Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Big Mouth Nana]

Everybody here is grinding their own axe. Who here is interested in meaningful inquiry? Everything here has become a vast farce.

One persons "farce" could be anothers revelation I personally don't care if anyone believes me or not, so I don't have an axe to grind lol. I do this site to wile away the boredom. Sometimes I get so bored with this site that I disappear for awhile, and then come back to see what "way out there" thing that someone is saying. I call it entertainment

 

[Breckmin]

He, she, it...whatever...that's beside the point!

Paul said THREE times that there is a departure in that passage.

1. 2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him (departure = catching away to meet Lord in the air. aka rapture), we ask you

2.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure (APOSTASIA/DISCESSIO) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

3.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. (departure)
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

This is amazing. The redundancy is right there in front of you and you
can't see it. No one in their right mind would write this way.

I believe Paul was in his right mind. I believe the text is clear.

Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Give her time. I believe the Lord is working on her. Plus, you never know
who else is reading this thread who may read these posts and be convicted
in their hearts, and teach their children and grandchildren the truth so
that they can prepare other believers for martyrdom. God is faithful.
We will all see Jesus Return.

2nd Coming, not 3rd Coming. Counting to 3 is easier than counting to 7.

In Christ,
Michael

Convicted of what, Breckmin?

Reading your posts, they'll be convinced that the restrainer is not the church but maybe the Holy Spirit or the Romans or maybe Christ or Michael the Archangel.

Paul was VERY clear.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

This is amazing. The redundancy is right there in front of you and you
can't see it. No one in their right mind would write this way.

I believe Paul was in his right mind. I believe the text is clear.

Michael

What is wrong with you? Why are you judging the way I wrote something? If the "redundancy is right there in front of me", then point it out.

If the text is so clear to you Breckmin, then why are you so unsure as to whom the restrainer is? WHO DEPARTS in that passage? Who is gathered to Christ?

Paul said THREE times that there is a departure in that passage.

1. 2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him (departure = catching away to meet Lord in the air. aka rapture), we ask you

2.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure (APOSTASIA/DISCESSIO) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

3.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. (departure)
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I'm sitting here scratching my head as to why you don't understand that the gathering to Christ is the catching away. Do you not understand that when the church is gathered to Christ, it is the "rapture"?

Do you not understand that we are LEAVING at the gathering to Christ? It is a DEPARTURE! Do you understand that? Can we at least agree on that?

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


I'm also thoroughly perplexed as to why you and Covenant Heart are SO caught up in what this lexicon or that commentary said when all you have to do is read the passage. It's weird. You guys get bent out of shape if I don't write it the way you want it written. WEIRD!

 

[Breckmin]

.
1. 2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him (departure = catching away to meet Lord in the air. aka rapture), we ask you

2.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure (APOSTASIA/DISCESSIO) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

The most fascinating thing here is that in the Greek verse 1 is clearly
one event. I would be willing to expect interlinears to even put the
word "by" in there meaning "Coming of the Lord by our gathering together"
because of the following words after the conjunction of "kai."

Verse 1 is clearly one event, and it is clearly the Second Coming, but
somehow you are not seeing this in the original language. Instead you
are using English translations and saying verse 1 contains the rapture.
You are correct. Verse 1 does contain the rapture at the 2nd Coming.

All you are doing by using these verses is continue to show the strength
of the Post trib position. Your "technically" post trib anyway...

The irony is amazing.

Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The most fascinating thing here is that in the Greek verse 1 is clearly
one event. I would be willing to expect interlinears to even put the
word "by" in there meaning "Coming of the Lord by our gathering together"
because of the following words after the conjunction of "kai."

Verse 1 is clearly one event, and it is clearly the Second Coming, but
somehow you are not seeing this in the original language. Instead you
are using English translations and saying verse 1 contains the rapture.
You are correct. Verse 1 does contain the rapture at the 2nd Coming.

All you are doing by using these verses is continue to show the strength
of the Post trib position. Your "technically" post trib anyway...

The irony is amazing.

Michael

That's because, Michael, YOU don't seem to realize that the return of the Lord is the beginning of the Day of the Lord which is followed by his coming on the clouds about 3.5 years later.

