Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[HisdaughterJen]

lol, both of you are saying the same thing... it's just that BMN sees everything from 7-18 inside those 7 seals, and HdJ doesn't.

I happen to agree with BMN, because this book is clearly not linear

I have asked you more than once to show me were you see the trumpets and bowls in regards to the seals and I haven't seen any answer yet.

Can we all agree that the seven seals are on a scroll in heaven?

Can we all agree that Jesus took the scroll and started opening the seals on the scroll after His ascension?

Can we all agree that when each seal is opened, then an event happens?

It's like opening a letter. You break the seal and see what's inside. The scroll has seven seals.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

sorry, but no... verse 15 describes what happens to those who are NOT paying attention... just like those who continued to eat, drink, and give in marriage in the days of Noah... those who are so stuck on a pre-trib rapture and who are thoroughly convinced that they're never going to see it are deluding themselves into a false hope

It is not only a false hope, but a Satanic lie. Post trib was the main belief before Darby, McDonald and others started this garbage and it permeated most of the church. I'll tell you just where I am leaning regarding this and it is scary to say the least!! The Second Coming of Christ is a prophecy for the church. He wants us to know the truth of when He is coming and in what time frame...we just don't know the day nor the hour. The last page in the book of Revelation makes it very clear what will happen to those who take away or add to the prophecy of this book...Rev 22:18-19 ~ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Now, spouting that Christ is coming in a pre-trib rapture is taking away from the prophecy of the truth of this book and adding their own truth. I believe that they are going to have to endure much during the tribulation...maybe even martyrdom. It says that God will add unto them the plagues that are written in the book. It doesn't say that they will die, or not even go in the Second Coming. I know that sounds harsh and unbelievable..but very feasible. Gods Word doesn't lie, and Satan has won many over into deception...even almost me at one time before I saw it. Know this, that Christ's coming is a very BIG prophecy, and people need to heed the warning and pray for revelation.

 

[LogosRhema]

I have often wondered if there would be any significant difference between pre-tribbers going through the tribulation then post trib believers..which I am post. The bible states in John 8:32... And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Does that mean that those who do not see the truth are in more serious peril during the tribulation then those who are post who have received the truth?
The reason that I have these questions is because I was pre-trib for 35 years..post for about 5 years now. When I was pre-trib, it seemed like I had less worries about what was coming on the earth because I wouldn't be here. When I first discovered that post trib catching away was the truth, I was in shock for awhile, but now I am at peace knowing what to expect...and actually more grateful to God for showing me the truth since it has sunk in. In 2 Tim 4:3-4 it states this... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Now I believe that this has been going on since "whoever" started the pre-trib "fable." It has followed a long line of well known bible scholars/teachers such as John Darby, even as most recent, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHay, and even preachers are expounding it on the Christian channels on TV. John Hagee, the pompous hypocrite that he is, said one day while I was watching 3 years ago, that the post trib rapture is the biggest lie that Satan ever perpetrated. He even said..DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT!! I haven't watched him since.
Now, I am wondering if people that follow this teaching and believe in a pre-trib rapture are going to be totally blind sided once the tribulation hits. God expects every one of us to search His Word for ourselves, and not rely on the truth of mans gospel from the pulpit, or what we have heard from our families carried down to us. Will this be considered believing a Satanic deception and pay the penalty in the end? If they can't even see the post trib rapture in the Word, will they even know who the Antichrist is once he is revealed? The bible doesn't really say anything about believing a "time line" lie, but it does say something about believing unsound doctrine. I DO believe that Satan started this lie for a very good reason...what is that reason and for what purpose?
I do believe that those who are full of what Word will know what is going on once this starts..unless they freak out thinking..OH NO, the rapture didn't happen. What do I do now??!! These are just some thoughts that I have had roaming through my head for awhile.

