Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Breckmin]

I don't know if Big Mouth Nana is asserting anything about Obama, but "please..."
he is not the anti-Christ.

He needs our prayers as he begins to lead our country. God can continue to
change his heart and make him even more conservative. Look who he chose
to pray. Pray for him, Nana. He is definitely not the anti-Christ because he
is attracted to women.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Oboma is not the beast ... future. Great Trib player

But as for an antichrist we have them all over the place

 

[HisdaughterJen]

How can it be the millennium Jen when even Satan is bound for 1000 years which is the millennium? Satan is in control of the beast (s) remember (Rev 20:2)? There is peace during this time as there will be no Devil creating havoc, and we are reigning with Christ those 1000 years.

It is 1000 years. The Day of the Lord is a millennium.
The Kingdom of God begins in heaven, then on the earth. The devil is cast out of heavenly realms and down to the earth.
Remember the two passages about heaven and earth? Those in heaven are rejoicing that the Kingdom of God has come about 3 1/2 years before it is on earth.

Show me what you are referring to. The only trumpets that I find are during the tribulation when the angels sound them 1-7. There are 7 angels in Rev 15 who have the 7 last plagues filled with the wrath of God, and the 7 golden vials of the wrath of God. We aren't here as that is His total outpouring of His wrath.

Those are the ones.

The 6th seal is the sun/moon darkening (AFTER THE TRIBULATION) at the beginning of the Day of Wrath.
THEN:
The 7th seal is opened and all of this happens:
trumpet 1 = hail, fire, blood so that 1/3 grass, trees burned up
trumpet 2 = big "meteor-type thing", so that 1/3 sea to blood
trumpet 3 = fresh water bitter so that many people die
trumpet 4 = 1/3 of light diminished
trumpet 5 = devil releases locusts who bother people for 5 months
trumpet 6 = beast wages war with 200 million army and kills 1/3 of the earth
bowl 1 = sores on people with the mark
bowl 2 = salt water to blood
bowl 3 = fresh water to blood
bowl 4 = sun scorches
bowl 5 = darkness
bowl 6 = gathering of the beasts armies for armageddon

trumpet 7/bowl 7 = thunder, lightning, hail, earthquake, Kingdom of God on earth

My point is that ALL of the above is the judgment and wrath of God on the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath and happens when the 7th seal is opened. After the 7th trumpet/7th bowl of the 7th seal, Christ comes with the angels to destroy the army formed against Him (in the 6th bowl of the 7th seal) and all the evil.

Yes, this is referring to the resurrection immediately following the tribulation. The "come, my people, and enter into thy chambers" are the remnant and the bride. Recall that Jesus said that those that be in Judeah to flee to the mountains (Mark 13:14)? This is right after the abomination of desolation with the beast. When I first read these verses, I pictured in my mind all others hiding in their houses like when the death angel passed through the streets of Egypt. That is what these angels will be that have the trumpets and vials..death angels, but man still has a chance to repent during this time.

The tribulation is different than the judgment and wrath of God. Jesus said that the tribulation is immediately before the sun/moon darken/stars fall in Matt 24.
Compare that to Rev 6. The sun/moon darken/stars fall is seal #6, therefore the tribulation is before that, which would make the tribulation, seals 1-4.

We have been through this before. The departure is not the church leaving. It is the apostasy, falling away from the truth.

What did Paul teach the "gathering to Christ" entails?

2Th 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


We are leaving the earth. We will be given glorified bodies, "clothed with immortality" (given white robes), and we'll be caught up to meet Christ in the air.

The sun/moon darkening is during the tribulation right before Christ returns....
Matt 24:29-30 ~ Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....He's only coming in the clouds one time.

The sun/moon darkening/stars falling is AFTER the tribulation according to Jesus in Matt 24, confirmed by Rev 6.

What do you think "all the tribes of the earth mourn" means...and how long do they mourn?

Amo 8:9"In that day," declares the Sovereign Lord, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.
Amo 8:10I will turn your religious feasts into mourning and all your singing into weeping. I will make all of you wear sackcloth and shave your heads.I will make that time like mourning for an only son and the end of it like a bitter day.

Acts 2:19-20 ~ And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable day of the Lord come: Notice how close the Second Coming and the Day of the Lord are between these two verses? Right on it!!!

The second coming is the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Christ coming on the clouds happens 3 1/2 years later, after the trumpets, the bowls, the beasts, the two witnesses.

