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Pope, King of the world?

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&Abel

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In 1999, John Cornwell's Hitler's Pope criticized Pius for not doing enough, or speaking out enough, against the Holocaust. Cornwell argued that Pius's entire career as the nuncio to Germany, cardinal secretary of state, and pope was characterized by a desire to increase and centralize the power of the Papacy, and that he subordinated opposition to the Nazis to that goal. He further argues that Pius was anti-Semitic and that this stance prevented him from caring about the European Jews.[203] However, as noted below, Cornwell now states he is unable to judge the Pope's motivation.
Cornwell's work was the first to have access to testimonies from Pius's beatification process as well as to many documents from Pacelli's nunciature which had just been opened under the seventy-five year rule by the Vatican State Secretary archives.[204] Cornwell's work has received much praise and criticism. Much praise of Cornwell centered around his statement that he was a practising Catholic who had attempted to absolve Pius with his work.[205] While works such as Susan Zuccotti's Under His Very Windows: The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy (2000) and Michael Phayer's The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930–1965 (2000) are critical of both Cornwell and Pius XII, Ronald J. Rychlak 's Hitler, the War and the Pope is critical as well but defends Pius XII in light of his access to most recent documents. [206] Cornwell's scholarship has been criticized. For example, Kenneth L. Woodward stated in his review in Newsweek that "errors of fact and ignorance of context appear on almost every page."[207] Most recently, Rabbi David Dalin's The Myth of Hitler's Pope argues that critics of Pius are liberal Catholics and ex-Catholics who "exploit the tragedy of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to foster their own political agenda of forcing changes on the Catholic Church today" and that Pius XII was actually responsible for saving the lives of many thousands of Jews.[208]. Five years after the publication of Hitler's Pope, Cornwell stated: "I would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following Hitler's Pope, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by Germany".[209][210][211]


you might be right about pacelli


I'm gonna keep digging(obviously I'm just scratching the surface of this)
 
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sunlover1

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To Catholicism of course.



Actually, I do accept you as Christians. So don't put words in my mouth. Just because I want you to convert to Catholicism doesn't mean I don't accept you as Christians. :doh:
So just out of curiosity, why would you want us to convert to
Catholicism? (Glad you accept us btw)

And,, is that what you feel would be more pleasing to God.
(or do you think I'm pleasing to Him just as I am?)

Thank you,
sunlover
 
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&Abel

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I definitely found a lot of evidence in early letters to the church constantly reminding the churches to be subject to their bishops as if they are speaking for god

and yet the spirit is so present in protestant churches I have attended...but then again I felt the spirit at a local catholic church as well

probably just further evidence that we need to stop bickering over this stuff(and I'm just as guilty as anyone else)
 
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Zoness

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JacktheCatholic

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WA Wrote:

[/color]

Here's a word from the other side to the conflict,

<B>Polycrates (c. AD 190) emphatically notes that he was following the tradition passed down to him:
As for us, then, we scrupulously observe the exact day, neither adding nor taking away. For in Asia great luminaries have gone to their rest who will rise again on the day of the coming of the Lord.... These all kept the 14th day of the month as the beginning of the Paschal feast, in accordance with the Gospel.... Seven of my relatives were bishops, and I am the eighth, and my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven[10]
</B>
From what I've researched, the quartodeciman conflict is the earliest example of the "assertion of supremacy by the Roman See" over the others. It is interesting to note that the Jerusalem council was over "what's required to be saved", and this next controversy is over "how was it accomplished".

The conflict surfaces as early as 120 CE and then again between Polycarp (Smyrna) and Bishop of Rome Anicetus around 155 CE. It leads to bishop Victor and Polycrates as noted above. By the ending of the first council of Nicea, the truth is essentially lost to history.

Please note the two lines of authority.

Irenaeus, who followed the Sunday custom, also stated, however, that bishop Polycarp of Smyrna in Asia Minor, a disciple of John the Evangelist, observed Easter on Nisan 14. Shortly after Anicetus became bishop of Rome in about AD 155, Polycarp had visited Rome and among the topics discussed was this divergence of custom. But, Irenaeus noted,
Anicetus could not persuade Polycarp to forgo the observance [of his Nisan 14 practice] inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of the Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor did Polycarp persuade Anicetus to keep it: Anicetus said that he must hold to the way of the elders before him.
Neither Polycarp nor Anicetus was able to persuade the other to his position, but neither did they consider the matter of sufficient importance to justify a schism. Indeed, Irenaeus also noted that "Anicetus conceded to Polycarp in the Church the celebration of the Eucharist, by way of showing him respect". (Eusebius H.E. 5.24.17).[7] Anicetus and Polycarp parted in peace leaving the question unsettled.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodecimanism)

And the rest is history.