I tend to believe that Revelations is a symbolic picture of how our faith begins and how it exists through life. I do believe in Christ's return, but not like most people seem to believe in. I don't believe those who are pre-tribbers are caught in "lies". They believe as sincerely as you do, then who is correct? I'm sure both sides claim God "showed" them. What difference does it make in the end? Post or pre trib, neither are deceived nor weak. I see such statements as such made by the weak as a cataylst to cover their lack of faith. I don't see the point in bashing someone for a belief that isn't based on salvation and is simply about the future... A petty thing to do.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It is not only a false hope, but a Satanic lie. Post trib was the main belief before Darby, McDonald and others started this garbage and it permeated most of the church. I'll tell you just where I am leaning regarding this and it is scary to say the least!! The Second Coming of Christ is a prophecy for the church. He wants us to know the truth of when He is coming and in what time frame...we just don't know the day nor the hour. The last page in the book of Revelation makes it very clear what will happen to those who take away or add to the prophecy of this book...Rev 22:18-19 ~ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Now, spouting that Christ is coming in a pre-trib rapture is taking away from the prophecy of the truth of this book and adding their own truth. I believe that they are going to have to endure much during the tribulation...maybe even martyrdom. It says that God will add unto them the plagues that are written in the book. It doesn't say that they will die, or not even go in the Secojnd Coming. I know that sounds harsh and unbelievable..but very feasible. Gods Word doesn't lie, and Satan has won many over into deception...even almost me at one time before I saw it. Know this, that Christ's coming is a very BIG prophecy, and people need to heed the warning and pray for revelation.

You don't even have a clear understanding of what the tribulation is.

Jesus described it in Matt 24. He said it precedes the sign of His presence (sun/moon darken/stars fall). He said it includes wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution and martyrdom from the time of the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple and continues until the sign of His presence which is the sun/moon darkening/stars falling which is the beginning of the Day of Wrath (Joel 2/Rev 6).

1. tribulation (from the desolation of Jerusalem to the sign of His presence) (Seals 1-4)
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall (which is the sign of His presence), Day of Wrath begins (seal #6)
3. outpouring of wrath (includes trumpets, beasts, and bowls) (seal #7)
Then Christ comes.


This is confirmed by Revelation, Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2.

The beast does not reign during the tribulation. He is part of the wrath of God.

 

[Super Kal]

HdJ, you don't even know how your belief came to be...

Dispensational Premillennialism was first taught in 1827
Historic Premillennialism was taught in the time of the apostles

I'm getting tired of telling you the same thing over and over.
do your homework on church history and the history of these doctrines

 

[HisdaughterJen]

HdJ, you don't even know how your belief came to be...

Dispensational Premillennialism was first taught in 1827
Historic Premillennialism was taught in the time of the apostles

I'm getting tired of telling you the same thing over and over.
do your homework on church history and the history of these doctrines

WHO CARES ABOUT CHURCH HISTORY?????

Of course I know "how my belief came to be"...I have a Bible and I have the Holy Spirit to guide me. Tell me where it says in the Bible that I need to be reading church history to see what other people believed in the past in order to understand what God says in His Word?

Stop looking for truth in uninspired literature outside the Bible. Ask God to show you!

It's the height of absurdity, in my opinion, to let PEOPLE guide me when God said He gave the Holy Spirit for that very purpose.

Nana can't understand that one is before two and two is after one. You apparently can't do anything except repeatedly say that Revelation is not linear without proof or explanation. Where's the evidence of the Holy Spirit in your studies?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I tend to believe that Revelations is a symbolic picture of how our faith begins and how it exists through life. I do believe in Christ's return, but not like most people seem to believe in. I don't believe those who are pre-tribbers are caught in "lies". They believe as sincerely as you do, then who is correct? I'm sure both sides claim God "showed" them. What difference does it make in the end? Post or pre trib, neither are deceived nor weak. I see such statements as such made by the weak as a cataylst to cover their lack of faith. I don't see the point in bashing someone for a belief that isn't based on salvation and is simply about the future... A petty thing to do.

Oh, so you condone deception then if it is out of ignorance? The opposite of a TRUTH is a LIE. Does believing a lie come from God or the Devil, and does God condone that lie? I say NO!!
2 Tim 4:3-4 ~ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, (Darby; McDonald etc) having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I have more faith now that I know the truth!!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Oh, so you condone deception then if it is out of ignorance? The opposite of a TRUTH is a LIE. Does believing a lie come from God or the Devil, and does God condone that lie? I say NO!!
2 Tim 4:3-4 ~ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, (Darby; McDonald etc) having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

You have gone off on a tangeant. Who cares what Darby McDonald thinks! What does God actually say?