Compare that to Rev 6.
Seal #6 = sun/moon darkening/stars falling, "Day of Wrath has begun"
Seal #7 = trumpets, beasts, two witnesses, bowls
THEN Jesus comes with the angels to destroy the army THAT FORMED AGAINST HIM IN THE 6TH BOWL and all the evil.

Can't get any plainer time line wise then this. You didn't answer my question on who the Antichrist is going to be revealed to if the remnant are blinded during the tribulation when the beast reigns???

The world and all who were not born again when Christ appeared for the church.

 

[Breckmin]

2Th 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


We are leaving the earth. We will be given glorified bodies, "clothed with immortality" (given white robes), and we'll be caught up to meet Christ in the air.

Amazing, but it is all right in front of you. Keep reading to I Thess 5:23.
How do we need to be made complete "if" we are already in glorified bodies for 7 years????

Ask yourself another basic question. How is it that the dead "in Christ"
rise first, IF you have Christians dying during the tribulation???

General observation (Deduction rather than the "induction" of Pretrib)to
ask next is "Why are born-again Christians being excluded from the
Body of Christ, the bride, the church, etc?" Trying applying that concept
to Matthew 25, 22 and various places.... How is it that tribulational
believers are excluded from being part of the "bride?"

Let's try another one, since there are so many to choose from.
Read Revelation 11:18!!
Ask yourself, how is it possible for "and Thy Wrath Came" as well
as "a time for the dead to be judged" (are they not dying during the
tribulation?) BEFORE the rewards of Christians and prophets to be
able to be in glorified bodies??? This doesn't make any sense.
If the dead are judged at the end of the tribulation, THEN so must
the reward of Christians be at the end of the tribulation. Use that
as a hermeneutic all through Matthew and you will see that the
text is quite clear.

The rapture takes place at the end of the tribulation as does the
rewarding of believers.

BTW, the list goes on.... (Look at the purpose of the 7 trumpets
in the Old Testament and its relationship to gathering for war).
Look at the walls of Jericho. (That would be induction, BTW, but
not all induction leads to error it is just that induction leaves open
the possibility of error).
Examples:

Inductions: 1. Noah being delivered from the flood so we will be
delivered from the tribulation
2. Moses led them out of Egypt so we will be led out of the Trib.
(really this is symbolic of a believer being delivered from the world)
3. John ascended to heaven in Rev. 4 (observation, he didn't come
back in Rev. 19) so we will ascend in the rapture as John ascended

Deductions: 1. All Christians are called to be faithful and preach the gospel even if it means suffering
2. All Christians are part of the Body of Christ, the One True Church
the perfect blameless Bride of Christ and no born-again believer should
be excluded (a believer is part of the church body)
3. All Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and with an outpouring
of the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is active in ALL believers lifes especially
openning the eyes of tribulational believers. (who should be a part of
the church)
4. Christians have suffered all over the world and are enduring times
of tribulation in countries where Christianity is prohibited. God does
not save Christians from tribulation. A clear deduction in the church age.
5. God's wrath was not on Israel when He judged Egypt, but they
still suffered some of the affects, neither will His wrath be on His children
during the Tribulation. All Christians can suffer the affects of God's wrath
against evil doers, even though His wrath is not on them personally.
6. It is logical for ALL Christians to get a glorified body at the same time.
7. All Christians can be a testimony in martyrdom. All Christians can be
a witness in the way they are "faithful" and in the way that they persevere to the end. God will reward them, btw. Which is the greater
good?

Read and pray about John 17:15 very carefully. Understand that its
application if it applies to Christians is a "deduction" that should apply
to all Christians, not just an "induction" like the three that were listed above.
I Thess. 5:21.

I do not believe you are here by accident. I believe God wants to open
your eyes to the TRUTH of scripture regarding the "rapture."

Ask God to "protect" you from anything that is not from Him. From
anything or any deception that isn't true. God is faithful to give his
daughters what they ask in truth and a sincere heart.

In Christ, always, your brother,
Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Amazing, but it is all right in front of you. Keep reading to I Thess 5:23.

Thank you, Michael, for your kind and thought-provoking reply.

1 Thess 5: The Day of the Lord shall come as a thief to unbelievers.
The Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins when the sun/moon darken/stars fall in seal #6 of Rev 6. The giving of white robes, clothes of immortality, is in Seal #5 just before seal #6.

How do we need to be made complete "if" we are already in glorified bodies for 7 years????

Scripture reference, please, so I know exactly what you are talking about.

Ask yourself another basic question. How is it that the dead "in Christ"
rise first, IF you have Christians dying during the tribulation???

