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Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?
- Thread starter Big Mouth Nana
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HisdaughterJen
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2Th 2:4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
He exalts himself over everything called God or worshipped and proclaims himself to be God. He's not claiming to be Jesus or YHWH or Allah or Buddah or anything else...he's proclaiming HIMSELF to be God.
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or maybe you don't want to believe it
ask yourself whether pride is getting in the way of seeing things clearly
ask yourself whether pride is getting in the way of seeing things clearly
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HisdaughterJen
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Hold on there....I understand what you are saying...
You are saying that because it says, "he sets himself up in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God" then this means that he's claiming to be Jesus or YHWH. Taken alone, I can see why a person would come to that conclusion.
But add the preceding sentence..."He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped,"
Now, "everything that is called God or is worshiped" includes Jesus and YHWH, doesn't it?
Other scripture says that he says slanderous things against the One True God and those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
This evil guy is not going to claim to be Jesus while slandering the name of Jesus...right?
He's such a proud person like the devil, that he declares that he is God above every god...just like the devil who dared to imagine enthroning himself above the God of Heaven.
Dan 11:36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Isa 14:13You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
This is what the tower of Babel was about as well. They were building a tower to heaven in order to unseat God.
I cannot find a scripture that says that the anti-christ will claim to be YHWH or Jesus himself.
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ya I understand what hes saying as well but I also see that hes mistaken
maybe I should have tried to explain it a little clearer I don't know...I thought daniel spelled things out pretty clearly without me needing to say anything
maybe I should have tried to explain it a little clearer I don't know...I thought daniel spelled things out pretty clearly without me needing to say anything
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HisdaughterJen
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Well, I'm wondering if this is an erroneous church teaching. I mean, people believe what they are taught in church (or on a tv program or book) as the truth instead of letting the Lord lead and guide.
If they trust their church and the pastor repeatedly says that the anti-christ will pretend to be Christ, then it's probable that the people who follow the pastor take his word for it instead of really looking at it for themselves.
I used to be guilty of the same thing. I was raised in a religion where you were expected to believe everything they said as the truth regardless of what the Bible actually said on the matter. It's dangerous.
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- Sep 9, 2003
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If you read the verses regarding the beast in the bible, it does not say that he is referred to as Jesus or the Messiah. This I agree on. I also noticed in 2 Thess 2:4 this morning that it says this..v. 4 ~ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped. That is saying that he does elevate himself even above God, but it does say also, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
That would go along with Daniel 11:36 that does state that he exalts himself and magnifies himself above every god. Satan is full of pride and power hungry. This is evidenced from the prophecy in Isaiah that states this.. Isaiah 14:13-14 ~ For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The false prophet is the one who points the way to the Antichrist as God. The AC proclaims in the temple that he is as God and is God. The false prophet is the ONLYone making people believe that the AC is God by the miracles that the false prophet does...not the Antichrist...Rev 13:12-14 ~ And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed (Antichrist).
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do (false prophet) in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Not the AC, but the false prophet does this.
The AC doesn't do any miracles while he is here. It is all the false prophet pointing the way to the AC to make people believe that he is God. The false prophet could very well be believed as Jesus returned because of the miracles, and the AC as his father God since it states that he sits in the temple as God and is God in 2nd Thess 2:4.
True Jewish believers believe in God very strongly, and they are waiting for their Messiah to come. I can see them very easily accepting the AC as God, and believing that the false prophet is Jesus by the miracles.
Rev 19:20 ~ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
It is going to be very interesting to see who the false prophet ends up being...and NO, I don't think it is the Pope lol.
That would go along with Daniel 11:36 that does state that he exalts himself and magnifies himself above every god. Satan is full of pride and power hungry. This is evidenced from the prophecy in Isaiah that states this.. Isaiah 14:13-14 ~ For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The false prophet is the one who points the way to the Antichrist as God. The AC proclaims in the temple that he is as God and is God. The false prophet is the ONLYone making people believe that the AC is God by the miracles that the false prophet does...not the Antichrist...Rev 13:12-14 ~ And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed (Antichrist).
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do (false prophet) in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Not the AC, but the false prophet does this.
The AC doesn't do any miracles while he is here. It is all the false prophet pointing the way to the AC to make people believe that he is God. The false prophet could very well be believed as Jesus returned because of the miracles, and the AC as his father God since it states that he sits in the temple as God and is God in 2nd Thess 2:4.
True Jewish believers believe in God very strongly, and they are waiting for their Messiah to come. I can see them very easily accepting the AC as God, and believing that the false prophet is Jesus by the miracles.
Rev 19:20 ~ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
It is going to be very interesting to see who the false prophet ends up being...and NO, I don't think it is the Pope lol.
