Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[A Brother In Christ]

or you're clinging to the 20th century teaching of Dispensationalism that Irving, Darby, Scofield, and Bullinger taught... a doctrine that was never taught by ANY of the Ante-Nicene Church fathers... a doctrine that not only promotes escapism, but also supports favoritism, something that God sees as sin.

Define elder... by scripture... please

What is a mystery to the OT Jew and not the church...? by scripture

What are Jew looking for... ezek 30:3 Day of the Lord
What is the church not... 1 thes 5:1-2

What are the better promises in heb 11:39-40 compared to Heb 11:1-38

If we recieve the best promises 2 peter 1:4 who get the better and good promises?

What is the grace in 1 peter 1:13 that at His coming ... Mystery of Rapture

When do Jew recieve Eternal life... dan 12:2,11-12
When does the Church get eternal life... 1 jn 5:11-14


Will you answer these .... or ignore them....

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

It says the tribes of the earth mourn before the coming on the clouds.

Of course it does. They see His sign first. They go through the tribulation with the church!! When they see Christ coming in the clouds they are going to know for sure who He is finally!! John 19:34-37 ~ But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him..those resurrected who killed Jesus that will go to eternal damnation and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

compare to:

Amo 8:9"In that day," declares the Sovereign Lord, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Amo 8:10I will turn your religious feasts into mourning and all your singing into weeping. I will make all of you wear sackcloth and shave your heads. I will make that time like mourning for an only son and the end of it like a bitter day.

You know what is obvious Jen? You take any old scripture and try to make it fit your own personal Eschatology. You haven't a clue on what "rightly dividing" the word is. Maybe one of these days God will hit you over the head with the truth!

What makes you believe that the guy in Daniel 9:27 is the anti-christ?

What "HE" would cause the abomination that maketh desolate? No one else in the NT could fulfill this other then the AC. What makes you think that he isn't?? Please don't give me some 70 AD crock. Then I will know for sure that you are more into Preterisim then not and it will explain a whole bunch to many, including me.

Isn't 9:27 talking about Israel and their dispersion?

No. Has and end to sins been made, reconciliation for iniquity, everlasting righteousness, and annoint the Most Holy in the preceeding verse 25????? You can't pick out one verse out of a whole chapter like you do and expect to get the correct meaning

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Just For The Record...

Strong is no replacement for a lexicon.

What Strong provides is the barest outline of two or three of the more common usages of a given word, and those are offered without context at that. Departure? Departure from what? Departure from authority? THAT conforms to the lexical material I cited.

Lets follow this.

The A&G Lexicon is hundreds of pages in length. The Theological Word Book of the New Testament is ten large volumes in length. To dismiss exhaustive, standard references in favor of two or three scant lines from Strong is not shoddy scholarship; it is fundamentally dishonest.

Making God's word mean whatever we say that it means itself constitutes such apostasy as rebels against God and his authoritative word. That is a 'departure,' meaning a departure from faith. Ultimately, our handling of these things becomes itself an obedience issue.

There are people on these CF fora who actually know their stuff. At least one member teaches NT Greek. Another has served on a Bible translation committee. To demand that those with such training affirm ignorant bigotries in the name of fidelity won't cut it.

It's time to cut the lipservice and give Jesus Christ the submission due him.

That is the issue here.

To be mistaken in one's eschatological expectations (and who knows ALL the truth) is one thing. To slander God's word with stupid, insipid lies is quite another.

It's time the difference was recognized.

Departure from the earth, Covenant Heart.

The gathering to Christ is a departure from the earth as Paul taught.

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.



2Th 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,


2Th 2:5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

No its departure... strongs 646 noun form 868 verb form

verb form defines the word....
examples
Luke 2:37,4:13,13:27
Acts 12:10, 15:38, 19:9,22:29,
2 cor 12:8
2 tim 2:19
Heb 3:12
1 tim 4:1

departure from what is in context

Just For The Record...

Strong is no replacement for a lexicon.

What Strong provides is the barest outline of two or three of the more common usages of a given word, and those are offered without context at that. Departure? Departure from what? Departure from authority? THAT conforms to the lexical material I cited.

Lets follow this.

The A&G Lexicon is hundreds of pages in length. The Theological Word Book of the New Testament is ten large volumes in length. To dismiss exhaustive, standard references in favor of two or three scant lines from Strong is not shoddy scholarship; it is fundamentally dishonest.

Making God's word mean whatever we say that it means itself constitutes such apostasy as rebels against God and his authoritative word. That is a 'departure,' meaning a departure from faith. Ultimately, our handling of these things becomes itself an obedience issue.

There are people on these CF fora who actually know their stuff. At least one member teaches NT Greek. Another has served on a Bible translation committee. To demand that those with such training affirm ignorant bigotries in the name of fidelity won't cut it.

It's time to cut the lipservice and give Jesus Christ the submission due him.

That is the issue here.

To be mistaken in one's eschatological expectations (and who knows ALL the truth) is one thing. To slander God's word with stupid, insipid lies is quite another.