In reference to this scripture:

1Th 4:16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


The people who die during "the tribulation" (what you mean is the reign of the beast during the judgment and wrath of God, not the Tribulation) die as martyrs and are resurrected and judged by the BRIDE. Read Rev 20. It refers to thrones set in place and those who refused the mark are resurrected and judged by the Bride.

General observation (Deduction rather than the "induction" of Pretrib)to
ask next is "Why are born-again Christians being excluded from the
Body of Christ, the bride, the church, etc?" Trying applying that concept
to Matthew 25, 22 and various places.... How is it that tribulational
believers are excluded from being part of the "bride?"

You mean, those who die during the judgment and wrath of God which includes the beasts, the trumpets, the two witnesses and the bowls...not the tribulation. A person cannot be born again during the 3 1/2 year judgment and wrath of God. It is the "dark night when no one can work". They are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb:

Rev 19:9Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."

Let's try another one, since there are so many to choose from.
Read Revelation 11:18!!
Ask yourself, how is it possible for "and Thy Wrath Came" as well
as "a time for the dead to be judged" (are they not dying during the
tribulation?)

The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are identical and happen after the reign of the beast, the bowls (1-6), the trumpets (1-6).

Rev 11:15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."


Compare that to those who were snatched up and before or as the devil is cast down:

Rev 12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
...
Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

The kingdom comes to the heavens about 3.5 years before it comes to the earth.

BEFORE the rewards of Christians and prophets to be
able to be in glorified bodies??? This doesn't make any sense.
If the dead are judged at the end of the tribulation, THEN so must
the reward of Christians be at the end of the tribulation. Use that
as a hermeneutic all through Matthew and you will see that the
text is quite clear.

No, the Bride was given her Bridal clothes in Rev 6, Seal #5. The white robes are the clothes of immortality. The great multitude is the Bride. The wedding supper is after the wedding.

The rapture takes place at the end of the tribulation as does the
rewarding of believers.

No, the rapture takes place before the devil is cast down. Those who refuse the mark are raised after.

BTW, the list goes on.... (Look at the purpose of the 7 trumpets
in the Old Testament and its relationship to gathering for war).
Look at the walls of Jericho. (That would be induction, BTW, but
not all induction leads to error it is just that induction leaves open
the possibility of error).

Look at Joel 2 and Numbers and Exodus 19:10-20. The JUBILEE/trumpet is used to gather the consecrated people to God.

Examples:

Inductions: 1. Noah being delivered from the flood so we will be
delivered from the tribulation
2. Moses led them out of Egypt so we will be led out of the Trib.
(really this is symbolic of a believer being delivered from the world)
3. John ascended to heaven in Rev. 4 (observation, he didn't come
back in Rev. 19) so we will ascend in the rapture as John ascended

Deductions: 1. All Christians are called to be faithful and preach the gospel even if it means suffering
2. All Christians are part of the Body of Christ, the One True Church
the perfect blameless Bride of Christ and no born-again believer should
be excluded (a believer is part of the church body)
3. All Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and with an outpouring
of the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is active in ALL believers lifes especially
openning the eyes of tribulational believers. (who should be a part of
the church)
4. Christians have suffered all over the world and are enduring times
of tribulation in countries where Christianity is prohibited. God does
not save Christians from tribulation. A clear deduction in the church age.
5. God's wrath was not on Israel when He judged Egypt, but they
still suffered some of the affects, neither will His wrath be on His children
during the Tribulation. All Christians can suffer the affects of God's wrath
against evil doers, even though His wrath is not on them personally.
6. It is logical for ALL Christians to get a glorified body at the same time.
7. All Christians can be a testimony in martyrdom. All Christians can be
a witness in the way they are "faithful" and in the way that they persevere to the end. God will reward them, btw. Which is the greater
good?

Read and pray about John 17:15 very carefully. Understand that its
application if it applies to Christians is a "deduction" that should apply
to all Christians, not just an "induction" like the three that were listed above.
I Thess. 5:21.

The consecrated believers (born again) are removed prior to judgment and wrath. If you aren't a born again believer when the birth happens, then undoubtedly you'll be proving your faith and belief by refusing the mark.

Rev 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

I do not believe you are here by accident. I believe God wants to open
your eyes to the TRUTH of scripture regarding the "rapture."

 

[Breckmin]

My beliefs about you personally are based on "induction" BTW, just like all the
seals and trumpets that are confusing you, so perhaps I am wrong about your
journey to convert to post trib.
Every specific you use is based on induction. You point to no general principle
which is true for all believers from which to make a valid assumption.
You are guilty of Assumption + Bible verse = Interpretation (as am I), but you
are starting without sound assumptions based on simple deduction.