Have you figured out that one is before two = two is after one yet?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

WHO CARES ABOUT CHURCH HISTORY?????

YOU SHOULD!! It's part of our history and Christ is the head of the church

Nana can't understand that one is before two and two is after one.

Since when is two after one I thought it was before three lol. Actually I can count by 5's..5-10-15-20-25-30 etc.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

YOU SHOULD!! It's part of our history and Christ is the head of the church


Since when is two after one Actually I can count by 5's..5-10-15-20-25-30 etc.

Oh, come on! Am I engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed man? One has always come before two and two has always followed one.

The tribulation comes before the sun/moon darken = the sun/moon darken comes after the tribulation.

It's no wonder you're not seeing what I'm saying...in fact, what the Bible says!

No wonder you can't see that the gathering to Christ is a departure from the earth!

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

You have gone off on a tangeant. Who cares what Darby McDonald thinks! What does God actually say?

We keep hoping you will find out

Have you figured out that one is before two = two is after one yet?

Have you figured out that the church isn't going away until the tribulation is over?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

We keep hoping you will find out

Have you figured out that the church isn't going away until the tribulation is over?

I KNOW THAT! I'VE BEEN REPEATEDLY TELLING YOU THAT!

1. TRIBULATION
2. RAPTURE
3. SUN/MOON DARKEN/STARS FALL, DAY OF WRATH HAS BEGUN
4. OUTPOURING OF WRATH

IT'S THE SAME AS THIS:

1. TRIBULATION (SEALS 1-4)
2. RAPTURE (SEAL #5)
3. SUN/MOON DARKEN/STARS FALL, DAY OF WRATH HAS BEGUN (SEAL #6)
4. OUTPOURING OF WRATH (SEAL #7- TRUMPETS, BEASTS, BOWLS)

IT'S THE SAME AS THIS:

1. SEAL 1-4 = TRIBULATION = WARS, FAMINES, PLAGUES, PESTILENCES, PERSECUTION, MARTYRDOM THAT BEGINS WITH DESOLATION OF JERUSALEM IN 70 AND ENDS WITH THE SIGN OF THE LORDS PRESENCE.
2. SEAL 5 = RAPTURE = GIVING BRIDAL CLOTHES TO THE BRIDE
3. SEAL 6 = SIGN OF THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD/ SUN/MOON STARS
4. SEAL 7 = OUTPOURING OF WRATH (TRUMPETS, BEASTS, BOWLS)

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Oh, come on! Am I engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed man? One has always come before two and two has always followed one.

No, I have two arms, and I am a woman lol.

The tribulation comes before the sun/moon darken = the sun/moon darken comes after the tribulation.

Will someone else please show this blind woman that Matt 24:29 states emphatically that the sun/moon/stars event happens immediatley after the tribulation???? I have told her 3 times in two days and evidently she is deslexic and getting it bassakwards. Hope you aren't really

It's no wonder you're not seeing what I'm saying...in fact, what the Bible says!

I can't see lies...only the truth!!

No wonder you can't see that the gathering to Christ is a departure from the earth!

Of course it is...after the tribulation

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Of course it is...after the tribulation

I finally agree with BMN on something

 

[HisdaughterJen]

No, I have two arms, and I am a woman lol.

Will someone else please show this blind woman that Matt 24:29 states emphtically that the sun/moon/stars event happens immediatley after the tribulation???? I have told her 3 times in two days and evidently she is deslexic and getting it bassakwards. Hope you aren't really

I can't see lies...only the truth!!

Of course it is...after the tribulation

OH, MY GOODNESS! It's time for Divine intervention.

Lord, in the name of Jesus I ask that you help Nana see that sun/moon/stars is after the tribulation which = tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars. Thank you, FATHER! Amen!

Why do you think I keep posting it like this:

1. tribulation
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall
3. outpouring of wrath

Look at this list and tell me if the sun/moon darkening is AFTER the tribulation. Look at this list and tell me if the tribulation is before the sun/moon darkening. Now tell me if the answer to those two observations changes the order of events.

