Pope, King of the world?

[Ave Maria]

Where do you people come up with this stuff? I mean seriously! Yeah, the pope is God to us Catholics! Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Somehow I don't think that many of you do. Sometimes I honestly think that you people get this stuff from some conspiracy site or something. I mean, I mean no offense by this but please use some common sense when posting stuff about the Catholic Church. Catholics are Christians too and by posting stuff like this, you are implying that Catholics are not Christians and that is against the rules of Christian Forums. All of you anti-Catholics are in my prayers. I pray for your conversion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Where do you people come up with this stuff? I mean seriously! Yeah, the pope is God to us Catholics! Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Somehow I don't think that many of you do. Sometimes I honestly think that you people get this stuff from some conspiracy site or something. I mean, I mean no offense by this but please use some common sense when posting stuff about the Catholic Church. Catholics are Christians too and by posting stuff like this, you are implying that Catholics are not Christians and that is against the rules of Christian Forums. All of you anti-Catholics are in my prayers. I pray for your conversion.

Conversion to what?

 

[&Abel]

lol you obviously don't accept US as christians since you believe we must be converted

 

[WarriorAngel]

No He isn't God. He is His steward or His vicar.

 

[Trento]

and where does this opinion come from? can you show me something written by the church fathers that claims that all teaching will retain truth?

Not the Church Fathers but Jesus Himself.

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt. 28:18-20.

The Holy Spirit must have been guiding this tradition, at least in part, otherwise there is no reason why we should trust the early Church, and we can simply add or subtract from what is currently included in the Bible, based upon the most modern scholarship

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

lol you obviously don't accept US as christians since you believe we must be converted

I remember awhile back there was a thread on the OBOB board entitiled "Are Protestants Christians". I wish I could find it

What the heck!!! I just saw this thread LOL

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7321542&page=16
Can Protestants be saved?

 

[&Abel]

concerning Pope Pius XII: seems as though this pope was a protester and reformer...he made a lot of changes so lets assume for a second that his ties with Hitler are accurate(and going by the descriptions of his character I can totally see him feeling the way he did about the jews after seeing the corruption within their society first hand)

so if his intentions were at least somewhat evil...those changes he made came from evil intentions and became apart of the church(a part of the evolution process)

ever seen the movie "Se7en"?

The call to constant interior reform and Christian heroism is a central part of the message of Pius XII to all Religious. This means to be above average, to be a living example of Christian virtue. As the secular world has fallen back into Hedonism, the Catholic alternative is the sanctification especially of Priests and Religious. The strict norms governing their lives are meant to make them models of Christian perfection for lay people, he writes in Menti Nostrae.[92] Bishops are encouraged to look at model saints like Boniface, and Pope Pius X.[93] Priests were encouraged to be living examples of the love of Christ and his sacrifice.[94]

 

[Ave Maria]

Conversion to what?

To Catholicism of course.

lol you obviously don't accept US as christians since you believe we must be converted

Actually, I do accept you as Christians. So don't put words in my mouth. Just because I want you to convert to Catholicism doesn't mean I don't accept you as Christians.

 

[&Abel]

On the night of Adolf Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch, Franz Matt, the only member of the Bavarian cabinet not present at the Bürgerbräu Keller, was having dinner with Pacelli and Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber.[21] The American diplomat Robert Murphy, then in Munich, writes that "all the foreign representatives at Munich, including Nuncio Pacelli, were convinced that Hitler's political career had ended ignominiously in 1924. When I ventured to remind His Holiness of this bit of history (in 1945), he laughed and said: 'I know what you mean - papal infallibility, Don't forget, I was only a monsignor then'."[22]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Conversion to what?

To Catholicism of course.

Oh.....

 

[&Abel]

To Catholicism of course.



Actually, I do accept you as Christians. So don't put words in my mouth. Just because I want you to convert to Catholicism doesn't mean I don't accept you as Christians.

so then why would you pray for my conversion?

 

[&Abel]

repeat in case it got missed:

On the night of Adolf Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch, Franz Matt, the only member of the Bavarian cabinet not present at the Bürgerbräu Keller, was having dinner with Pacelli and Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber.[21] The American diplomat Robert Murphy, then in Munich, writes that "all the foreign representatives at Munich, including Nuncio Pacelli, were convinced that Hitler's political career had ended ignominiously in 1924. When I ventured to remind His Holiness of this bit of history (in 1945), he laughed and said: 'I know what you mean - papal infallibility, Don't forget, I was only a monsignor then'."[22]

 

[Trento]

Let's get started.

Infallibility... out the window.