It is often that we use induction to interpret scripture because we ARE dealing
with divine revelation, but the problem is is that you are missing the very basic
building blocks from which to interpret the text exegetically. Instead you are
going through the scriptures like you are at a smorgasbord, picking a verse here
and a verse there and trying to make it fit. Keep it simple and you will see that
the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet.

<<Scripture reference, please, so I know exactly what you are talking about.>>
The scripture reference I gave was the line above it 1 Thess. 5:23. For some
reason you missed the concept of being made perfect "IF" we are already in
glorified bodies at the end of the tribulation (the 2nd Coming).

When you say "a person can not be born again during the 3 1/2 year ...etc" basically
referring the the last half of the tribulation, I am AMAZED! I never believed this when
I was pretrib, so perhaps that is the difference between you and I.

I would never limit God's ability to bring about redemption and second chances, when
we are still in temporary bodies of blood,flesh and bone. Why are people being beheaded, or a number that no one could count, coming out of this time???

It makes no sense to me, and it is induction (in this case, a really bad induction)
that is making the text say something that is contrary to the loving nature of our
Heavenly Father. To allow the power of the Cross to still cut to the hearts of men
and women, and to draw those to Him and Glorify Himself through the demonstration
of such incredible grace.

It just doesn't make any sense to say no one can follow Christ after the Cross, when
they are still in the same bodies we are in now.
It actually stands in the face of logical deduction....

I'm sorry but we both agree Jesus is Returning, and we both believe in a rapture.

I believe in one rapture, I'm not sure whether or not you believe in two.
Clearly, the rapture in Matthew 24 is at the end of the tribulation...

It is not even worth the time to discuss something that will not help anyone get saved...

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

In reference to this scripture:

1Th 4:16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

This actually does not answer the question... What you are doing is skirting the question here and quoting the same verse that I quoted
and asked a question about... The verse says the dead "in Christ"
will rise first. How can those "in Christ" dying during the tribulational
period rise FIRST, if a whole bunch of "still alive" Christians are already
transformed into glorified bodies. The verse doesn't identify it as
before the seven year "wrath" period, so you can't in all honesty use
it without addressing the premise of my question. Those "in Christ"
dying after this event, means that all of the "dead in Christ" did not
rise first (all brings us right back to basic deduction).

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Either position could use this so it is superfluous to what happens (marriage supper of the Lamb by both positions) after we are caught
up in the clouds. If fact the post trib position has the marriage supper
immediately, and it doesn't take seven years. Maybe a day or two, not
important. The Day of the Lord can refer to the time period in both
positions so it is still not addressing an area of dispute. It doesn't have
to be 24 hours nor does the last hour have to be 1 hour.

The people who die during "the tribulation" (what you mean is the reign of the beast during the judgment and wrath of God, not the Tribulation) die as martyrs and are resurrected and judged by the BRIDE. Read Rev 20. It refers to thrones set in place and those who refused the mark are resurrected and judged by the Bride.

This is evasive to whether or not they are "in Christ." It is really quite
simple. You don't have to complicate with with all of the different states
of being unequally in Christ. We are ALL believers who are "in Christ."

Stick to the premise.
Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

This actually does not answer the question... What you are doing is skirting the question here and quoting the same verse that I quoted
and asked a question about... The verse says the dead "in Christ"
will rise first. How can those "in Christ" dying during the tribulational
period rise FIRST, if a whole bunch of "still alive" Christians are already
transformed into glorified bodies. The verse doesn't identify it as
before the seven year "wrath" period, so you can't in all honesty use
it without addressing the premise of my question. Those "in Christ"
dying after this event, means that all of the "dead in Christ" did not
rise first (all brings us right back to basic deduction).

Apparently your concerns about whether something is inductive/deductive reasoning are getting in the way.
The tribulation is not the judgment and wrath of God. They are two different things.
The tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall according to Jesus in Matt 24. The judgment and wrath of God (trumpets, beasts, bowls, two witnesses) are AFTER the sun/moon darken/stars fall according to Revelation.

ALL Christians have endured the tribulation as described by Christ and confirmed by the symbolic washing of robes in the blood of the Lamb in Rev 7. How long have people been able to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb? ...about 2000 years since the death of Christ. Why does it mention "washing robes"? It's a reference to Exodus 19:10-20 where God told Moses to consecrate the people and have them wash their robes for TWO days because on the morning of the THIRD day, at the sound of a JUBILEE/TRUMPET, God was going to come down and meet with the people who are led out of the camp to meet with God. That has RAPTURE written all over it.