The devil reigns during the wrath of God (during the trumpets and bowls) after the Day of the Lord/Wrath has begun.

ALL of that is part of the return of Christ and precedes his coming on the clouds with the angels to destroy the anti-christ, false prophet, and their armies (formed in the 6th bowl of the 7th seal).

Seal #5 = rapture
SEal #6 = sun/moon darken/stars fall, "the day of wrath has come and who shall be able to stand"
Seal #7 = outpouring of wrath which includes the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, the bowls
THEN Christ comes on the clouds with the angels.


....which explains the people's concerns that the Day of the Lord had come which Paul addressed in 2 Thess 2.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Pardon me, my mind is thinking here lol. If the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and He lives on the inside of every believer, He would have to leave with the church. Okay, do you believe that he is coming back down to earth when God pours His Holy Spirit out on Israel ? I don't, because He doesn't leave until the Second Coming after the tribulation. He can't be the restrainer..."the he who now letteth until He be taken out of the way". The Holy Spirit lives on the inside of us, so he isn't going anywhere until we do. He can't be taken out of the way.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Pardon me, my mind is thinking here lol. If the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and He lives on the inside of every believer, He would have to leave with the church. Okay, do you believe that he is coming back down to earth when God pours His Holy Spirit out on Israel ? I don't, because He doesn't leave until after the Second Coming after the tribulation. He can't be the restrainer..."the he who now letteth until He be taken out of the way". The Holy Spirit lives on the inside of us, so he isn't going anywhere until we do. He can't be taken out of the way.

The church is the restrainer and we will do so until God snatches us up and the devil is cast down (confirmed by Rev 6/seals 5-7 and Rev 12)

Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Eph 6:11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.

Eph 6:16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

Eph 6:12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[Breckmin]

the return of the Lord is the beginning of the Day of the Lord which is followed by his coming on the clouds about 3.5 years later.

Based on your inductions and the English language, none of this surprises me.

The devil reigns during the wrath of God (during the trumpets and bowls) after the Day of the Lord/Wrath has begun.

ALL of that is part of the return of Christ and precedes his coming on the clouds with the angels to destroy the anti-christ, false prophet, and their armies (formed in the 6th bowl of the 7th seal).

Your trying to impose rigid time lines regarding seals and the Day of the
Lord and it is confusing you.

Seal #5 = rapture
SEal #6 = sun/moon darken/stars fall, "the day of wrath has come and who shall be able to stand"
Seal #7 = outpouring of wrath which includes the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, the bowls
THEN Christ comes on the clouds with the angels.

Put #5 with the end of #7 (how ironic) and you will finally be closer to
the truth.

Think logically for a second. You are using the "sun/moon darken/stars fall" from what passage???? Where does it say that rapture is in that
passage???

My hopes and prayer are that you will allow the Spirit of God to open
your eyes to the truth here, and don't impose your own agenda.

The Church had the correct position for the first 1850 years. Your
dealing with a position that is less than 165 years old. If it's new,
and it's different, then the red flag should be up!!!
If only DL Moody could have used that principle, perhaps we wouldn't
be having this debate.
John Nelson Darby thought he was on to something, just like you.

You are both not conforming to historical Christianity.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

The church is the restrainer and we will do so until God snatches us up and the devil is cast down (confirmed by Rev 6/seals 5-7 and Rev 12)

What???!!! What you are saying then is, that the church is holding back the Antichrist, and until the church is taken out of the way.. raptured he can't appear. I don't think so!!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Based on your inductions and the English language, none of this surprises me.



Your trying to impose rigid time lines regarding seals and the Day of the
Lord and it is confusing you.



Put #5 with the end of #7 (how ironic) and you will finally be closer to
the truth.

Since when does the number 5 follow the number 7, Breckmin?

Think logically for a second. You are using the "sun/moon darken/stars fall" from what passage???? Where does it say that rapture is in that
passage???

REv 6
5th seal is the giving of white robes (bridal clothes described in Rev 19/clothes of immortality)to the Bride.
6th seal is the sun/moon darkening/stars falling, "Day of wrath has begun"
7th seal is the wrath of God which includes the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls.