It's time the difference was recognized.

I do not know who translated the bible from Greek to english

But when the same word in the greek is translated departure in 10 places .. ones gotta think about it

transliterated is what they did with 2 thes 2:3 ... apostasy

which is write the greek out in english

By the way ... My Pastor and my brother know greek and hebrew
4 years of school studies ... but what does that matter

still have to deal with the same word translated in other locations in the bible

 

[Super Kal]

1 Th 4:15-16
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Yes it does say the tribes mourn before He comes on the clouds. They see His sign first, so they know it's Him already so they are mourning. I read that wrong.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No it doesn't say the tribes mourn before He comes on the clouds. They see His sign first, so they know it's Him already. I read that wrong. They mourn when they see Him coming on the clouds!!!!!

That is the way I see it

Jeremiah 4:13 Behold! as clouds He shall ascend and as sweeping chariots of Him they are fleet from eagles/vultures horses of Him.
Woe! to us that we are laid-waste!

Reve 1:7 Behold! He is coming/ercetai <2064> (5736) with the Clouds [Jeremiah 4:13]

Reve 9:12 The Woe the one departs, behold! is coming/ercetai <2064> (5736) still two woes after these

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Of course it does!!! They go through the tribulation with the church!! When they see Christ coming in the clouds they are going to know for sure who He is finally!! John 19:34-37 ~ But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him..those resurrected who killed Jesus that will go to eternal damnation and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


You know what is obvious Jen? You take any old scripture and try to make it fit your own personal Eschatology. You haven't a clue on what "rightly dividing" the word is. Maybe one of these days God will hit you over the head with the truth!
What "HE" would cause the abomination that maketh desolate? No one else in the NT could fulfill this other then the AC. What makes you think that he isn't?? Please don't give me some 70 AD crock. Then I will know for sure that you are more into Preterisim then not and it will explain a whole bunch to many, including me.


No. Has and end to sins been made, reconciliation for iniquity, everlasting righteousness, and annoint the Most Holy in the preceeding verse 25????? You can't pick out one verse out of a whole chapter like you do and expect to get the correct meaning

The Romans only used up 3 1/2 years of the final seven...."in the midst of the seven". Apparently there is an abandonment of Israel to allow the church to come in and then the final 3.5 years of the final seven happen which is the judgment and wrath of God to include the beasts, the trumpets, the bowls which is followed by the coming of Christ.

Check out the thread I started about it. It might explain a little better than what I've written here.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

1 Th 4:15-16
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

How many "dead in Christ" are there right now, Super Kal?

REv 6, seal 5 shows two sets of martyrs. The first set is given her white robes and told MORE martyrs happen before final judgment.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes it doesn't say the tribes mourn before He comes on the clouds. They see His sign first, so they know it's Him already so they are mourning. I read that wrong.

And what is that sign? How long do they mourn from the time they see the sign until he comes on the clouds?

 

[Super Kal]

ABIC, the promise to the OT saints was that they would be resurrected by the same blood, at the same time... and even then, Christ was among them in the times of the OT (Hebrews 11:9-10)... they weer also promised a heavenly city (Hebrew 11:13,16) of course that hasn't been fulfilled yet... as to the re-establishing of a Jewish temple, and God re-instating sacrifices, that ordinance was abolished when Christ became the ultimate sacrifice (Galatians 3:23-25; Matthew 5:17-18)

having said that, not ALL descendants of Abraham are his children, and not ALL who are descended from Israel are FROM Israel (Romans 9:6-7)...
as a matter of fact, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matters to God... only a new creation (Galatians 6:15)
the Word of God calls those who follow thuis rule the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16)
only those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29)
the Bible even says a Jew is not one who is outwardly and the circumcision is physical... he is a Jew if he is one inwardly, with a circumcision of the heart, and not the letter (Romans 2:28-29)

their promise WILL be fulfilled at the Second Coming, which happens AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31)


here's a few questions for you... since Christ was present in the Old Testament (Heberws 11:9-10), answer this:


Has the OT saint partaken of the blood of Christ shed for sins? (John 6:53-54: Matthew 26:26-28)
Does the Spirit of Christ dwell in the OT saint? (John 6:56; Romans 8:9)
Are ALL the saints of ALL the ages ONE BODY, drinking of the SAME Spirit? (1 Cor. 10:16-17; 1 Cor. 12:13)

 

[Covenant Heart]

Tell Me Something!

Do you think that your pastor and brother are the only people around here who have studied Hebrew and Greek?

Did you not read that at least one CF member teaches NT Greek?

Did you not read that at least one CF member has served on a translation committee?

To repeat myself...do you think that your pastor and brother are the only people around here who have studied Hebrew and Greek?

Know what's curious?

I just did a wildcard search on avpostasi,a using Bibleworks for Windoze. Guess what! It occurs all of 10 times! Now come to find out, all 10 references mean 'departure.' Not departure from faith in the sense of rebellion against the word, but in the sense of a theological aberration called 'the rapture.'

Which brings me back to where I started.