In attempt to figure out what your question is, here is my answer:

[Where does it say that the wrath of God is seven years long? NOWHERE]

1 Thess 4:13-18 are talking about the dead in Christ up to the moment of the last Jubilee/trumpet. Jesus brings with Him the spirits of those who have fallen asleep in Him, their bodies rise (they get their body back in glorified form), we are changed and join them in the air to meet Christ.

Isa 26:19But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Did you catch that? It's a resurrection and gathering to our rooms BEFORE wrath!

Those who die for Christ during the judgment and wrath of God will be resurrected and judged by their deeds and be found worthy.

Either position could use this so it is superfluous to what happens (marriage supper of the Lamb by both positions) after we are caught
up in the clouds. If fact the post trib position has the marriage supper
immediately, and it doesn't take seven years. Maybe a day or two, not
important. The Day of the Lord can refer to the time period in both
positions so it is still not addressing an area of dispute. It doesn't have
to be 24 hours nor does the last hour have to be 1 hour.


This is evasive to whether or not they are "in Christ." It is really quite
simple. You don't have to complicate with with all of the different states
of being unequally in Christ. We are ALL believers who are "in Christ."

Stick to the premise.
Michael

It's like you don't understand what the rapture is. It's the fulfillment of the New Covenant promises to the church.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Keep it simple and you will see that
the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet.

Talk about picking and choosing.
You have assumed that the mention of the last trumpet in 1 Cor 15 is the 7th trumpet of Revelation and there's no reason for that assumption.
You have assumed that the change to glorified bodies is AFTER judgment and wrath have been poured out when scripture after scripture says it's BEFORE wrath.
You have assumed that the coming of Jesus with the angels is the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath which is incorrect.

<<Scripture reference, please, so I know exactly what you are talking about.>>
The scripture reference I gave was the line above it 1 Thess. 5:23. For some
reason you missed the concept of being made perfect "IF" we are already in
glorified bodies at the end of the tribulation (the 2nd Coming).

What you're saying makes no sense to me. The change to glorified bodies happens after the 2000 year tribulation (wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, martyrdom) and before the approximate 3 1/2+ years judgment and wrath of God(trumpets, beasts, two witnesses, bowls). The turning point between the two time periods is the sun/moon darkening/stars falling.

The change to glorified bodies is seal #5...after the tribulation (seals 1-4) and before the beginning of the Day of Wrath (seal #6), let alone the outpouring of that wrath (Seal #7).

When you say "a person can not be born again during the 3 1/2 year ...etc" basically
referring the the last half of the tribulation, I am AMAZED! I never believed this when
I was pretrib, so perhaps that is the difference between you and I.

Let me back-track. What I'm telling you is that the fulfillment of the New Covenant is before the wrath of God.

I would never limit God's ability to bring about redemption and second chances, when
we are still in temporary bodies of blood,flesh and bone. Why are people being beheaded, or a number that no one could count, coming out of this time???

You're assuming again. The great multitude are not beheaded by the beast. The great multitude is the church who was given her clothes of immortality and snatched to the throne of God before the Day of Wrath begins which includes the trumpets, the beasts, the bowls.

You'll see it if you look closely:

Rev 6:9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain (1st group of martyrs - church)because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Rev 6:10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Rev 6:11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed (2nd group of martyrs - those who refuse the mark) as they had been was completed


Two sets of martyrs. One set has been going on for 2000 years and one set will die for refusing the mark. The first set is given her Bridal clothes and is seen singing about salvation in Rev 7 as the great multitude. The 2nd set is resurrected in Rev 20. The waiting of the 1st set is the answer to the question they asked. They will have to wait a little longer before the final judgment of the earth...but that doesn't stop the giving of clothes of immortality.

It makes no sense to me, and it is induction (in this case, a really bad induction)
that is making the text say something that is contrary to the loving nature of our
Heavenly Father. To allow the power of the Cross to still cut to the hearts of men
and women, and to draw those to Him and Glorify Himself through the demonstration
of such incredible grace.

I didn't say that.

 

[Breckmin]

Apparently your concerns about whether something is inductive/deductive reasoning are getting in the way.

We see this ALL through our universities with PhD professors using
invalid assumptions based on circular reasoning and inductions (which
are open to error). We see this really clearly in the ID-creationism vs.
evolution debate where scientists start with circular reasoning in their
definition of science itself and try to explain everything by the assumption
that they started with.