My hopes and prayer are that you will allow the Spirit of God to open
your eyes to the truth here, and don't impose your own agenda.

The Church had the correct position for the first 1850 years. Your
dealing with a position that is less than 165 years old. If it's new,
and it's different, then the red flag should be up!!!
If only DL Moody could have used that principle, perhaps we wouldn't
be having this debate.
John Nelson Darby thought he was on to something, just like you.

You are both not conforming to historical Christianity.

In Christ,
Michael

I don't know Moody. I don't know Darby. My agenda is the truth.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What???!!! What you are saying then is, that the church is holding back the Antichrist, and until the church is taken out of the way.. raptured he can't appear. I don't think so!!

That is exactly what I'm saying:

The church is the restrainer and the man of sin cannot be revealed until we are gone. This is what Paul is saying in 2 Thess 2, confirmed by Rev 6, seals 5-7 and Rev 12. We are the white-robed great multitude of Rev 7 who has come out of great tribulation (seals 1-4) and are dwelling in heaven, singing about salvation, when the Day of Wrath/Lord is starting on the earth.
We are the one's dwelling in heaven that the devil slanders (along with Blaspheming God) in Rev 13.

Those that are martyred during the reign of the beast on the Day of the Lord are "the rest of her (spiritual Israel's) offspring" who finally come to belief after we are removed. They will have to prove their devotion to Christ by deeds. They are the 2nd set of martyrs mentioned to the first set of martyrs in seal #5 who must take place before all the martyrs are avenged by God.

Rev 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

 

[Breckmin]

My agenda is the truth.

Then please pray sincerely to your Heavenly Father for protection
from anything that is NOT true with this regard.

I believe He is working in your heart already.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Super Kal]

I don't know Moody. I don't know Darby. My agenda is the truth.

before you go out and making claims about things you supposedly know, maybe you should do some research on what you believe... do some research on the people who developed your teaching... do some research on who exactly the Plymouth Brethren is... do some research on who exactly Cyrus Scofield is.

you sit here and claim you have absolute knowledge, and yet you know absolutely nothing when it comes to its history and background... I try and study all of Revelation, but when it comes to doctrines and teachings such as these, I make sure I do my homework on it, because its background in the history of the church plays a very important part.

until you actually start doing your homework on these things... look, I love you like a sister, HdJ, but... I'm sorry, I just can't take you seriously when it comes to this, because you have no historical background on where you get your info.

You can go ahead and claim the Bible... doesn't change a thing...
non-trinitarianists claim that there is no trinity, and they use the Bible to make their claim... still doesn't make them right.

 

[Breckmin]

What is wrong with you? Why are you judging the way I wrote something?

No. I was clearly referring to Paul's writing in Thess. I was saying he
DIDN'T write that way, because no one in their right mind in the First
Century would have written the way you are trying to wrongfully interpret
it. What you are doing is trying to make it say something that doesn't
make sense. It does make sense. Verse 1 is one event and you have
missed that.

If the "redundancy is right there in front of me", then point it out.

I need to take you to the Greek text so I can show you how foolish
this is. You are trying to take the word "it" and apply it to the
beginning of the verse as though it doesn't apply to the whole verse.
You are trying to say that "it" refers to the 2nd Coming, and that
the "gathering" refers to the rapture. What you don't understand
is that this is one event in the Greek text, and that is why scholars
do not say that the apostasia is the rapture. It would be saying
the "rapture" won't come until the "rapture."
I'm certain most people reading this thread will see this point
clearly. You are trying to "isolate" words like "it" that are English
words in our translation, I have to look and see if this is even in
the text. The problem with what you are doing is called "over
analyzing." Over analyzing is often where a person is "isolating"
premises, and also working with words that have double meanings
that miss the practical application of what is being said. This is
a common thing that happens with young people. If this is what
you are doing than I apologize if I have not been graceful here.

I will have to look at this "it" in the text and then I will respond
further, Lordwilling.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Kŗ§]

I have often wondered if there would be any significant difference between pre-tribbers going through the tribulation then post trib believers..which I am post. The bible states in John 8:32...And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.Does that mean that those who do not see the truth are in more serious peril during the tribulation then those who are post who have received the truth?