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some jews may think that but it will be completely insane given that the AC is going to say monstrous things about the god of gods
basically hes going to state that theres never been a god before and he is the TRUE god
it'll probably have something to do with evolutionary theory worked into it(he'll probably claim to be the pinnacle of life thus far)
basically hes going to state that theres never been a god before and he is the TRUE god
it'll probably have something to do with evolutionary theory worked into it(he'll probably claim to be the pinnacle of life thus far)
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No one has seen God at any time, except Abraham who saw his back, but Jesus taught on the earth. No one has a clue what God looks like, so they will very easily accept this man. Most of those who were never saved, or thought that they were saved... the "apostate" crowd, see some guy doing miracles, that should do it!! They will think that he is Jesus. I bet he wears a long white flowing robe, has a beard and long hair also. Has to play the part like in the pictures of Christ that most have seen, and Satan won't miss a trick!! I doubt if most God believing Jews are into evolution. They just didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God when He was here before. He evidently wasn't "Kingly" looking enough since they said that they knew him as the Carpenters son and that He taught in the temple.
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HisdaughterJen
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In a conversation with a Jewish guy, they said that they believe the Messiah will be an annointed man, like Moses and not the Son of God and certainly not God.
Based on this, I imagine that Jews will know that something is up when a guy stands in their temple and proclaims himself to be God...above ALL gods.
I have always thought that the anti-christ goes after Christians AND Jews based on these passages:
Rev 12:17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring-those who obey God's commandments (Jews) and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Christians)
Rev 14:12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments (Jews) and remain faithful to Jesus.(Christians)
Obviously, I could be wrong but I always thought that this is an unusual way to put it.
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your not getting it
hes going to claim HE is god
hes going to speak horrible things about the god of the bible and probably claim he is a myth!!!!
hes going to claim to be the only one and true god
the jews are waiting for a man from the god of the bible...they aren't going to assume some guy whos claiming he is false(or at the very least speaking very ill of him) is their messiah
its completely illogical
hes also not going claim to be the son of god(jesus) hes going to claim HE and only HE is the true god
why is this concept so hard to grasp?
Daniel 11 leads us to believe he will enter Israel by force...hes not going to be accepted by the jews but by those who forsake the holy covenant(and he will in turn show favor towards them)
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- Sep 9, 2003
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I understood everything that you have said. According to the bible he comes in peacably, not forcefully..Dan 11:21 ~ And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
It also says this..Dan 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. These are those who go against the covenant in Israel that he deceives thinking that he is God.
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29"At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before.
30"For ships of (AH)Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.
31"Forces from him will arise, (AI)desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice And they will set up the (AJ)abomination of desolation.
30"For ships of (AH)Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.
31"Forces from him will arise, (AI)desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice And they will set up the (AJ)abomination of desolation.
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B
Bible2
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The rapture won't be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).
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Matthew 24 is referring to the reign of the Antichrist, because Matthew
24:15 is referring to the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel
the prophet (Daniel 11:31,36), which will be fulfilled by the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:4).
While the words "abomination of desolation" aren't found in Revelation,
the reign of the Antichrist is (Revelation 13:4-18). The church will go
through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).
When Jesus comes to gather together and marry the church he'll destroy
the Anticrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7,20). That's why Jesus
can't come to gather together the church until sometime after the Antichrist
is revealed at the abomination of desolation (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).
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The blessed hope is eternal life (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7). The post-trib rapture
in no way removes the hope of eternal life.
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The second coming/rapture (1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2)
will come unexpectedly only to those who aren't watching (staying awake,
spiritually) for it (1 Thessalonians 5:2-6, Matthew 24:43, cf. Revelation 3:3).
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While the Antichrist and all the armies of the world will gather together to
wage war against Jesus and his army at Jesus' second coming (Revelation
19:19), when the battle actually begins, it will be Jesus alone who will do
the fighting on the side of good (Isaiah 63:3, cf. Revelation 19:15,13,21).
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The evil that pre-trib theology can do in the hearts of some believers is get
them thinking that God himself has promised them a pre-trib rapture, so that
when it doesn't happen they could become "offended" and lose their faith
(Matthew 13:21, 24:9-10, Luke 8:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Isaiah 8:21-22,
1 Peter 4:12-13).
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That part of the church which will still be alive on the earth during the
tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4) won't
be appointed to God's wrath during the tribulation, for no one who has
obtained salvation can be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
But some in the church will be appointed to Satan's wrath during the
tribulation (Revelation 12:17), just as some in the church in the first century
had to suffer and die at the hands of Satan (Revelation 2:10).
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Believers will be judged by their own works (2 Corinthians 5:10-11,
Luke 12:45-48, 1 Peter 1:17).
