Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Do I Have To Print Off--

an hard copy of this thread and sent it by registered mail to Dr. Lof at his Glen Waverly address to get his attention on this?

When you assign words the meaning you want regardless of what the best lexicons say, you refuse the authority and word of Jesus Christ.

Matt 24:6 Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles and hearings of battles. Be ye seeing! no be being alarmed, for is binding/dei <1163> (5904) to be Becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), but not as yet is the End/teloV <5056>.

Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out Voice great from the sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has Become"/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 21:6]

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Do I Have To Print Off--

an hard copy of this thread and sent it by registered mail to Dr. Lof at his Glen Waverly address to get his attention on this?

When you assign words the meaning you want regardless of what the best lexicons say, you refuse the authority and word of Jesus Christ.

Who?

Who cares what Dr. Lof at his Glen Waverly address thinks? What did Paul say, Covenant Heart?

What is the gathering to Christ?

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


It's a departure. The church is the restrainer that must be removed before the man of sin can be revealed.

 

[Covenant Heart]

That's the rub.

By the way--he is the site owner.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

ABIC, the promise to the OT saints was that they would be resurrected by the same blood, at the same time.

Mark 10:31 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first.

this is dealing with a calling[call to salvation]
who was called first ... Jews....
vs 20 give clue to what is last recieving Eternal life = glorification dan 12:2,11-12
who was called last ... gentiles first to recieve eternal life.. jn 5:11-14 but we wait till the rapture to recieve glorification come at rapture.. before the Jews

.. and even then, Christ was among them in the times of the OT (Hebrews 11:9-10)... they weer also promised a heavenly city (Hebrew 11:13,16) of course that hasn't been fulfilled yet..

heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

here is two different groups in heaven in vs 23
firstborn is the church.. romans 8:23
just men made perfect are believers from Adam to Abraham

where are the Jews... On earth .. Duet 30:5-6, ezek 37:14

. as to the re-establishing of a Jewish temple, and God re-instating sacrifices, that ordinance was abolished when Christ became the ultimate sacrifice (Galatians 3:23-25; Matthew 5:17-18)

having said that, not ALL descendants of Abraham are his children, and not ALL who are descended from Israel are FROM Israel (Romans 9:6-7)...

1 jn 3:9-10

as a matter of fact, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matters to God... only a new creation (Galatians 6:15)
the Word of God calls those who follow thuis rule the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16)
only those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29)
the Bible even says a Jew is not one who is outwardly and the circumcision is physical... he is a Jew if he is one inwardly, with a circumcision of the heart, and not the letter (Romans 2:28-29)

their promise WILL be fulfilled at the Second Coming, which happens AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31)


here's a few questions for you... since Christ was present in the Old Testament (Heberws 11:9-10), answer this:

where is Christ in heb 11:9-10....

Has the OT saint partaken of the blood of Christ shed for sins? (John 6:53-54: Matthew 26:26-28)

God blood covered all sin 1 jn 2:2... Matt 26:26-28 was dealing with 150 disciples in the upper room and these guys were going to be the first blocks on the foundation of the body

Does the Spirit of Christ dwell in the OT saint? (John 6:56; Romans 8:9)

Only NT saints get this at this present time .... Dan 12:2,11-12, rev 12:6 OT law saints have to wait till 75 days after the 2nd coming

Are ALL the saints of ALL the ages ONE BODY, drinking of the SAME Spirit? (1 Cor. 10:16-17; 1 Cor. 12:13)

During this dispensation ....

Do you follow Adams rules to eat .... gen 2:15-17
do you follow Noah's rules to eat .... gen 9:3-4
Do you follow the Jews under law rules....... lev 11... whole chapter
Do you follow the churches rules... 1 tim 4:3-5, romans 14:20-23, 1 cor 8:12

will you answer these???

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Do I Have To Print Off--

an hard copy of this thread and sent it by registered mail to Dr. Lof at his Glen Waverly address to get his attention on this?

When you assign words the meaning you want regardless of what the best lexicons say, you refuse the authority and word of Jesus Christ.

When "Man" looks to "Man" for their biblical answers, they are in serious trouble. That throws the Holy Spirit under the bus. In fact, when man looks to man to know about God, I doubt if they are truely saved.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

amen..... gotta compare scripture with scripture

 

[Covenant Heart]

Since This Is What You Choose To Believe--

Here are the references where apostasia is used, both in the LXX, and the GNT. Since you insist that the word means 'gathering,' this is what you get. Since your rendition is correct, this is what you MUST believe:

Joshua 22:22 The Mighty One, God, the LORD, the Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows, and may Israel itself know. If it was in [gathering], or if in a [gathering] act against the LORD do not save us this day!

