Pope, King of the world?

[MamaZ]

Oh, yeah, Jesus installed fleshly apostles too. What on earth did He do that for!!

Were they the head? We are to listen to their teaching which we have now in written for for us. Remember what Paul said?

1Co 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you.
1Co 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
1Co 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 3:4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
1Co 3:5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
1Co 3:7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

In fact, it was even acceptable to venerate religious objects by bowing towards them:

Leviticus 19:30 You shall venerate my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Psalm 138:2 I bow down toward thy holy temple...
​

It was also acceptable to make self-expression with religious objects, such as the Jordan altar (Joshua 22:9-34), or a procession:

2Samuel 6:
11 And the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months; and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household.
12 And it was told King David, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obededom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God." So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom to the city of David with rejoicing;
13 and when those who bore the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling.
14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod [religious garb].
15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn.
​

Good post.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Trento In fact, it was even acceptable to venerate religious objects by bowing towards them:

Good post.

How come?

 

[MamaZ]

Ephesians 4

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

Unless we are finished building the body Of Christ and all have attained unity of faith which has not happened we still have Apostles.

we don't build the body of Christ. Christ builds His house. If the Lord does not build the house then we labor in vain. The scriptures are the very teaching and testimony to which we are to adhere to. Not men.

 

[Uphill Battle]

How come?

 

[MamaZ]

Unless we are finished building the body Of Christ and all have attained unity of faith which has not happened we still have Apostles.

Actually no we do not have any of the Apostles left. We have sent ones to preach the Gospel but the 12 Apostles are no longer with us. But God made sure that their teaching was still with us and we find this teaching in the very pages of the written testimony of the Apostles.

 

[simonthezealot]

In fact, it was even acceptable to venerate religious objects by bowing towards them:

Leviticus 19:30 You shall venerate my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
​

Nice translation...Where'd ya get that back of a cereal box? ever read that warning in the back of Revelation?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
'You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Observe my days of worship and respect my holy tent. I am the LORD.
King James Bible
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
American King James Version
You shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
American Standard Version
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary; I am Jehovah.
Bible in Basic English
Keep my Sabbaths and have respect for my holy place: I am the Lord.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Keep ye my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary. I am the Lord.
Darby Bible Translation
my sabbaths shall ye keep, And my sanctuary shall ye reverence: I am Jehovah.
English Revised Version
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Webster's Bible Translation
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
World English Bible
"'You shall keep my Sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary; I am Yahweh. Young's Literal Translation
My sabbaths ye do keep, and My sanctuary ye do reverence; I am Jehovah.

 

[MamaZ]

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

What is clear from the context is that Jesus was talking about people making personal judgments against others.

James 4:11-12 says If you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save or to destroy. Who then are you to judge your neighbor?" (NAB).

Joh 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

No where ever in the written account of the Apostles testimony do we see men kissing the feet of an Apostle or carrying a man exhaulted above those whom He is suppose to serve.

 

[simonthezealot]

Psalm 138:2 I bow down toward thy holy temple...

Both the temple and ceremonial service at Christ's coming were abolished: so that now God will be worshipped only in spirit and truth,
John 4:23.

 

[MamaZ]

ok, that was personal.

 

[Trento]

Both the temple and ceremonial service at Christ's coming were abolished: so that now God will be worshipped only in spirit and truth,
John 4:23.

The incarnation of Jesus Christ changed that circumstance. As is written:

John 14:
7 "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?

So in the person of Jesus we have now seen God's form, which therefore removes the reason for prohibiting images of God (Deuteronomy 4:15-16). And it is written "a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness" (Hebrews 7:15). Thus now the measure of idolatry is not by externals (Luke 11:37-41), by merely having or not having images of God, but instead the measure comes from the heart (Matthew 15:10-20, 1Tim 1:5). This is the law of Christ (1st Cor 9:21, Gal 6:2), setting us free from legalism (Romans 7:6), as it is written:

Romans 13:
8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.​

Col 2:
13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (cf. Galatiosn 4:21-31)​

Indeed, with the incarnation of Jesus ushering in this new dispensation, Jesus at last revealed the Old Testament bronze serpent (Numbers 21:8-9) to have been actually an image of Himself all along, though the Old Testament people were not before permitted to know it. As it is written:

John 3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
14 And as Moses lifted up the [bronze] serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." Brent Arias​

 

[simonthezealot]

That'd be a good avatar...For the roman team!