He was one of the French Popes who ruled the Church from France during the Avignon exile (1309-1377). The second to reign from the River Seine, instead of on the Tiber, John XXII promoted an error concerning the state of consciousness of the departed souls. Once, on All Saints Day, he preached a sermon from the Avignon cathedral, in which he stated that the blessed departed would not enjoy the full sight of God until after the General Judgment and the Resurrection of their bodies. Although several of the Church Fathers had flirted with this theory, the vast testimony of the Church’s tradition was against it. It took some time before this Pope decided to change his opinion.In his recantation John XXII affirmed that, in promoting this error, he was speaking only as a private theologian, in an area which he wrongly had considered open to opinion.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Catholic doctrine does not hold any weight with Christians. If you are to make a point, then try scripture or non Catholic history.

DO you have anything to substantiate claims?

I think he may be talking about the fish hat the Pope wares. It has it's origins in Paganism.

The fish was a Christian symbol.
CHRISTIAN SYMBOLS: THE FISH (ICHTHUS, ICTUS), CROSS AND CRUCIFIX

for the record after reading many Epistles earlier today I do believe for the most part we are to be subject and respectful and one minded with those who Shepherd the flock

but what do you do when legitimate corruption and dictatorship take hold of the highest office of the church?

I don't have the answer to that

Usually the bad Popes didn't even care to address teachings or doctrines.
Most who were bad apples didn't speak in excathedra.

As for whom Trento mentioned..I am going to only post this quote

His vast correspondence shows that John XXII followed closely the political and religious movements in all countries, and sought on every possible occasion the advancement of ecclesiastical interests. Nor was he less insistent than his predecessors on the supreme influence of the papacy in political matters. For this reason he found himself involved in grievous disputes which lasted throughout the greater portion of his pontificate. Great difficulties were also raised for the pope by the controversies among the Franciscans, which Clement V had tried in vain to settle. A number of Franciscans, the so-called "Spirituals," or "Fraticelli," adherents of the most rigorous views, refused to submit to that pope's decision, and after the deaths of Clement V and Gonzalvez, General of the Minorites, they rebelled, especially in the South of France and in Italy, declaring that the pope had no power to dispense them from their rule, since this was nothing other than the Gospel. They then proceeded to drive the Conventuals from their houses, and take possession of the same, thereby causing scandal and much disorder. The new general, Michael of Cesena, appealed to John, who in 1317 ordered the refractory friars to submit to their superiors, and caused the doctrines and opinions of the Spirituals to be investigated. On 23 January, 1318, many of their doctrines were declared erroneous. Those who refused to yield were treated as heretics: many were burned at the stake, and some escaped to Sicily.

That aside only one Pope was questioned - and it had more to do with him NOT using the Chair of Peter than actually using it.
For instead of clarifying a position asked of him, he used generalizations and said to use caution.
But having died before being able to respond to a letter sent asking for clarification - the matter was left to the next Pope [Leo i think] who denounced the fact the previous Pope for not Teaching as he should.
And not using the position to do so.

But otherwise besides him and the Pope Trento mentioned who actually wasn't teaching anything in error, the Pope for the most part is indeed led by the Spirit.
And those bought their way in - didnt do much anything in regards for teaching.

I forget who they were - but there were some in the Middle Ages [Dark Ages] I believe.

You should try it! I did and I couldn't be better

As always - things remain to be seen.
I cannot say for fact i am better than i was before, but i was given Grace and so i must use it to the best of the ability God gave me.

in todays confusing world I know myself, I'm going to think for myself and trust gods words and spirit and nothing else

That's why the Catholics believe the Church will not fall into error.
Because Christ said it wouldn't and because the Holy Spirit leads the Church always.

Jesus sent Him to keep them [remind them] and so forth.
He hasn't left

 

[WarriorAngel]

FWIW - I think it was also during that time France was unsettled and was soon in the 100 year war with England...

 

[Hentenza]

He was one of the French Popes who ruled the Church from France during the Avignon exile (1309-1377). The second to reign from the River Seine, instead of on the Tiber, John XXII promoted an error concerning the state of consciousness of the departed souls. Once, on All Saints Day, he preached a sermon from the Avignon cathedral, in which he stated that the blessed departed would not enjoy the full sight of God until after the General Judgment and the Resurrection of their bodies. Although several of the Church Fathers had flirted with this theory, the vast testimony of the Church’s tradition was against it. It took some time before this Pope decided to change his opinion.In his recantation John XXII affirmed that, in promoting this error, he was speaking only as a private theologian, in an area which he wrongly had considered open to opinion.