What you are doing here is the exact same thing when it comes to the
2000 years. You are correct, I don't understand your position, nor do I
think I want to. If you believe anything about the year 2027 or 2070
or 2020 plus 7 years to 2027 then guess what? You are using induction.
I am not saying you DO believe you can calculate the year of the rapture,
because I do not understand this 2000 year tribulation period you are
constantly eluding to. There is no single text to make such an exegesis.
I consider exegesis to be superior to hermeneutics when it comes to
eschatology specifically. When it comes to other areas of systematic
theology, I believe logic itself is often the best hermeneutic.

We seem to be missing each other with basic communication. I have
asked a very basic question about being "in Christ" and dying after
a so called first "rapture" before an end times seven year period (whatever you wish to assign its nomenclature).

The fascinating thing is you are obsessing over English nomenclature
as though it can be "induced" into meaning quantifiable periods that
are absolute, without addressing the original language.

I find this whole discussion somewhat futile because your entire operation
is based on induction and you do not engage basic points of deduction.

"in Christ" is just one example.

May the Lord Richly Bless You and Lead You to the Truth
Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

We see this ALL through our universities with PhD professors using
invalid assumptions based on circular reasoning and inductions (which
are open to error). We see this really clearly in the ID-creationism vs.
evolution debate where scientists start with circular reasoning in their
definition of science itself and try to explain everything by the assumption
that they started with.

What you are doing here is the exact same thing when it comes to the
2000 years. You are correct, I don't understand your position, nor do I
think I want to. If you believe anything about the year 2027 or 2070
or 2020 plus 7 years to 2027 then guess what? You are using induction.
I am not saying you DO believe you can calculate the year of the rapture,
because I do not understand this 2000 year tribulation period you are
constantly eluding to. There is no single text to make such an exegesis.
I consider exegesis to be superior to hermeneutics when it comes to
eschatology specifically. When it comes to other areas of systematic
theology, I believe logic itself is often the best hermeneutic.

We seem to be missing each other with basic communication. I have
asked a very basic question about being "in Christ" and dying after
a so called first "rapture" before an end times seven year period (whatever you wish to assign its nomenclature).

The fascinating thing is you are obsessing over English nomenclature
as though it can be "induced" into meaning quantifiable periods that
are absolute, without addressing the original language.

I find this whole discussion somewhat futile because your entire operation
is based on induction and you do not engage basic points of deduction.

"in Christ" is just one example.

May the Lord Richly Bless You and Lead You to the Truth
Michael

You are so busy thinking about how to think that you aren't thinking!...except about how to think. Talk about circular reasoning! You leave no room in your thinking for understanding symbolism!

The Bible gives us several clues about the 2000 years.

Israel is abandoned for 2000 years and restored on the 3rd day (millennium). Hosea 6:2
Hsa 6:2After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.


The Good Samaritan parable:

Jesus, as the Good Samaritan, takes the half-dead man (Adam-kind), whom the Law (priests/Levites) could not save, to the inn and gives him oil and wine (Holy Spirit and blood) and leaves him with the innkeeper (the church) and gives the innkeeper two denarii (two days wages) and then says he will return. He expected to be gone for two days.

Rev 7:

Rev 7:14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes (reference to Exodus 19:10-20) and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Now, really think about that verse for a second. The white-robed Great Multitude has come out of great tribulation
1. Jesus said the tribulation precedes the sun/moon darkening in Matt 24.
2. The sun/moon darken in seal #6. (PS: The devil's 42 month reign doesn't even begin until seal #7)
3. These people got their white robes in seal #5.
4. Therefore the tribulation is seals 1-4. (Deductive reasoning)

..they have washed their robes
1. Explanation is in Exodus 19:10-20

...in the blood of the Lamb
1. the blood of Jesus.
2. People have been able to do that - believe in/put their faith in Jesus for nearly 2000 years.

Check out Exodus 19:10-20 for confirmation:

Exd 19:10And the Lord said to Moses (symbolic of Jesus), "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow (2 days = 2000 years on God's calendar). Have them wash their clothes

Exd 19:11and be ready by the third day (millennium), because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
...
Exd 19:13He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.' Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain."

Exd 19:14After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes.
Exd 19:15Then he said to the people, "Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations."
Exd 19:16On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
Exd 19:17Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.