 

[simonthezealot]

The incarnation of Jesus Christ changed that circumstance.

Which way you gonna have it trento?????
Ac 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

 

[MamaZ]

Truthfully, you should.

Well actually the Pope has nothing to do with my salvation or my growing in the Lord. So therefore I don't see the reason why I sould worry about anything He says really.. Do you?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Trento In fact, it was even acceptable to venerate religious objects by bowing towards them:

Leviticus 19:30 You shall venerate my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Nice translation...Where'd ya get that back of a cereal box? ever read that warning in the back of Revelation?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
'You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD.

Hm. That word is used mainly as "fear" it looks like..


Leviticus 19:30 Sabbaths of me ye shall observe and sanctuary of Me ye shall fear I YHWH

03372 yare' {yaw-ray'} a primitive root; TWOT - 907,908; v
AV - fear 188, afraid 78, terrible 23, terrible thing 6, dreadful 5,
reverence 3, fearful 2, terrible acts 1, misc 8; 314
1) to fear, revere, be afraid
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to fear, be afraid
1a2) to stand in awe of, be awed

 

[Trento]

Actually no we do not have any of the Apostles left. We have sent ones to preach the Gospel but the 12 Apostles are no longer with us. But God made sure that their teaching was still with us and we find this teaching in the very pages of the written testimony of the Apostles.

Right ! In the Old Testament, the name "man of God" occurs more than sixty times and consistently refers to those who receive direct revelation from God. For example:
Deuteronomy 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.

1Kings 17:24 And the woman said to Elijah, "Now I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in your mouth is truth.

2Kings 5:8 But when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, he sent to the king


Nehemiah 12:24 ...give thanks, according to the commandment of David the man of God

In the New Testament, the term "man of God" or "men of God" occurs only three times. When used in 2Peter 1:21 (KJV/NKJ), the same "private interpretation" passage discussed earlier, it refers to prophets and thus repeats the Old Testament usage. Then Paul used the name "man of God" in reference to apostle Timothy: "as for you, man of God, aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness" (1st Tim 6:11). Given this overall biblical pattern, "man of God" is an exclusive name designating those of highest authority - it does not refer to each and every believer. Therefore the third and final reference to "man of God" in the New Testament, again found in Paul's letter to apostle Timothy, is significant:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. I charge you [apostle Timothy] in the presence of God...preach the word, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching...discharge all the duties of your ministry (2nd Timothy 3:16-4:5).

We find Timothy as Bishop of Ephesus in AD 65, where he served for 15 years. In 80, Timothy tried to halt a pagan procession of idols, ceremonies, and songs. In response to his preaching of the Gospel the angry pagans beat him, dragged him through the streets, and stoned him to death.
Since the bible places apostles at the center of biblical interpretation, applies the name "man of God" in an exclusive fashion, and indeed calls apostle Timothy a "man of God" (1st Tim 6:11) - the weight of evidence indicates that "man of God" above refers to apostles. Certainly had Paul intended to reference all Christians in 2nd Timothy 3:17, then saying instead "...that the saints may be complete..." would have properly made the point by harmonizing with the sixty plus uses of the common word "saint" or "saints" in the New Testament. Yet Paul chose the rare and exclusive term. And indeed the underlined words above show the connection to the formal work of a minister. Brent Arias

​

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Nice translation...Where'd ya get that back of a cereal box? ever read that warning in the back of Revelation?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
'You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Observe my days of worship and respect my holy tent. I am the LORD.
King James Bible
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
American King James Version
You shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
American Standard Version
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary; I am Jehovah.
Bible in Basic English
Keep my Sabbaths and have respect for my holy place: I am the Lord.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Keep ye my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary. I am the Lord.
Darby Bible Translation
my sabbaths shall ye keep, And my sanctuary shall ye reverence: I am Jehovah.
English Revised Version
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Webster's Bible Translation
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
World English Bible
"'You shall keep my Sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary; I am Yahweh. Young's Literal Translation
My sabbaths ye do keep, and My sanctuary ye do reverence; I am Jehovah.

Sunday and the Tabernacle.

 

[Trento]

Hm. That word is used mainly as "fear" it looks like..