2 Chronicles 28:19 the LORD humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had brought about a lack of restraint in Judah and was very [gathered] to the LORD.

2 Chronicles 29:19 all the utensils which King Ahaz had discarded during his reign in his [gathering], we have prepared and consecrated; and behold, they are before the altar of the LORD."

2 Chronicles 33:19 His prayer also and how God was entreated by him, and all his sin, his [gathering], and the sites on which he built high places and erected the Asherim and the carved images

Ezra 4:19 A decree has been issued by me, and a search has been made and it has been discovered that that city has risen up against the kings in past days, that [gathering] and [gathering] have been perpetrated in it.

Jeremiah 2:19 Your own wickedness will correct you, And your [gathering] will reprove you; Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter For you to forsake the LORD your God,

Acts 21:21 they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to [gathering] Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [gathering] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

It makes sense--No?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

That's the rub.

By the way--he is the site owner.

You're missing the forest for the trees.

Apostasia means departure. Or, technically, "to move away from place of standing". Paul said, "Concerning the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him...." What is the gathering to Christ according to Paul?

It is a catching away to meet Christ in the air. THAT is a departure!

The church is restraining the revealing of the man of sin. When we are removed, the devil is cast down and reigns for 42 months.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

amen..... gotta compare scripture with scripture

Doesn't everyone here?

 

[Covenant Heart]

'When "Man" looks to "Man" for their biblical answers, they are in serious trouble. That throws the Holy Spirit under the bus.'

 

[Covenant Heart]

Strong never claimed that. Agustus Strong was a postmillennialist.

Remember--because you CHOOSE to believe what you say, this is what you get, Jen:

Joshua 22:22 The Mighty One, God, the LORD, the Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows, and may Israel itself know. If it was in [gathering], or if in a [gathering] act against the LORD do not save us this day!

2 Chronicles 28:19 the LORD humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had brought about a lack of restraint in Judah and was very [gathered] to the LORD.

2 Chronicles 29:19 all the utensils which King Ahaz had discarded during his reign in his [gathering], we have prepared and consecrated; and behold, they are before the altar of the LORD."

2 Chronicles 33:19 His prayer also and how God was entreated by him, and all his sin, his [gathering], and the sites on which he built high places and erected the Asherim and the carved images

Ezra 4:19 A decree has been issued by me, and a search has been made and it has been discovered that that city has risen up against the kings in past days, that [gathering] and [gathering] have been perpetrated in it.

Jeremiah 2:19 Your own wickedness will correct you, And your [gathering] will reprove you; Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter For you to forsake the LORD your God,

Acts 21:21 they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to [gathering] Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [gathering] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Since This Is What You Choose To Believe--

Here are the references where apostasia is used, both in the LXX, and the GNT. Since you insist that the word means 'gathering,' this is what you get. Since your rendition is correct, this is what you MUST believe:



It makes sense--No?

What is wrong with you? We aren't talking about the word "gathering" in scripture.

We are talking about 2 Thess 2 and what Paul taught the gathering to Christ is.

HNV version:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? (Yes, 1 Thess 4:13-18)
2Th 2:6Now you know (Paul thinks he just told us) what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;


Here's what Paul taught us:

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Rendering the Greek word APOSTASIA as apostasy or falling away from the faith makes the restrainer a mystery and the subject of the passage (our gathering to Christ) unanswered.

Rendering the Greek word APOSTASIA as departure makes the restrainer the church and the subject of the passage (our gathering to Christ) fully explained.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

It's a departure. The church is the restrainer that must be removed before the man of sin can be revealed.

Who is he revealed to Jen if the church is gone, the blinded remnant? Nope, Christ is revealed to the remnant. The Antichrist is revealed to the church!!

 

[Covenant Heart]

You Insist Upon Translating...


...'apostasia' as departure. So again--since this is what you choose to believe the word 'apostasia' means, this is what you get:

Joshua 22:22 The Mighty One, God, the LORD, the Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows, and may Israel itself know. If it was in [departure], or if in a [departure] act against the LORD do not save us this day!

