because you just want to please your own ears with this abominable lie.

and no, I'm not claiming that I'm a Biblical scholar

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What about a "pre-trib" catching away is so horribly offensive to you guys?

 

[ezek33]

What about a "pre-trib" catching away is so horribly offensive to you guys?

It is a man made teaching that opposes God's Word. Other than that it is not offensive just false.