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Jesus comes with his angels in Matthew 24:31.
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Part of the church will go apostate before Jesus comes to gather together
the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 1 Timothy 4:1).
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Jesus comes to gather together and marry the church after the sun and moon
are temporarily darkened (Matthew 24:29-31) and before he brings God's
wrath (Revelation 19:7,15).
---
Revelation 12:5-6 refers to the mid-trib catching up of the 144,000 male-
virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4-5).
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Obama isn't the Antichrist because the gematrial number of his name doesn't
equal 666 (Revelation 13:17b-18), and because he isn't from a country the
territory of which used to be part of one of the four Diadochian (Greek)
kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander (Daniel
8:8-9,21-25).
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Pre-trib doctrine isn't from the Bible. The Bible nowhere teaches or requires
a pre-trib rapture, but even expressly teaches against it (2 Thessalonians
2:1-8).
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The Antichrist may not claim to be Jesus, because he'll deny that Jesus is
the Christ (1 John 2:22). The False Prophet of the Antichrist (Revelation
19:20, 13:11-18) could claim to be Jesus reincarnated, and could claim that
Jesus isn't God but just a regular man. The Antichrist and his False Prophet
could claim that Lucifer is the Christ, for Lucifer is the morning star (Isaiah
14:12) and Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16). The Antichrist and
his False Prophet will bring the whole world into the worship of Lucifer the
dragon (Revelation 13:4).
The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12)
and became Satan (Luke 10:18), and Jesus has taken over the office of
morning star (Revelation 22:16). Jesus isn't only a man, but is God (John
1:1,14, 10:30).
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The Antichrist won't claim to be the God of the Bible, YHWH, but will
utterly revile YHWH (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:6). The Antichrist could
claim that he must be worshipped as God because he has become fully
indwelt by Lucifer, who he could claim is God. The Antichrist could say that
the man Jesus at his first coming was similarly worshipped as God (John
20:28) because he had become temporarily indwelt by Lucifer.
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The False Prophet's calling fire down from heaven to the earth to deceive
the world (Revelation 13:13-14, cf. Deuteronomy 13:1-3, Matthew 24:24)
will be like Elijah's calling fire down from heaven to bring Israel back into
the truth (1 Kings 18:37-39).
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Ezekiel chapters 38-39 won't happen until after the millennium (Revelation
20:7-9).
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Christians obey God's commandments (1 Thessalonians 4:2, John 14:21-24,
1 John 5:3, 2:3-4).
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The Antichrist will be a gnostic (1 John 4:3). So his reviling of YHWH
(Daniel 11:36) could be according to gnostic doctrine, whereby YHWH
isn't a myth, but a demiurge, a lesser god who fashiioned the material
universe, which gnostics consider evil in itself; they think that only spirit is
good.
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The Antichrist won't necessarily claim that he embodies the only god; he
could smply claim that he embodies the highest God, which he could claim
is Lucifer the dragon (Revelation 13:4). He could say that all men are gods
(cf. Psalms 82:6, John 10:34), just not as advanced yet as Lucifer.
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
this is the 144,000 and the gentiles that get saved during the Great Trib
1 cor 15:23-24 states three different resurrections afterwards in chapter 15 it states that different forms of glory determined by the Lord
we have antichrist right now... what you are discribing is the BEAST
The Beast ... the antichrist is never mentioned in revelations
oriential wedding
#1 the church is bethotal ... 2 cor 11:2
#2 Wedding party... Groom getting bride... Rapture... rev 4, 1 thes 4:16
#3 Wedding feast.. rev 19:9
we have it right now 1 john 5:11-13
OT saint have to wait till after the 2nd coming dan 12:2,11-12
the reason for Jacob trouble... mean Jews trouble... not the church
Gal 3:28 Jew and gentile no more in the body of Christ..
phil 3:20-21 Heavens are home
Jews home is on earth.. Matt 5:5
something we agree on ...amen
please.... stop ...To Matt 13:21 ... Matt 24:21, To Matt 24:9-10 ... 1 thes 5:1-3 , to 1 pt 4:12-13 ... james 1:2-12 notice Joy in vs 2 then earning a crown in vs 12 connect this verse to rev 4:4 completion
2 cor 5:21 ... since we believe we are Christ Body ... Jesus is the Head
grace
Please go to graceteaching.com
order the book about grace
order the book .... read it and quote it ... And I will send you the money to repay you
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I have been reading through this thread and some of you have some pretty crazy opinions that definitely have not come from scripture. I will simply say this anyone that promotes a version outside of the post trib return of Christ,resurrection of the just, and rapture of the living saints, they oppose the teachings of Jesus Paul and the Bible itself. Why would you oppose the word of God?
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