2 Chronicles 28:19 the LORD humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had brought about a lack of restraint in Judah and was very [departured] to the LORD.

2 Chronicles 29:19 all the utensils which King Ahaz had discarded during his reign in his [departure], we have prepared and consecrated; and behold, they are before the altar of the LORD."

2 Chronicles 33:19 His prayer also and how God was entreated by him, and all his sin, his [departure], and the sites on which he built high places and erected the Asherim and the carved images.

Ezra 4:19 A decree has been issued by me, and a search has been made and it has been discovered that that city has risen up against the kings in past days, that [departure] and [departure] have been perpetrated in it.

Jeremiah 2:19 Your own wickedness will correct you, And your [departure] will reprove you; Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter For you to forsake the LORD your God,

Acts 21:21 they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to [departure] Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [departure] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed.


Since you insist that 'apostasia' means 'departure,' translate it consistently, or else accept the lexical meaning.

All of those texts use the word, 'apostasia.' If as you say, 'apostasia' means 'depart,' I expect you to hold to that meaning in each of these cases, no matter how absurd the meaning.

From 2Chr--reign in his departure
From Ezra--that [departure] and [departure] have been perpetrated in it.

If you agree to this, I'll consider your claim that apostasia in 2Th means 'departure.' You can't make words mean what your expectations demand you to think. You tailor belief to the text, not the text to fit your belief.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Who is he revealed to Jen if the church is gone, the blinded remnant? Nope, Christ is revealed to the remnant. The Antichrist is revealed to the church!!

What makes you say that? I mean what scripture says that the anti-christ is revealed to the church?

Revealed means "starts his reign" or "does his thing".

Who does Paul say is "restraining" that revealing of the man of sin?

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Doesn't everyone here?

nope some like putting there feelings, ideas, opinions

does any of that matter... no

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You Insist Upon Translating...


...'apostasia' as departure. So again--since this is what you choose to believe the word 'apostasia' means, this is what you get:

Joshua 22:22 The Mighty One, God, the LORD, the Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows, and may Israel itself know. If it was in [departure], or if in a [departure] act against the LORD do not save us this day!

2 Chronicles 28:19 the LORD humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had brought about a lack of restraint in Judah and was very [departured] to the LORD.

2 Chronicles 29:19 all the utensils which King Ahaz had discarded during his reign in his [departure], we have prepared and consecrated; and behold, they are before the altar of the LORD."

2 Chronicles 33:19 His prayer also and how God was entreated by him, and all his sin, his [departure], and the sites on which he built high places and erected the Asherim and the carved images.

Ezra 4:19 A decree has been issued by me, and a search has been made and it has been discovered that that city has risen up against the kings in past days, that [departure] and [departure] have been perpetrated in it.

Jeremiah 2:19 Your own wickedness will correct you, And your [departure] will reprove you; Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter For you to forsake the LORD your God,

Acts 21:21 they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to [departure] Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [departure] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Since you insist that 'apostasia' means 'departure,' translate it consistently, or else accept the lexical meaning.

Paul was using a simile as Paul often did.

The gathering to Christ is a departure from the earth.
To be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord.
To be at home in the body is to be away from the Lord.


2Cr 5:8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.


2Cr 5:6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.


Paul even talked about his own death as a departure.

Phl 1:23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;


To be gathered to Christ is to be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air according to Paul.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

What makes you say that? I mean what scripture says that the anti-christ is revealed to the church?

Revealed means "starts his reign" or "does his thing".

Who does Paul say is "restraining" that revealing of the man of sin?

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

It doesn't say a thing about who is restraining him. Revealed does not mean starts his reign or does his thing. Revealed means something that was hidden is made manifest....like the Word for instance being brought to light. Where do you come up with this stuff anyway?
Do you actually believe that God was so dense that He told us about the Antichrist being revealed in His Word for no reason? Who else reads the bible and for what purpose would it serve anyone else but the church? NO ONE.

 

[Super Kal]

Do I Have To Print Off--

an hard copy of this thread and sent it by registered mail to Dr. Lof at his Glen Waverly address to get his attention on this?

When you assign words the meaning you want regardless of what the best lexicons say, you refuse the authority and word of Jesus Christ.

i think it would help

 

[Super Kal]

amen..... gotta compare scripture with scripture

and yet you compare scripture with the teachings of man, for the Bible says we are one in Christ (Gal. 3:27-29)