The tribulation is about 2000 years long and is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution and martyrdom that have been going on in increasing frequency and intensity since Christ ascended and sent them on Jerusalem and the world. The judgment and wrath of God happens after the sun/moon darken and includes the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses and the bowls.

 

[Breckmin]

It's like you don't understand what the rapture is. It's the fulfillment of the New Covenant promises to the church.

It is also the gathering together for war at the seventh trumpet just
before Armageddon and fulfilling passages like Matt. 24:31, 1 Thess 3:13
(same question by the way, why does He need to establish our hearts
unblameable if we've already been in glorified bodies for seven years?)
and other verses which you can actually find for yourself if you started
with the right assumptions before you went to scripture.

1 rapture not 2. 1 Second Coming, NOT Third Coming.

Your obsession over the English words "tribulation" and "wrath of God"
will only continue to deceive you through the induction and extrapolation
you are attempting to make out of them. You are almost interpreting
backwards by your use of these English terms.

Keep it simple and read the text plainly, and the Lord will guide you to truth.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It is also the gathering together for war at the seventh trumpet just before Armageddon and fulfilling passages like Matt. 24:31, 1 Thess 3:13

What? The rapture is most certainly NOT the gathering together for war at the 7th trumpet. Where did you get that idea?

(same question by the way, why does He need to establish our hearts
unblameable if we've already been in glorified bodies for seven years?)
and other verses which you can actually find for yourself if you started
with the right assumptions before you went to scripture.

The church is not here during the judgment and wrath of God. We will be in the New Jerusalem in heaven.

1 rapture not 2. 1 Second Coming, NOT Third Coming.

The beginning of the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath is the return of Christ.
The coming of Jesus with the angels is at least 3 1/2 years later after judgment and wrath in the form of the trumpets, beasts, bowls have been poured out.

Your obsession over the English words "tribulation" and "wrath of God"
will only continue to deceive you through the induction and extrapolation
you are attempting to make out of them. You are almost interpreting
backwards by your use of these English terms.

Use scripture to define the tribulation and you will see what I see.

Matt 24. Jesus describes the tribulation and says it precedes the sun/moon darkening/stars falling.

According to Rev 6, the sun/moon darkening/stars falling is Seal #6. Therefore, using deductive reasoning, the tribulation would have to be prior to that...seals 1-4..which just so happen to be the exact things Jesus described the tribulation to be in Matt 24!

Ever notice that the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses and the bowls are not mentioned in Matt 24? It's because they FOLLOW the sun/moon darkening and are part of the wrath of God. They are in seal #7!


Mat 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[Breckmin]

The Bible gives us several clues about the 2000 years.

Israel is abandoned for 2000 years and restored on the 3rd day (millennium). Hosea 6:2
Hsa 6:2After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

Classic induction that leads to error. I couldn't have asked for a better
example. Christian universalists do the same type of thing to conclude
that everyone gets saved (everyone will confess He is Lord, connected
to confessing He is Lord now means you are saved).

Let me guess, yet another induction: "A day to the Lord is like a
thousand years...." Classic induction and road that leads to deceptions...

Question your basic assumptions before you approach the text with a
bias, and it just might lead you in the right direction.

I turned to post trib arguing two years against it.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Classic induction that leads to error. I couldn't have asked for a better
example. Christian universalists do the same type of thing to conclude
that everyone gets saved (everyone will confess He is Lord, connected
to confessing He is Lord now means you are saved).

Let me guess, yet another induction: "A day to the Lord is like a
thousand years...." Classic induction and road that leads to deceptions...

Question your basic assumptions before you approach the text with a
bias, and it just might lead you in the right direction.

I turned to post trib arguing two years against it.

In Christ,
Michael

Then you are making a grave error.

God's plan involves 7 days....1000 year days. Six days of work, followed by a day of rest. Rev 20 confirms that the Day of the Lord (the 7th day since the fall/3rd day since Christ) is a millennium.

 

[Breckmin]

What? The rapture is most certainly NOT the gathering together for war at the 7th trumpet. Where did you get that idea?

Induction that I fully admit to. But I started with deduction in other
areas. How about "all" saints for starters?

It is interesting how the pretrib position has two sets of saints. One
set during the so called "tribulational 2000 years" and the other set
during the "seven year period after the rapture" (what ever English
nomenclature you want to assign to it).

Deduction corrects induction. That is why I look for patterns of
deception when I look at belief systems.

The pre-trib rapture position is a paradigm for deception based on
inductions.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Induction that I fully admit to. But I started with deduction in other
areas. How about "all" saints for starters?