 

[LogosRhema]

Oh, so you condone deception then if it is out of ignorance? The opposite of a TRUTH is a LIE. Does believing a lie come from God or the Devil, and does God condone that lie? I say NO!!
2 Tim 4:3-4 ~ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, (Darby; McDonald etc) having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I have more faith now that I know the truth!!

What has been claimed deception, but by you?! Truth is easy relative... Throw as much Bible at me, there will be a pre tribber with just as much. I believe in Christ's return, so do you, how it comes about is truly unknown... Just because you claim it as truth doesn't make it absolute truth, its the truth as you know it. I'm not even saying you're wrong. I just don't buy into those who believe something other than what you prescribed to, as being "deceived" how you are any better than Mr. Hagee? I love mirrors.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

OH, MY GOODNESS! It's time for Divine intervention.

Lord, in the name of Jesus I ask that you help Nana see that sun/moon/stars is after the tribulation which = tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars. Thank you, FATHER! Amen!

Funniest post I have seen all week

Matt 24:29 " Immediately yet after the tribulation of the days, those, the sun shall be being darkened, and the moon not shall be giving the light of it and the Stars shall be falling from the heaven, and the Powers of the Heavens shall be being shaken.

Reve 6:13 And the Stars of the heaven fall into the land as fig-tree is casting the shriveleds of her by great wind being shaken.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

OH, MY GOODNESS! It's time for Divine intervention.

Lord, in the name of Jesus I ask that you help Nana see that sun/moon/stars is after the tribulation which = tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars. Thank you, FATHER! Amen!

Thank you for that prayer. I need all of the revelation I can take, but He may want me to reciprocate intensly on your part lol. Do you see that you are not making sense with this.... sun/moon/stars is after the tribulation which = tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars. You can't have it before and after. That's not scriptural, and Matt 24 bares this out plainly.

Look at this list and tell me if the sun/moon darkening is AFTER the tribulation. Look at this list and tell me if the tribulation is before the sun/moon darkening. Now tell me if the answer to those two observations changes the order of events.

Where your problem is, you have the tribulation in the wrong place on your list. The sun/moon/stars fall AFTER the tribulation. Why can't you understand Matt 24:29? What does that verse tell you when the cosmic events take place? Before or after the tribulation? AFTER tribulation only!!! The tribulation doesn't start until the abomination of desolation occurs. Everything above that is called the beginning of sorrows, and verse 8 even says all these are the beginning of sorrows. All what things? The things He had just mentioned from verse 5-7.
Even Jesus stated after the abomination of desolation verse in Matt 24:21 ~ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Your big problem is the placing of events.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Thank you for that prayer. I need all of the revelation I can take, but He may want me to reciprocate intensly on your part lol. Do you see that you are not making sense with this.... sun/moon/stars is after the tribulation which = tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars. You can't have it before and after. That's not scriptural, and Matt 24 bares this out plainly.


Where your problem is, you have the tribulation in the wrong place on your list. The sun/moon/stars fall AFTER the tribulation. Why can't you understand Matt 24:29? What does that verse tell you when the cosmic events take place? Before or after the tribulation? AFTER tribulation only!!! The tribulation doesn't start until the abomination of desolation occurs. Everything above that is called the beginning of sorrows, and verse 8 even says all these are the beginning of sorrows. All what things? The things He had just mentioned from verse 5-7.
Even Jesus stated after the abomination of desolation verse in Matt 24:21 ~ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Your big problem is the placing of events.

Nana, this is unbelievable!

I need you to help me. Make a list and put "tribulation", "sun/moon darkening", and "outpouring of wrath" on that list in order.

1.
2.
3.

Tell me if the tribulation is before the sun/moon darkening. Saying that the sun/moon darkening is after the tribulation is exactly the same thing as saying the tribulation is before the sun/moon darkening. One is before two = two is after one.


Lord, in the name of Jesus I ask that you help Nana see that sun/moon/stars is after the tribulation which = tribulation is before the sun/moon/stars. Thank you, FATHER! Amen!

Matt 24:29 " Immediately yet after the tribulation of the days, those, the sun shall be being darkened, and the moon not shall be giving the light of it and the Stars shall be falling from the heaven, and the Powers of the Heavens shall be being shaken.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Funniest post I have seen all week

Why, because you think that I need it, or her remark is like the pot calling the kettle black ?