Lexicons mean nothing. Words mean nothing. Scripture means nothing. Jesus Christ means nothing. God means nothing. Why?

Because we're going to dismiss lexicons, grammars, syntactical outlines and the like, and say that words mean what we say they mean--because we know the truth.

That, I call apostasy.

 

[Super Kal]

wait... CH, with that search, you just confused me again...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I do not know who translated the bible from Greek to english

But when the same word in the greek is translated departure in 10 places .. ones gotta think about it

transliterated is what they did with 2 thes 2:3 ... apostasy

which is write the greek out in english

By the way ... My Pastor and my brother know greek and hebrew
4 years of school studies ... but what does that matter

still have to deal with the same word translated in other locations in the bible

Tell Me Something!

Do you think that your pastor and brother are the only people around here who have studied Hebrew and Greek?

Did you not read that at least one CF member teaches NT Greek?

Did you not read that at least one CF member has served on a translation committee?

To repeat myself...do you think that your pastor and brother are the only people around here who have studied Hebrew and Greek?

Know what's curious?

I just did a wildcard search on avpostasi,a using Bibleworks for Windoze. Guess what! It occurs all of 10 times! Now come to find out, all 10 references mean 'departure.' Not departure from faith in the sense of rebellion against the word, but in the sense of a theological aberration called 'the rapture.'

Which brings me back to where I started.

Lexicons mean nothing. Words mean nothing. Scripture means nothing. Jesus Christ means nothing. God means nothing. Why?

Because we're going to dismiss lexicons, grammars, syntactical outlines and the like, and say that words mean what we say they mean--because we know the truth.

That, I call apostasy.

departure.... from what in 2 thes 2:3

faith is not listed at all

context .... goes beack to 1 thes 4:16-18
which happens before the day of the LORD


by the way why are you yelling

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

And what is that sign? How long do they mourn from the time they see the sign until he comes on the clouds?

The way it reads it is right before He comes. The verse before that says this..Matt 24:27 ~ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Maybe that is going to be the sign or just how very fast this is going to be. I really don't know. The only other sign that I know about is when Christ was born and the star appeared. Maybe it will again. If anyone else has the answer to this, I would be interested in knowing.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Tell Me Something!

Do you think that your pastor and brother are the only people around here who have studied Hebrew and Greek?

Did you not read that at least one CF member teaches NT Greek?

Did you not read that at least one CF member has served on a translation committee?

To repeat myself...do you think that your pastor and brother are the only people around here who have studied Hebrew and Greek?

Know what's curious?

I just did a wildcard search on avpostasi,a using Bibleworks for Windoze. Guess what! It occurs all of 10 times! Now come to find out, all 10 references mean 'departure.' Not departure from faith in the sense of rebellion against the word, but in the sense of a theological aberration called 'the rapture.'

Which brings me back to where I started.

Lexicons mean nothing. Words mean nothing. Scripture means nothing. Jesus Christ means nothing. God means nothing. Why?

Because we're going to dismiss lexicons, grammars, syntactical outlines and the like, and say that words mean what we say they mean--because we know the truth.

That, I call apostasy.

WOW, are you on your soap box, or what?

There's one thing that trumps your Greek teacher and your translation committee and everything else for that matter.

God gave us His Spirit and told us HE would teach us.

All of us are a work in progress and not one of us has all the answers. We are all seeking and striving for the truth.

Those who hear the Spirit or who have asked God for insight all hear the same thing because we are taught by the same teacher. IF you are waiting for a Greek teacher to tell you that Paul was talking about the departure of the church to meet the Lord in the air before you'll believe that's what Paul was talking about, then I'm very sorry for you.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The way it reads it is right before He comes. The verse before that says this..Matt 24:27 ~ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Maybe that is going to be the sign or just how very fast this is going to be. I really don't know. The only other sign that I know about is when Christ was born and the star appeared. Maybe it will again. If anyone else has the answer to this, I would be interested in knowing.

Me too! I haven't asked God for insight on this one. Interesting, though, isn't it?

 

[Super Kal]

so let me get this straight... according to your standards, before John Nelson Darby, no one in the eschatological field was inspired by God?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Lexicons mean nothing. Words mean nothing. Scripture means nothing. Jesus Christ means nothing. God means nothing. Why?

Because we're going to dismiss lexicons, grammars, syntactical outlines and the like, and say that words mean what we say they mean--because we know the truth.

That, I call apostasy.

I dismiss all numbers related to words in the Greek, Strongs or whatever. I DO not dismiss Jesus Christ, God, or..and I'll throw in the Holy Spirit for good measure. They are the only ones with the truth that we need!!!!!! They can take a wrong rendering of THEIR Word and make it get into OUR hearts the correct way. Oh, I agree that the apostasy is here, and has been for many moons.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Do I Have To Print Off--

an hard copy of this thread and sent it by registered mail to Dr. Lof at his Glen Waverly address to get his attention on this?

When you assign words the meaning you want regardless of what the best lexicons say, you refuse the authority and word of Jesus Christ.