No scripture says this. No scripture says that all saints are gathered for war at Armageddon. Who does the Bible say that Christ comes with at Armageddon?

ANGELS!

Mat 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

Mar 8:38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

 

[Breckmin]

Then you are making a grave error.

God's plan involves a 7 days....1000 year days. Six days of work, followed by a day of rest. Rev 20 confirms that the Day of the Lord (the 7th day since the fall/3rd day since Christ) is a millennium.

Even if this were somehow true you could still be post trib and hold
to the (last seven year period) starting in 2020 and the Return of Christ
in 2027, and the end of the millennium in 3027.

It doesn't matter. Don't you see how foolish this really is? We don't
even have a one world government yet and the internet can be developed
much more to fulfill biblical prophecy and make born-again Christians look
really crazy and "world system" evaders (like tax evaders).

You are using the same kind of inductions which made so many Christians
believe that hitler was the anti-Christ back in the 1940's. Your belief that
the millennium is a day of rest is ALSO classic induction which fails in
comparison to the first 6000 years. There will be work in both periods so
the deduction corrects the induction.

I'm sorry, but the pre-tribbers I know would reject many of the claims
you are making because they would say "no one knows the day or the
hour."

With the confusion that will take place during the (seven year period
that some have referred to as a tribulation), the post trib position has
no problem with the above statement. Most all of the Christians will
have been killed, and the Israelites who are running for their lives
just before Armageddon are not pretrib or postrib because they didn't
believe in the first advent. (unless Messianic Jews which you can
still address the concept of knowing summer is near).

Either way, I don't see how your position accomplishes anything,
trying to predict the year of the rapture and the year of the Second
Coming. There are too many factors that stand in the face of being
able to make such a prediction.

I do not know when the Lord will return, but I would not base it on
the New Testament concept that a day to the Lord is like a thousand
years. It smells too much like induction that is open to error and
deception.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

No scripture says this. No scripture says that all saints are gathered for war at Armageddon. Who does the Bible say that Christ comes with at Armageddon?

ANGELS!

Mat 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

Mar 8:38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

Perhaps you missed where I gave 1 Thess 3:13. There are other verses
I can point to but I don't think you are seeing what is going on here in
this discussion.

All I can suggest is to pray. Pray for protection from that which is not
true. I am not saying your dates are impossible, just unlikely with the
uniformity we are progressing toward. Something catestrophic could
change in the next ten years so I am not saying your dates are impossible,


just your order of events....

In Christ,
Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Even if this were somehow true you could still be post trib and hold
to the (last seven year period) starting in 2020 and the Return of Christ
in 2027, and the end of the millennium in 3027.

There is no mention of a seven year period in Revelation. Nothing longer than 42 months/1260 days is mentioned.

It doesn't matter. Don't you see how foolish this really is? We don't
even have a one world government yet and the internet can be developed
much more to fulfill biblical prophecy and make born-again Christians look
really crazy and "world system" evaders (like tax evaders).

I don't think the Word of God is foolish at all. I think God gave us clues, little nuggets of treasure in His Word for those of us who seek Him.

You are using the same kind of inductions which made so many Christians
believe that hitler was the anti-Christ back in the 1940's. Your belief that
the millennium is a day of rest is ALSO classic induction which fails in
comparison to the first 6000 years. There will be work in both periods so
the deduction corrects the induction.

I'm amazed at your lack of understanding of God's plan and the meaning of the Day of rest.

I'm sorry, but the pre-tribbers I know would reject many of the claims
you are making because they would say "no one knows the day or the
hour."

No one knows the day or hour that the Day of the Lord will begin. It will be a surprise to the unbelievers. We do know and have been told the general timeframe.

With the confusion that will take place during the (seven year period
that some have referred to as a tribulation), the post trib position has
no problem with the above statement. Most all of the Christians will
have been killed, and the Israelites who are running for their lives
just before Armageddon are not pretrib or postrib because they didn't
believe in the first advent. (unless Messianic Jews which you can
still address the concept of knowing summer is near).

You aren't basing your beliefs on scripture because the Bible doesn't say that.

Either way, I don't see how your position accomplishes anything,
trying to predict the year of the rapture and the year of the Second
Coming. There are too many factors that stand in the face of being
able to make such a prediction.

I have not done that. I said that the tribulation is about 2000 years long and shown you the Biblical reasons why.
I have said that God's plan involves 7, 1000 year days.
The devil knows, however, when Jesus will be coming with the angels because he gathers the armies of the world to fight against Him as He is coming.