Whew!!!! Glad he wasn't talking ex cathedra.

 

[&Abel]

what about the massive overhaul Pacelli attempted?

 

[Trento]

repeat in case it got missed:

On the night of Adolf Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch, Franz Matt, the only member of the Bavarian cabinet not present at the Bürgerbräu Keller, was having dinner with Pacelli and Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber.[21] The American diplomat Robert Murphy, then in Munich, writes that "all the foreign representatives at Munich, including Nuncio Pacelli, were convinced that Hitler's political career had ended ignominiously in 1924. When I ventured to remind His Holiness of this bit of history (in 1945), he laughed and said: 'I know what you mean - papal infallibility, Don't forget, I was only a monsignor then'."[22]

Contrary to the fabrications of Contra-Catholic Revisionist History, there are
the following testimonies emphasizing the truth of what really happened
in that period when Pope Pius XII was confronting the Holocaust.
******
"No Christmas sermon reaches a larger congregation than the message Pope Pius XII addresses to a war-torn world at this season. This Christmas more than ever
he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent."
The New York Times, December 25, 1942
******
"I should like you to take this occasion to express to His Holiness my deeply-felt appreciation of the frequent action which the Holy See has taken on its own
initiative in its generous and merciful efforts to render assistance
to the victims of racial and religious persecutions."
Franklin D. Roosevelt to Myron C. Taylor, August 3, 1944
******
". . . I told him [the Pope] that my first duty was to thank him , and through him, the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public, for all they had done in the
various countries to rescue Jews, to save children, and Jews in general."
Moshe Sharett, Later First Israeli Foreign Minister (April 1945)
******
"In all these painful matters, I referred to the Holy See and afterwards I simply
carried out the Pope's orders: first and foremost to save human lives."
Angelo Cardinal Roncalli, Patriarch of Venice, Later Pope John XXIII (1957)
******
"When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the
pope was raised for its victims."
Golda Meir, Israeli Foreign (October 1958)
*******
"He was a great and good man, and I loved him."
Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery,London Sunday Times (October 12, 1958)
******
"It seems evident to me that the principles, reaffirmed by Pope Pacelli in his first encyclical [Summi Pontificatus], and repeated forcefully at every circumstance, above all in the Christmas messages of the war years,
constitute the most concrete condemnation of the Hitlerian type of absolutism."
Eugene Cardinal Tisserant, New York Times (February 26, 1964)
******
"Pope Pius XII did not remain silent."
Jeno Levai (1966)
******
". . . the Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was instrumental
in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000,
Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (1967)
******
"Pope Pius XII, the one pontiff with whom I was acquainted, was an interesting man who, after 1945, came in for what almost surely is an unfair amount of criticism
because he didn't stop the conflict Hitler started and because he didn't
do more to save Europe's Jews from Nazi extermination."
C. L. Sulzberger, Go Gentle Into the Night (1976)
******
"What we can say already, in light of what we have learned, is that
the Nazis considered Pius XII and his collaborators as their greatest enemies,
and that, reciprocally, the Pope and his entourage saw the Nazis as criminals
working for the destruction of the Church and civilization."
Jean Chelini, Le Figaro (October 8, 1983)
******
"The gratitude [to Pope Pius XII] of the world Jewish leaders, for deeds to which their own archives are witness, was transformed after 1963 into totally negative commentary. The well-intentioned, informed world Jewish community was downgraded to 'disgraceful testimonials of a few Jews' (New York Times, September 27, 1989), Letters)."
Rev. Robert A. Graham, S. J. (October 1989)
******
". . . that there was no direction given by the Pope in helping the Jews recalls the argument of David Irving, the English author, who in 1977 tried to absolve Adolf Hitler of any responsibility for the Final Solution simply because historians could not find a document proving his responsibility for persecuting the Jews. The failure of historians to find any explicit instructions does not necessarily consititute proof that Hitler was not behind the persecution of the Jews or that Pius XII did not encourage the help given by the Catholic clergy and laity to the Jews, since, as any historian knows, directives can be given orally as well as in writing [actually, as early as 23 December 1940, Pius did send a secret instruction, Opere et caritate, to his bishops to help victims like the Jews]."
Rev. Vincent A. Lapomarda, S. J. (July 31, 1992)
******
"Anyone who does not limit himself to cheap polemics knows very well what
Pius XII thought of the Nazi regime and how much he did to help countless people
persecuted by the regime."
Pope John Paul II (1995)
******
"He was a great pope."
Pope John Paul II (March 21, 1998)
******
"In his 1942 Christmas message, which The New York Times among others
extolled, the pope became the first figure of international stature
to condemn what was turning into the Holocaust."
Kenneth Woodward, Newsweek (March 30, 1998)
******
"Before any more fingers are pointed at Pius XII --- who did more to save the Jews than anyone else --- let him first take a hard historical look at what his ideological kinfolk did at the time of the Holocaust. The New Republic, like The New York Timesand The Washington Post, are the ones who need to apologize for their shameful silence in the face of genocide and stop with the scapegoating of Pius XII."
William A. Donohue, President, Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
Catalyst, 27, No. 4 (May 2000), 10
******
". . . Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile."
Rabbi David G. Dalin, The Weekly Standard, February 26, 2001