If you are not saved before The Tribulation period you will live on the earth during that time if you do not die before the rapture happens. Gods chosen people, who believe in Him, are not appointed to Gods Wrath. We are appointed to tribulations during our lives and without tribulations in our lives we would not have come to repentance. We are not appionted to The Tribulation which is very different than tribulations.

We live on this earth in it’s sinful and fallen state of being. Thus we are affected by our environment as we affect the environment around us. God allows certain tribulations in our lives for many different reasons, some of which we may not completely understand in this life time. God does not punish those who’ve repented and in that manner we who have truly repented will not have to endure His righteous wrath appointed for the unbeliers during The Tribulation period

The reason that I have these questions is because I was pre-trib for 35 years..post for about 5 years now. When I was pre-trib, it seemed like I had less worries about what was coming on the earth because I wouldn't be here. When I first discovered that post trib catching away was the truth, I was in shock for awhile, but now I am at peace knowing what to expect...and actually more grateful to God for showing me the truth since it has sunk in. In 2 Tim 4:3-4 it states this... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Did you expect this to happen over night? If what the bible tells us Is the truth then we must understand that society doesn’t jump off a cliff all at once, it slowly lulls itself into this state over long persiods of time. Those sins have exsisted since the beginning they are not new. People didn’t just wake up one day and say “I think we will sin profusely today”. The bible says “In the last days” when it describes these thrends. This doesn’t mean ONLY in the last days.

If you are pre-trib or post-trib it really doesn’t matter as long as you are obeying the spirit of God and have accepted Jesus as our saviour. If you are a post- trib believer and get raptured before The Tribulation period are you going to tell God He’s made a mistake and to put you back on earth? I doubt it. So, don’t condemn someone who doesn’t believe entirely what you believe. As long as the basic principals of salvation are observed we should just agree to believe differently. The next step for that line of thinking is to say “Anyone who doesn’t believe the way I do is not saved” and we shall not judge others in this manner.

Now I believe that this has been going on since "whoever" started the pre-trib "fable." It has followed a long line of well known bible scholars/teachers such as John Darby, even as most recent, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHay, and even preachers are expounding it on the Christian channels on TV. John Hagee, the pompous hypocrite that he is, said one day while I was watching 3 years ago, that the post trib rapture is the biggest lie that Satan ever perpetrated. He even said..DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT!! I haven't watched him since.

You feel confident in condemning this person for what he’s said for what reason? Pastor Chuck Smith, Brian Broderson, John Courson, Greg Lauri and a host of other well known and respected pastors believe that we will be raptured as a thief in the night before anyone has a clue to what or when it’s going to happen. The word speaks of the rapture in the way of a thief. If we have 7 years of tribulation before the rapture who on earth wouldn’t know by the end what was going on. The bible sets a time line from the signing of the peace treaty. God gave us the exact day count of His arrival. How can he possibly come as a thief if the whole world is going to witness His arrival on the mount of olives? Who’s he suppose to surprise? He’s not going to surprise anyone on that day.

The bible speaks of a second coming and that is what everyone gets confused with the rapture. The rapture is not the arrival of Jesus, it’s Him taking us away with him in the clouds. If you read about the rapture and the second coming you will know that there is a very large and obvious differnce between the two events. So please don’t condemn someone for believing trivial matters differently than you do. The facts remain the same in either scenario: Have they repented? Is Jesus their savior?

Now, I am wondering if people that follow this teaching and believe in a pre-trib rapture are going to be totally blind sided once the tribulation hits. God expects every one of us to search His Word for ourselves, and not rely on the truth of mans gospel from the pulpit, or what we have heard from our families carried down to us. Will this be considered believing a Satanic deception and pay the penalty in the end?

If there is any payment due, Jesus has already paid the price. Do you not understand the concept of Gods grace?

If they can't even see the post trib rapture in the Word, will they even know who the Anti-christ is once he is revealed?