Incidentally, LLOJ, you may be interested to know that all seven letters of Revelation were written to quartodeciman churches in Asia Minor.



Good post. This Easter decision to be celebrated on Sunday always is a good example as to how Rome held a Primacy. :thumbsup:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Incidentally, LLOJ, you may be interested to know that all seven letters of Revelation were written to quartodeciman churches in Asia Minor.
What the heck is a "quartodeciman" :confused: I view them mainly as "symbolic" myself...
 
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JacktheCatholic

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So... has anyone provided a document where a Pope claimed to be King of Earth and Heaven and Hell or a document where the Pope claimed to be God?

I think ti very important for some one to provide this if we are gonna continue as though a Pope claimed this at some time.
 
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Caedmon

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The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, not God Incarnate, nor the King of the World. Jesus is God and King of Kings, and noone else. Of all the priests and Bishops I've had contact with, none of them have believed or preached that the Pope was God or King of the World.
 
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Caedmon

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If you do not know what is being said, true or false, then how can you judge?
:doh:
I've read all the arguments before, and they're cultivated lies. It'd be a waste of time and energy to rehash them. There are so many more worthwhile texts I'd rather spend the few remaining moments of my life reading. I've moved past the debate stage and settled into the Church I'll be in for the rest of my life. Have fun kids. Don't track mud on the floor. Wash behind your ears. I'm out. :wave:
 
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GuardianShua

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I've read all the arguments before, and they're cultivated lies. It'd be a waste of time and energy to rehash them. There are so many more worthwhile texts I'd rather spend the few remaining moments of my life reading. I've moved past the debate stage and settled into the Church I'll be in for the rest of my life. Have fun kids. Don't track mud on the floor. Wash behind your ears. I'm out. :wave:
So then, you are saying that all of those Catholic documents are false? If that is true, then you would have a strong case against the Christians.
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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So then, you are saying that all of those Catholic documents are false? If that is true, then you would have a strong case against the Christians.
Ehehe...
So, in your mind, there's Catholics, and then there's "the Christians."

Yet if someone referred to you as an apostate or heretic, you'd raise the roof, I'd assume.

You know, as an aside, I've at various times adopted the same judgemental, self-righteous position. Looking at it here, I repent.
Thanks for providing an example so I can see how it looks on paper.

Yes, the documents and comments circulated by the anti-Catholic groups invariably are from obscure journal, out of print, dated 1876 or so. That in itself should make a person suspect.
 
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WarriorAngel

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concerning Pope Pius XII: seems as though this pope was a protester and reformer...he made a lot of changes so lets assume for a second that his ties with Hitler are accurate(and going by the descriptions of his character I can totally see him feeling the way he did about the jews after seeing the corruption within their society first hand)

so if his intentions were at least somewhat evil...those changes he made came from evil intentions and became apart of the church(a part of the evolution process)

ever seen the movie "Se7en"?

The call to constant interior reform and Christian heroism is a central part of the message of Pius XII to all Religious. This means to be above average, to be a living example of Christian virtue. As the secular world has fallen back into Hedonism, the Catholic alternative is the sanctification especially of Priests and Religious. The strict norms governing their lives are meant to make them models of Christian perfection for lay people, he writes in Menti Nostrae.[92] Bishops are encouraged to look at model saints like Boniface, and Pope Pius X.[93] Priests were encouraged to be living examples of the love of Christ and his sacrifice.[94]

so then why would you pray for my conversion?
I am going to deal patiently with this misinformation....:crossrc:Lord willing.

You should read the real history and perhaps the letter from a Rabbi of the Judiac faith thanking the Pope for his help.

He saved [i forget the total number] of children and others who he had rescued and brought to Rome.

The Pope lost 3 million Polish Catholics who he requested to help save any Jew they could.

Hitler closed the Catholic schools and Churches.

So for the sake of my BP - don't report misguided fallacies and then turn around and call a man [ok not sure if he has been canonized yet] but he has been proclaimed towards Sainthood in the Church - evil.
 
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WarriorAngel

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So explain to me what vicar of Christ means.


Jesus handed Peter the keys to continue His ministry saving His ppl with the sacraments He set up and ordained for our sakes to be outward signs of receiving grace.

Since Jesus choose Peter to be bearer of the keys of His Kingdom - it is logically to accept that as holder of the keys - he is able to open and shut and shut and open what the Lord has deemed necessary for our salvation.

IE - since the Lord wouldnt be present - He sent His man - and men to continue onwards the same ministry.

So Peter is His stand in [steward]
 
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