(also see his "History as Bigotry," in the February 10, 2003 issue).

Pius XII? "This is the only human being who has always contradicted me "
and who has never obeyed me."
Adolf Hitler --- from Hans Jansen's The Silent Pope? (2000)


One of the things that that irks me the most is Revisionist History.

Israel Zoller (Zolli), Rome's Chief Rabbi during World War II, not only converted to
Roman Catholicism he took the same baptismal name, Eugenio, as Pius XII
in appreciation of what the Pope had done for the Jews.

In the seven plots to overthrow Adolf Hitler, Pius XII was involved
in at least two of them.

More than 4,000 priests were killed by the Nazis, incuding 868 Poles at Dachau,
780 from various nations at Mauthausen, and 123 shot in France (one estimate holds
that at least 4,000 were killed at Buchenwald alone

 

[&Abel]

I the article I posted addresses the deception construed to the public

pacelli was a very cunning man

I will attempt to dig up more on it

 

[Standing Up]

WA Wrote:

St. Victor

During the pontificate of St. Victor (189-98) we have the most explicit assertion of the supremacy of the Roman See in regard to other Churches. A difference of practice between the Churches of Asia Minor and the rest of the Christian world in regard to the day of the Paschal festival led the pope to take action. There is some ground for supposing that the Montanistheretics maintained the Asiatic (or Quartodeciman) practice to be the true one: in this case it would be undesirable that any body of CatholicChristians should appear to support them. But, under any circumstances, such a diversity in the ecclesiastical life of different countries may well have constituted a regrettable feature in the Church, whose very purpose it was to bear witness by her unity to the oneness of God (John 17:21). Victor bade the AsiaticChurches conform to the custom of the remainder of the Church, but was met with determined resistance by Polycrates of Ephesus, who claimed that their custom derived from St. John himself. Victor replied by an excommunication.

Here's a word from the other side to the conflict,

Polycrates (c. AD 190) emphatically notes that he was following the tradition passed down to him:

As for us, then, we scrupulously observe the exact day, neither adding nor taking away. For in Asia great luminaries have gone to their rest who will rise again on the day of the coming of the Lord.... These all kept the 14th day of the month as the beginning of the Paschal feast, in accordance with the Gospel.... Seven of my relatives were bishops, and I am the eighth, and my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven[10]
​

From what I've researched, the quartodeciman conflict is the earliest example of the "assertion of supremacy by the Roman See" over the others. It is interesting to note that the Jerusalem council was over "what's required to be saved", and this next controversy is over "how was it accomplished".

The conflict surfaces as early as 120 CE and then again between Polycarp (Smyrna) and Bishop of Rome Anicetus around 155 CE. It leads to bishop Victor and Polycrates as noted above. By the ending of the first council of Nicea, the truth is essentially lost to history.

Please note the two lines of authority.

Irenaeus, who followed the Sunday custom, also stated, however, that bishop Polycarp of Smyrna in Asia Minor, a disciple of John the Evangelist, observed Easter on Nisan 14. Shortly after Anicetus became bishop of Rome in about AD 155, Polycarp had visited Rome and among the topics discussed was this divergence of custom. But, Irenaeus noted,

Anicetus could not persuade Polycarp to forgo the observance [of his Nisan 14 practice] inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of the Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor did Polycarp persuade Anicetus to keep it: Anicetus said that he must hold to the way of the elders before him.
​

Neither Polycarp nor Anicetus was able to persuade the other to his position, but neither did they consider the matter of sufficient importance to justify a schism. Indeed, Irenaeus also noted that "Anicetus conceded to Polycarp in the Church the celebration of the Eucharist, by way of showing him respect". (Eusebius H.E. 5.24.17).[7] Anicetus and Polycarp parted in peace leaving the question unsettled.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodecimanism)

And the rest is history.

Incidentally, LLOJ, you may be interested to know that all seven letters of Revelation were written to quartodeciman churches in Asia Minor.