What restrains the Anti-crist from being revealed? I believe the holy spirit that lives within His people “the church” is the restrainer. Once the spirit of God has been removed from the world God will poor out his wrath upon an unbelieving world not to condemn it but to bring repentance to the unbelievers. We Hold the spirit of God within us and that Holy Spirit IS the restrainer.

The bible doesn't really say anything about believing a "time line" lie, but it does say something about believing unsound doctrine. I DO believe that Satan started this lie for a very good reason...what is that reason and for what purpose?

The book of revalation, Daniel and Isaiah describes a time line in extreem detail. I would suggest reading that for the exact time line set up for Jesus’s second coming.

I do believe that those who are full of what Word will know what is going on once this starts..unless they freak out thinking..OH NO, the rapture didn't happen. What do I do now??!! These are just some thoughts that I have had roaming through my head for awhile.

Those who are here after the rapture will realize what mistakes they’ve made and most likely repent. If they don’t then God will poor out His Wrath in hopes to bring them to repentance.

I believe the rapture will come as a thief in the night when no one expects it without warning “before” The Tribulation period begins because that’s what the bible says. If you choose to believe differently it matters little because as long as we are saved by Jesus christ and have the holy spirit living within us it doesn’t really matter “when” we meet Jesus all that matters is that we MEET Him

 

[Super Kal]

edit

 

[Breckmin]

]I do believe that those who are full of what Word will know what is going on once this starts..unless they freak out thinking..OH NO, the rapture didn't happen. What do I do now??!!

First,
thank you for this wonderful fine post. I would like to respond to this
point because I think it is important as far as testimony. Doubt is a
sin, and it is also a poor testimony. If Christians are unsure themselves
because they were wrong about the rapture, then how can they expect
the world to believe that they should repent and not take the mark of
the beast. This is a very important point about being steadfast in your
faith and being a shining light at the point of martyrdom.

I believe there are many many people who will be given the mark against
their will in some ways. Children, babies who grow to children, people
who didn't know what they were doing, etc. We need to WITNESS to
these individuals and TEACH them the power of the Cross.
Our Heavenly Father does NOT condemn by technicality. Just look
at Peter when he denied Christ three times denying Jesus before men.
Yet Peter became one of the greatest apostles. Taking the mark of
the beast is a horrible choice, but imagine those who do not wish to
do so, "are they eternally lost???" What if they remove the mark from
their hand or forehead and receive Christ as personal Savior and Lord
of their life?? Will we deny their FAITH because of technicality??

The days are coming where the world will have to make a choice and
the Lord will separate the wheats from the tares. I believe that if
a person is given the mark of the beast 666 against their will or does
not wish to be apart of the world's system that they can remove that
mark and here it is "Trust that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a "great
enough" Sacrifice for Sins to forgive them, EVEN for taking the mark!!!
There is NO greater power to forgive sins than the Cross of Jesus.
The Cross of Jesus is more meaningful to the Father than them taking
the mark and changing their minds and repenting and trusting in Jesus.
God will still be at work in the hearts of men, and we will be a testimony
to the world as we give our lives in martyrdom and the world beholds
our testimonies. I believe Christians who are doctors will even work
underground to remove the mark of the beast 666 from those who do
not want it. General deduction. It has been appointed once to die
and then comes judgment. If you have not died, then there is still a
chance for you to repent. We need to teach those who have taken
the mark of the beast that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a great enough
Sacrifice for their sins, that they too can repent, remove the mark,
and have forgiveness.

We all need to pray for God to protect us from that which is not true.
The Power of the Cross is the most Powerful Event in the Universe to
Forgive Sins. Even those who have made a bad choice or received
that mark against their will by parents and such. We need to be
strong witnesses in front of them so that they will be cut to the heart
and have "faith" in the One True Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Our
Eternal King Who will Return in the clouds and reign. If we are
unsure ourselves, then how do we expect them to repent.

I hope this message is something every believer who reads will pray about.
God is doing a work in the trenches of the church to prepare what will soon
come upon the world. We need to preach the Cross, even to those who
have taken the mark. They are still alive, and the deduction removes
the idea that God could not forgive them.

In Christ, always,
Michael

 

[Kŗ§]

could you say that without the coding?

Try it now I'm sorry that it was recording the coding I used in Microsoft word 2007