Leviticus 19:30 Sabbaths of me ye shall observe and sanctuary of Me ye shall fear I YHWH

<< Leviticus 19 >>
Douay-Rheims Bible 1 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
2 Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: Be ye holy, because I the Lord your God am holy. 3 Let every one fear his father, and his mother. Keep my sabbaths. I am the Lord your God. 4 Turn ye not to idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods. I am the Lord your God.
5 If ye offer in sacrifice a peace offering to the Lord, that he may be favourable, 6 You shall eat it on the same day it was offered, and the next day: and whatsoever shall be left until the third day, you shall burn with fire. 7 If after two days ally man eat thereof, he shall be profane and guilty of impiety: 8 And shall bear his iniquity, because he hath defiled the holy thing of the Lord, and that soul shall perish from among his people.
9 When thou reapest the corn of thy land, thou shalt not cut down all that is on the face of the earth to the very ground: nor shalt thou gather the ears that remain. 10 Neither shalt thou gather the bunches and grapes that fall down in thy vineyard, but shalt leave them to the poor and the strangers to take. I am the Lord your God.
11 You shall not steal. You shall not lie, neither shall any man deceive his neighbour. 12 Thou shalt not swear falsely by my name, nor profane the name of thy God. I am the Lord.
13 Thou shalt not calumniate thy neighbour, nor oppress him by violence. The wages of him that hath been hired by thee shall not abide with thee until the morning. 14 Thou shalt not speak evil of the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind: but thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, because I am the Lord.
15 Thou shalt not do that which is unjust, nor judge unjustly. Respect not the person of the poor, nor honour the countenance of the mighty. But judge thy neighbour according to justice. 16 Thou shalt not be a detractor nor a whisperer among the people. Thou shalt not stand against the blood of thy neighbour. I am the Lord.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart, but reprove him openly, lest thou incur sin through him. 18 Seek not revenge, nor be mindful of the injury of thy citizens. Thou shalt love thy friend as thyself. I am the Lord.
19 Keep ye my laws. Thou shalt not make thy cattle to gender with beasts of any other kind. Thou shalt not sow thy field with different seeds. Thou shalt not wear a garment that is woven of two sorts.
20 If a man carnally lie with a woman that is a bondservant and marriageable, and yet not redeemed with a price, nor made free: they both shall be scourged, and they shall not be put to death, because she was not a free woman. 21 And for his trespass he shall offer a ram to the Lord, at the door of the tabernacle of the testimony: 22 And the priest shall pray for him and for his sin before the Lord, and he shall have mercy on him, and the sin shall be forgiven.
23 When you shall be come into the land, and shall have planted in it fruit trees, you shall take away the firstfruits of them: the fruit that comes forth shall be unclean to you, neither shall you eat of them. 24 But in the fourth year, all their fruit shall be sanctified, to the praise of the Lord. 25 And in the fifth year you shall eat the fruits thereof, gathering the increase thereof. I am the Lord your God. 26 You shall not eat with blood. You shall not divine nor observe dreams. 27 Nor shall you cut your hair roundwise: nor shave your beard. 28 You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh, for the dead, neither shall you make in yourselves any figures or marks: I am the Lord. 29 Make not thy daughter a common strumpet, lest the land be defiled, and filled with wickedness. 30 Keep ye my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary. I am the Lord.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Both the temple and ceremonial service at Christ's coming were abolished: so that now God will be worshipped only in spirit and truth,
John 4:23.

So EVERY ONE after this letter disobeyed huh?

Seems kind of silly to me.

Christians have been receiving Christ in the Eucharist since day one.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The incarnation of Jesus Christ changed that circumstance. As is written:

John 14:
7 "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?

So in the person of Jesus we have now seen God's form, which therefore removes the reason for prohibiting images of God (Deuteronomy 4:15-16). And it is written "a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness" (Hebrews 7:15). Thus now the measure of idolatry is not by externals (Luke 11:37-41), by merely having or not having images of God, but instead the measure comes from the heart (Matthew 15:10-20, 1Tim 1:5). This is the law of Christ (1st Cor 9:21, Gal 6:2), setting us free from legalism (Romans 7:6), as it is written:

Romans 13:
8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
​

Col 2:
13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (cf. Galatiosn 4:21-31)
​

Indeed, with the incarnation of Jesus ushering in this new dispensation, Jesus at last revealed the Old Testament bronze serpent (Numbers 21:8-9) to have been actually an image of Himself all along, though the Old Testament people were not before permitted to know it. As it is written:

John 3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
14 And as Moses lifted up the [bronze] serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." Brent Arias
​

Nicely put.